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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:06 pm
*AlsoRubsChin*
Mmm. Well if you need more of those references I could always introduce you to my good friend Austin.
Striker, Get Down Here!
Hael Needs To Make Jokes At Your Expense!
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:26 pm
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:02 pm
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:39 pm
Lollipop Fiend Power playing by far has more BS attached to it simply because theoretical physics is obviously too complex for all of us to really understand. BWI makes a good case study of this. I disagree. Power playing and Martial arts suffer from the exact same problems, people misusing something that can overly take advantage of it. It doesn't matter if you're trying to force-twist someone's arm or sink them into a pit of sand; you can't expect normal or paranormal physics to work unless you can back it up well. As far as people abusing powers in places not regulated? Welcome to roleplaying. It's not thing new, and it'll never change. Before it was Narutards it was DBZ freaks, before it was DBZ freaks it was Final Fantasy Ultima spells, before it was Final Fantasy it was a level 39 Wizard casting a supercharged fireball from D&D 2nd ed. Martial arts is no different in roleplaying when it comes to the general concepts. Pressure points, incredible anatomy knowledge that even professional doctor's don't know, the ability to alter your grip/punch/motion bordering precognition. All it does is make it less flashy to claim 'realism'. You're going to run into more freaks on both sides of the spectrum the longer you end up roleplaying. And after as many years as I've been in it, I can't hold bias to favor one technique or another, because it all boils down to the same basic role play problems and player conceptions. That's why the only place it matters is where it's regulated. In which case, you play by the rules and preferences of your hosts. There are proper and improper ways to do both. Powers get the bulk of the stigma only because they're more flashy, and little kids who don't know how to play the game tend flock to the more. Oh, and BWI is a poor example of roleplaying in general, on top of being power idiots. I could walk Kalar into there, flat out godmod, and still best all the roleplaying they consider 'legitimate'.
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:44 pm
And I'd have to disagree with the mere fact that martial artists are still bound by anatomy to what they can do and can not do. Sure you have increases in the possibility because it is a fantasy world, but the rules that govern over it are much more strict than power playing.
When you start getting to the tier of character that can create and collapse planes, then you have nothing but problems that go way beyond "I don't think you can punch that way." Why? Simply because you now have to try to prove that some actual theory is applicable to whatever universe you're in.
It's really easy to have people chime in and judge if something can and can't happen in martial arts. It's near impossible to have somebody adequately judge somebody doing an attack based off of some obscure interpretation of sting theory. And the complexity with such theories is why power playing is far worst than martial artists. Most everybody can understand what a punch is and what it does if it connects with X target. Most people honestly don't understand the s**t behind the higher tier characters, and those who pretend they do, like in BWI, just fail. But since they can offer some explanation, even if it is wrong, they do have somewhat of a following.
But it's definitely a different problem. People understand martial arts, they understand anatomy. Is it feasible that an actual person be able to target pressure points and s**t in an actual fight? Sure, in fantasy world where people's stats are increased. They're not really misusing anything or taking advantage of anyone by doing this. People generally don't understand theoretical physics, and so they do misuse it. Not like they can use it to take advantage of someone though, because for every theory that some random RPer comes up with to "bend time and expand space" I can easily say I'm Haruhi, I'm bored, and your world no longer exists.
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:02 pm
Quote: And I'd have to disagree with the mere fact that martial artists are still bound by anatomy to what they can do and can not do. Sure you have increases in the possibility because it is a fantasy world, but the rules that govern over it are much more strict than power playing. However, It all boils down to abuse of those rules. The more "Strict" those rules, the more those rules get horribly construed through interpretation. Likewise, when the rules are too loose, people go crazy with them. They may be opposite ends of the spectrum, but they're the same extreme when measured by 'abusing your limits as a fair roleplayer'. This emphasis the importance of an establish set of limits in both directions as well as a third party overseer. It becomes the responsibility of the judges to make sure these things stay in check no matter WHAT the context, so you don't get people using Planar Physics and superpower abilities in any following that truly seeks a respectable level of competition. In the Bloodbath, I blatantly God Mod. But I don't try to justify that fact as something respectable in character either, I'm either enforcing rules or building story, and in that it gets respected. There's little to no respect for the BWI's following, so even if there are people there it really doesn't matter what a few isolated groups think. As I said before, you're never going to get rid of those types on either side. Quote: But it's definitely a different problem. People understand martial arts, they understand anatomy. Is it feasible that an actual person be able to target pressure points and s**t in an actual fight? Sure, in fantasy world where people's stats are increased. They're not really misusing anything or taking advantage of anyone by doing this. People generally don't understand theoretical physics, and so they do misuse it. See, here's the source of the disagreement. People really