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 Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:45 pm
Enigma Master Andrew Ok now that I buy. Just throwing this out there but arent DBZ attacks planet busting because they have a negative effect with the planets core or something like that or is it Sheer power? That's an assumption, really, and no contextual proof supports it, despite what you might have heard.
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:47 pm
Enigma Master Andrew I'm not trying to b***h out of this debate by saying this or trying to go back on what I said but. I'm seeing this as more of a tie now depending on which of them does what when. I see it as comeing down to not physically but based on powers in which I believe it's a toss up although I must say 3 times out of five Goku would probably win. However if it came down to Physically just going blow for blow until they're both exaughsterd I see Superman winning the 3 times out of five then. Not really. Superman may be more booksmart then Goku, but Goku is supposed to be the most skilled fighter in his GALAXY. Never fails to mannoy me that people overlook the fact that Goku is supposed to be an innately talented Martial Arts Genius, able to shift and alter his fighting style instantaneously to counter his opponents. Sure he's goofy, but he's supposed to be the penultimate fighter as well, so we should really give hand to hand skill to Goku as well.
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:21 pm
I never said Superman had more H2H skill than Goku. I just said he'd be the last man standing meening he could take any Punch / kick Goku sends at him and get up for more. I'm also not saying that Goku would just completely overwhelm Superman off top either. He may not be the best martial artist in the Galaxy but hes no slouch at H2H either. Superman is not only Booksmart but hes also a a highly tactile and tricky fighter using everything around him to his advantage. Like Vegeta said these factors would cancel eachother out.
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:55 pm
Enigma Master Andrew I never said Superman had more H2H skill than Goku. I just said he'd be the last man standing meening he could take any Punch / kick Goku sends at him and get up for more. I'm also not saying that Goku would just completely overwhelm Superman off top either. He may not be the best martial artist in the Galaxy but hes no slouch at H2H either. Superman is not only Booksmart but hes also a a highly tactile and tricky fighter using everything around him to his advantage. Like Vegeta said these factors would cancel eachother out. Do you have any proof to support that? We're talking about Animated superman, right? I never really saw him do anything too technical, and if someone as sufficiently strong (goku) and sufficiently quick (goku again) were to use his trained abilities he could very well cleanly defeat Superman. Goku on his own might not be strong enough to break a bone, but superman's own momentum should do the trick nicely.
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:09 pm
Jerhien Enigma Master Andrew I never said Superman had more H2H skill than Goku. I just said he'd be the last man standing meening he could take any Punch / kick Goku sends at him and get up for more. I'm also not saying that Goku would just completely overwhelm Superman off top either. He may not be the best martial artist in the Galaxy but hes no slouch at H2H either. Superman is not only Booksmart but hes also a a highly tactile and tricky fighter using everything around him to his advantage. Like Vegeta said these factors would cancel eachother out. Do you have any proof to support that? We're talking about Animated superman, right? I never really saw him do anything too technical, and if someone as sufficiently strong (goku) and sufficiently quick (goku again) were to use his trained abilities he could very well cleanly defeat Superman. Goku on his own might not be strong enough to break a bone, but superman's own momentum should do the trick nicely. I'd have to dig up a few things from his own Series. You can take my word for it for now or not. Either way is cool. I never said he worked with Technology I said he was generally more intelligent than Goku.
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:38 pm
Sorry, I must have worded that wrong, when I said technical I meant it as "skilled", like skilled in combat? smile No problem, sorry about the confusion!
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:50 pm
Enigma Master Andrew Ok now that I buy. Just throwing this out there but arent DBZ attacks planet busting because they have a negative effect with the planets core or something like that or is it Sheer power? That's never really been discussed within the series. All we know is that an attack of that calibur can bust a planet one way or another.
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 3:53 pm
Enigma Master Andrew I'm not trying to b***h out of this debate by saying this or trying to go back on what I said but. I'm seeing this as more of a tie now depending on which of them does what when. I see it as comeing down to not physically but based on powers in which I believe it's a toss up although I must say 3 times out of five Goku would probably win. However if it came down to Physically just going blow for blow until they're both exaughsterd I see Superman winning the 3 times out of five then. I agree with Goku posessing more power . . . but how do you figure that Superman comes out on top in a physical struggle? We know that Goku's physically stronger. We know that he hits harder. And we know that they have near equal endurance. Don't see how the physical aspect works out in Supes' favor.
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 4:48 pm
I'll put it to you this way. Superman withstanding 100 times worse than the worse pain hes ever experienced (Kryptonite) And still being able to move and even attempt to fight it off is a sign of how truly immense his will power is . Now don't get me wrong Goku has alot of will power as well but Superman is just shown to surpass that. Even if Superman's worst pain was getting his finger pricked he would've still gone through pain Goku can only imagine. What I mean is Superman as long as he has conciousness still be able will himself back up where Goku wouldn't. Again Goku's no slob in the WP. How'd you put it Vegeta? Saiyan Master Vegeta 'It's good, but not good enough' Jerhien I was the first person in this thread to say that Goku had more experience in hand to hand than Superman...
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:05 pm
You are not seeing the point, we are assuming, still.
Is there EVER a point where Goku can fight, but his will isn't strong enough?
NO.
Yet you want to make your example more effective, and make him sound like a whiny b***h.