don't understand martial arts unless they're a martial artist. People also really don't understand anatomy unless they've actually researched it on professional level. It's mainly based off of brief-look ups and fandom, just like any Anime or video game. I've seen words like "Kendo" thrown around like it's an actual field sword fighting technique, and not a discipline that generally focuses on the mental decline and 'fencing' style sport. I've also seen people try the "Five Step pressure point of heart explosion" seen in Kill Bill. So just because it deals with things less unrealistic, doesn't mean it's easier from a base-roleplay standard, and this is speaking as someone who's judged fights before. Then you get into questions of execution, If I throw a fireball at you I can specify the range, heat, etc, ahead of time in my profile. When it happens, you can make a defense. Those general concepts aren't hard. It's when people try to over complicate it in a manner like "planar physics" that things get convoluted, and that's EASY to disqualify before something like a tournament starts. When it's too general and convoluted, then you start getting into difficulties. Martial arts on the other hand, have the exact same benefits and problems. Basic martial theory, like magic, is easily understood, but when you get into complex situations like grappling, internal anatomy, and pressure points, you open up a whole can of worms. You can try to justify the 'realism' of 'physics' and SCIENCE all you like, but when someone tries to paralyze a persons arm by attempting to jab their thumb on an under-arm pressure point smaller than the size of a dime the chaos of conflicting body moments, I'm going to be just as 'realistic' and say you missed your mark, purely on the fact that there's next to no fing chance that you're going to succeed in that attempt just because you know of its existence. (especially when said pressure point is deep into the underarm and generally needs to be reached with a knife.) --------------------------------------------------------------- tl;dl version and conclusion: Overly complicated physical combat, becomes a no-u fest. Overly convoluted magical combat becomes a DBZ episode. Both are terribly, and equally horrible. But to say you don't understand what a fireball does, or an ice shield or wall or "Magic Missile" over complex anatomy (especially in a fantasy environment when not all of your opponents are human) is just plain untrue. It all should boil down to this basic rule, no matter what your preferences are: Keep It Simple, Stupid. That's where places like BWI and Rock Fist fail. It's also where some of your Tournament fights fail. No matter where, there is a level where you just have to sit back and say "Ok, this is getting too convoluted" and back off. In my opinion it actually is hard for physical fighters nowadays to do that due to pride associated in being 'better than those metas' or having disagreeing perceptions of where and whens on combat.
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:24 pm
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:29 pm
ITT: s**t I already said earlier. Everything can be done badly. There's some things that just cannot be done well or fairly for most intents and purposes (Penance Stare, MIND CONTROL JUTSU, et cetera) except for storyline stuff, but a majority of the things people find inherently bad aren't. They're just being done wrong. Example: Most anime rip-offs. H2H. Psionics. If you do it right (see: my fight(s) with Omi) it can be fun. If you do it wrong, it looks like a pile of hammered s**t. Much like any aborted roleplay scene.
Anyways, on that nerve thing, you can actually hit it just above the elbow, at the base of the triceps. That's where the nerve cord 'inserts' into the joint to spread nerves down into the forearm and hand. It's the "funny bone." Hit it hard enough and the arm will be paralyzed from the waist down. That also happens to be the easiest breaking point on the entire arm, aside from the fingers. You can hit the same nerve cord (******** you, correct terminology) by punching someone in the inside of the elbow joint or the forearm, as opposed to higher in the triceps (where it nestles between/beneath the three heads of said muscle) or above the elbow.
Or you can just cut the bicep tendon that helps with supination of the wrist and curling of the arm, which you can feel if you flex your bicep half way and put your fingers against the inside of your elbow joint. That hard thing is the tendon being flexed. Cut it and you cannot move your arm whatsoever at the elbow, which makes it pretty useless.
Of course, the above monologue really has nothing to do with the actual discussion, which I already expounded upon earlier. I just felt like expanding on that because I just bumped my funny-bone against my desk.
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:58 pm
I'm too tired to actually read all that. What's going on?
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:58 pm
Quote: Anyways, on that nerve thing, you can actually hit it just above the elbow, at the base of the triceps. That's where the nerve cord 'inserts' into the joint to spread nerves down into the forearm and hand. It's the "funny bone." Hit it hard enough and the arm will be paralyzed from the waist down. That also happens to be the easiest breaking point on the entire arm, aside from the fingers. You can hit the same nerve cord (******** you, correct terminology) by punching someone in the inside of the elbow joint or the forearm, as opposed to higher in the triceps (where it nestles between/beneath the three heads of said muscle) or above the elbow. I was referring to the one in the armpit, which by my understanding is about the same nerve cluster, just higher up. But I only have a general knowledge of that, enough to look it up if I need to know more. But on the topic. The stigmas become a problem on both sides mainly because it's so difficult to find people who do it properly, or the ones that do get surrounded around those who can't due to people being fans of or followers of that said one rare gem. It's like trying to find milk chocolate in a sea full of s**t. Even if you do acquire it, it'd take quite some washing to get rid of the lingering taste of the crap it was in.
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:02 pm
By rules I mean applied physics, which are more strict than any of the theory that backs power playing. I don't see how someone can misinterpret or abuse principles in a fight such as "What goes up must come down" unless there is a fundamental flaw in their character design. This happens to be the case most of the time anyway.
But we'll go with the assumption that an RP has some set rules of combat beyond just what is and what isn't.
If the rules are more strict then how are there any misinterpretations? The most that can happen is something that isn't covered in the rules happens and then an additional rule would be added after a judgment call from the GM. The more detail that is covered by having "strict" rules then the less room there is for misinterpretations, more ways to solve a conflict, and more reasons to kick somebody who can't get it through their head.
There's not much to not understand about martial arts. You hit something, something happens. Here are some effective means(techniques) to read your goal. Here are some optimal ways to balance offense and defense. So what if somebody uses "Kendo" incorrectly? It's no different from other people making less subtle but still stupid word choices.
And honestly, you don't need to know every little detail about anatomy either. Just like in real life, I'm sure somebody who's never even looked at the muscles of the body would try to hit somebody in the head. What isn't there to understand about this? You don't really need to know all the functions of the kidney to be able to effectively say "this is my target". A brief google search on effects caused by strikes to the kidney would suffice.
Internal anatomy is not complex when you're simply just fighting. You're not trying to diagnose a disease or some s**t. Pressure points aren't complicated either as long as people understand that striking pressure points is not effective on all people. Paralysis and heart explosion techniques can easily work if X strike hits Y pressure point and Z fictional energy is transferred. Instead of just thinking that it's dumb, realize that all they're doing is describing a target area. The area might be a bit smaller than say "I punch you in the gut" but for most characters if they weren't confident they could make the shot then they probably wouldn't do it.
If you're fighting against a character who's style is based on attacking pressure points or whatever points of a similar nature for heart explosion or paralysis, then it should be safe to assume that just maybe they might be fast enough and have enough experience to land their mark relatively accurately even if your character is busy moving. If you were fighting against someone playing Kenshiro would you really make that argument against them?
Oh, and fireballs and ice shields and s**t are far from simple. I guess it's simple enough if you're asking me to just imagine that it all of a sudden appeared out of no where, but I don't see why you can't do the same if my character decides to destroy a particular universe? Are you thinking that because the power behind the attack is more awesome it somehow needs an larger explanation for its justification? I mean, your fireball can kill me too. How did you create it? What's keeping its form? How can you control it? Oh, by your will..? Well, I can create and destroy things through my will, how is that any less valid?
You're making it too complex for yourself probably because of issues of pride and you feel that characters of such a magnitude are unfair. And they are when not played against either God tier characters, you're a fool for putting anything weaker against them.
I could honestly make any simple magic user frustrated with the thousand questions game. But for some reason when somebody does something big they are forced to try and explain themselves, which leads to bullshit explanations because the actual theory behind it all can be summed up as bullshit as well. On the other hand, when something "small" happens like a fireball, we normally don't perceive it as a threat and suspend belief a bit. Even though a normal person using magic to create a fireball can honestly be more complicated in explanation than a God willing a world away. The only reason that happens? The defender can't figure out what the ******** else to do. That's pretty much why any argument in RP fights comes about in the end besides blatant rule breaking.
Unless you're Lina Inverse...
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:05 pm
The Darth Vizzle -confusing stuff for all those who are currently half sleep- I would like to ask of you a favor. I am doing something new with this character that I have never done before, that being H2H. The majority of my past characters were all mid to long range with skills in swordplay or magics. If you found the time could you read my current match and grade my current combat ability. I don't need a what you did wrong or right being that this match hasn't been locked yet but i just wanna know how im doing since I'm kinda new to H2H fighting.