Well news flash, hes not.
I know it's hard to accept but hes one of the best fighters ever, in all aspects.
I never said he couldn't be beaten, but he is a good one.
Goku's willpower to kill Cell was so great, he left behind his family, wife, child, friends, home, and lifestyle, to try and stop him.
He gave it all up, in a heartbeat just to try and win, to try and accomplish his mission.
Superman was fighting to live.
Goku was fighting for his family and friends.
I will admit your example is good,
but it has no physical backing, there is no way to measure pain.
You can preach to me ALL day, there is no way to fairly measure pain, so I wouldn't buy it.
AND it is his mental capacity, not his physical one.
That doesn't mean that Superman can TAKE that much damage and live, just that he has the mental capacity to survive it.
So basically, we've established that Supes will come after Goku with everything he's got.
But I must ask you this, did you honestly think Goku wouldn't do the same?
I am not just trying to bash your points, I am telling you why I do not accept them.
I acknowledge that Superman is crazy good, and comic book Supes would wipe the floor with Goku 9/10 times. But animated Superman...Sorry.
We can debate some more, I just felt you should know my P.O.V.
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:12 pm
@ Andrew:
That still doesn't justify your claim of physcial strength. Supes still falls below Goku in that catagory.
And as for durability, just like endurance, I would put them on an even level. Body durability and mental durability are EQUALLY intertwined. Meaning one can't accomplish a durability feat without parallel mental durability.
Goku being able to fight, and win with a see-through hole in his chest, a broken leg, and a hole through his arm seems equally impressive to Superman's feat with Kryptonite . . .
. . . Therefore, placing them at an equal mental durability level. And as Rikeen said, we've NEVER seen Goku give up under any circumstances, including facing enemies that are stronger than himself. Meaning he won't give up against Superman, no matter what scenario he is placed in.
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:33 pm
See... Superman has given up before to save lives of pretty much everyone on Earth Surrendering to Darkseid. I'm not trying to put Goku out of character but you guys are making it sound like he puts himself before the people.
Vegeta I get what you're saying but I'm not convinced. Let me put it another way. Aside from the agony matrix Superman and Goku are about even.. But I've never seen Goku take 950 times the pain he experienced in that fight that's all I'm saying. Yes Goku is stronger but I'm not seeing him taking Superman out in an exchange. Stronger doesn't necessarily win a fight as I'm sure you know. Are you now saying that Goku would take Superman out with one punch?
Rikeen after reading the first 3 sentences of your post I decided to stop there and let you calm down. Dude It's just a debate... It's not that Serious I'm just trying to have fun..
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:37 pm
Lol okay, but I have a feeling you read it just because.
Im just saying, that its being used in a way that it doesn't fit.
The agony matrix doesn't prove that he can SURVIVE an attack that strong (physically), are we agreeing on that?
If not, then we have about 100 more pages to go before this debate is anywhere near over. (For either side)
PS: It's my birthday razz
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:49 pm
No I just think you've misunderstood. My entire basis on Superman winning was both of them going at Eachother with Everything they've got. Niether holding back thier strength. I dont think it would take too long for them to realize that niether is a pushover. I'm still seriously thinking that over about the Agony matrix so forgive me If I'll have to get back to you on that.
Another Question of mine. I know there are tons of Goku vs Superman threads. Has there ever been a Goku Superman teamed up thread?
P.S. Happy Birthday! biggrin
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 5:53 pm
Enigma Master Andrew See... Superman has given up before to save lives of pretty much everyone on Earth Surrendering to Darkseid. I'm not trying to put Goku out of character but you guys are making it sound like he puts himself before the people. Vegeta I get what you're saying but I'm not convinced. Let me put it another way. Aside from the agony matrix Superman and Goku are about even.. But I've never seen Goku take 950 times the pain he experienced in that fight that's all I'm saying. Yes Goku is stronger but I'm not seeing him taking Superman out in an exchange. Stronger doesn't necessarily win a fight as I'm sure you know. Are you now saying that Goku would take Superman out with one punch? Rikeen after reading the first 3 sentences of your post I decided to stop there and let you calm down. Dude It's just a debate... It's not that Serious I'm just trying to have fun.. Woah . . . hold up. Goku putting himself before the people? I didn't think those words in that order were possible in the same sentence. Wait . . . they aren't. Remember when Goku sacraficed his life to save Earth from Raditz? Remember when he fought to the brink of death to save Earth from Vegeta? Remember when he defeated Frieza to save the galaxy from a madman's rule? Remember when he teleported himself and Cell away to save Earth? Remember when he saved the galaxy from Buu's reign of terror? And no, I never said that Goku delivers a one-punch knock-out. Please don't put words in my mouth. Let's look at the facts, again . . . Goku is stronger. Goku is faster. They are equally durable. They have equal endurance. Superman has more intelligence. Goku has more experience. Notice how Supes has only got intelligence on Goku? And yet, that is cancelled out by Goku's experience, making those two catagories unnecessary. Leaving it at Goku = 2. Supes = 0. Tie = 2. Happy Birthday Rikeen biggrin -------- Side note: Your suggestion of a Goku + Supes VS thread would be sweet. Also, a team Goku vs team TAS Superman thread would be pretty awesome as well!
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