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:23 pm
Kalar Meadia Quote: Anyways, on that nerve thing, you can actually hit it just above the elbow, at the base of the triceps. That's where the nerve cord 'inserts' into the joint to spread nerves down into the forearm and hand. It's the "funny bone." Hit it hard enough and the arm will be paralyzed from the waist down. That also happens to be the easiest breaking point on the entire arm, aside from the fingers. You can hit the same nerve cord (******** you, correct terminology) by punching someone in the inside of the elbow joint or the forearm, as opposed to higher in the triceps (where it nestles between/beneath the three heads of said muscle) or above the elbow. I was referring to the one in the armpit, which by my understanding is about the same nerve cluster, just higher up. But I only have a general knowledge of that, enough to look it up if I need to know more. But on the topic. The stigmas become a problem on both sides mainly because it's so difficult to find people who do it properly, or the ones that do get surrounded around those who can't due to people being fans of or followers of that said one rare gem. It's like trying to find milk chocolate in a sea full of s**t. Even if you do acquire it, it'd take quite some washing to get rid of the lingering taste of the crap it was in. It's by and large the same, yes. Really, they all lead to the spine, so it's just a matter of where and when.  The median nerve is where two cords twine or intersect at the elbow. That's why it's so sensitive. Some of the nerve cords are lodged deep in the musculature, so they're hard to hit, but the median is by far one of the easiest to hit. You can hit another nerve in the forearm that will make your hand involuntarily close. Grasp your forearm around halfway between the elbow and wrist, and apply pressure to the underside of the arm with your thumb. It'll hurt a bit, feel kinda numb-ish, and your fingers ought to 'jump' a bit. It's a mixture of applying pressure to the nerves, and hitting the right muscle(s). Hit someone with a frogged fist, and they will drop a weapon if they have one. 'Course, Deitric doesn't know that, though he has cut someone's bicep tendon when they tried to choke him out. Inadvertently stabbed himself in the chin/lip though. His knowledge is much more basic and "common sense" for what you would expect from a fighter like him. Vash: I can try. I was supposed to look over another fight too. Here after I post, I'll see if I can if my meds haven't hit me. It's pretty common sense when you set some guidelines for your character's athletic ability (aka, are they short, tall, strong, fast, etc) and figure out a few other things.
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:36 pm
Remember what I said about getting too convoluted about the details.
K.I.S.S. is a rule to live by if you're going to not become an obsessive cynical 'meta hater' in a role playing world.
First off: Specialization.
It's fine when you say your character has a LISTED ability to know and strike at certain pressure points that may cause said conditions, and that is the effective sum of their fighting style. That knowledge in and of itself should be listed as something equivalent to knowing how to launch a fireball.
But it's just the same abuse for an MMA fighter to attempt this when it's not listed specifically in his profile, as a person who's not listed a fireball in their spell list to use one.
The problem is that you are not in the strict forms of reality when you're making a roleplay. Something simple as "reaching for someone's thumb" can be as complex as "landing a fireball blast" here if people have opposing justifications on why their ability lands, or why their opponent justifies their escape.
If you think the strict rules of physical combat cannot be abused, you need to look at your HtH fights a lot closer. Most end up in no-u fights that have to be ruled upon directly, and even then become up to the interpretation of a third person. When it comes down to the workload of a judge, a predetermined-well written magical ability is far more clear than a convoluted melee exchange or grapple, because you essentially suspend disbelief the moment you accept the ability in said person's profile, and there's often a simple system when it comes to comparing the 'powers' of different abilities established by said hosts and judges beforehand..
And that's the important part here: suspending disbelief. That goes for Melee as well as Magic.
For all intense and purposes, Lina Inverse ( <3 I'm such a fan) herself could walk into a tournament, provided her abilities were approved upon. Something as powerful as perhaps "Dragon Slave" would take like a five-round charge, which she'd never really get off. But her other abilities would be well usable, and well defined.
And speaking of ability tiers and powers, that's when the rule of equivalency exchange comes into play. You're right when Fireballs don't just spawn out of thin air without some source. But there are multiple ways one could form them. If you're Lina Inverse, you're a sorceress, there's a chant, be it physical or mental, and some of your spiritual power is spent in that exchange, which A. Takes time (read: posts) to gather, and time to use. B. Has a certain exhaustion point depending on energy source.
(If you're a D&D wizard, there's spell components magical items, etc. That have it's own versions of the above A and B.)
These are determined by fight judges with individual profiles and overall rulings for admission. Once that's accepted by the host, disbelief is suspended as the rule of the hosts is the reality of the world you're playing in.
And that's the hump most "Realism" fans need to get over. The ideas of Applied Physics just don't exist here as an absolute force. Reason: When all is said and done, all this is is words and pictures on an internet forum board. Even if a host enforces the rule of "True Earth", meaning everything that applies in the real world applies here and nothing that doesn't works, you're going to wind into problems.
Problems of contrasting perceptions. Problems of timing. Problems of gray areas of physics. Problems of accounting for things unexplained even in the real world.
A judge could make a ruling in this rule set that can even be incorrect due to underdeveloped or misinformed logic.
Einstein even said so itself when writing a thesis about the mysteries of physics "Mankind can never truly grasp the whole of physics. For every rule that we have 'proven' may have an undiscovered exception."(paraphrased)
So again, it boils back down to suspending disbelief, and having a fair judging system.
Beyond that, it's just pointless details that are often unneeded in most roleplaying settings, so long as you're respectful to one another.
Weither or not you prefer one or another is dependent upon your experiences. But don't try to hold one above the other for any reason, because again, we're all just playing pretend here.
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Posted: Sat Aug 01, 2009 12:12 am
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