[18:15] kuraikarp: I haz a question.
[18:15] RabidChipmunk380: Yeah?
[18:15] kuraikarp: Where is this grand emotions vs. logic argument that you promised me? <3
[18:15] RabidChipmunk380: Ah, yes, of course.
[18:15] RabidChipmunk380: Okay, so, where was I?
[18:15] kuraikarp: o_o Uh.
[18:15] kuraikarp: ...Uh.
[18:16] kuraikarp: ...You told me that you were going to bring it up? XD
[18:16] RabidChipmunk380: Ah, yes.
[18:16] RabidChipmunk380: How the veritable cocktail of mind and heart, of logic and passion, is how one should truly go about things.
[18:16] RabidChipmunk380: Now, let's take... Gahndi.
[18:16] RabidChipmunk380: A guy who put himself through all manner of torture from society, to stand up for a cause, correct?
[18:17] kuraikarp: -nod-
[18:17] RabidChipmunk380: Logic would dictate that one would not want to put the body through such hardship.
[18:17] RabidChipmunk380: But, emotion would prompt one to do just that, to stand up for one's beliefs.
[18:17] RabidChipmunk380: So, the combination of them both allowed Gahndi to perservere, and now he's a world-renowned figure of peace.
[18:18] RabidChipmunk380: Okay, let's go for an example that hits a little closer to home.
[18:18] RabidChipmunk380: FEF' Rei.
[18:18] RabidChipmunk380: FEF's.
[18:18] kuraikarp:
surprised [18:18] RabidChipmunk380: He's a kid that, before coming to Learania, was driven by logic, and his desire to better himself.
[18:18] RabidChipmunk380: When the events first start.
[18:19] RabidChipmunk380: He's a being of pure emotion.
[18:19] RabidChipmunk380: Doing whatever he wants, as long as it suits his needs.
[18:19] RabidChipmunk380: With no thought towards the consequences.
[18:19] RabidChipmunk380: Leading the Rebellion, despite knowing it could kill him.
[18:19] RabidChipmunk380: Risking life and limb left and right.
[18:19] RabidChipmunk380: And he still comes out on top, barely.
[18:19] kuraikarp: -nod-
[18:19] RabidChipmunk380: But, what really does it for him is...
[18:19] RabidChipmunk380: THe other people.
[18:20] RabidChipmunk380: The ones with the logic to keep everything going when he's off in his own little world.
[18:20] RabidChipmunk380: Now, we go to Christmas.
[18:20] kuraikarp: -nod-?
[18:20] RabidChipmunk380: Emotion has gone farther into control, with Zelos being at the helm.
[18:21] RabidChipmunk380: Because really, where's the logic in bringing in a crossover that breaks the game in ability anyway?
[18:21] kuraikarp: XD
[18:21] RabidChipmunk380: Emotion is at its peak, with the end having Rei and Nils have their little lolfest.
[18:21] RabidChipmunk380: Then, the calm.
[18:21] RabidChipmunk380: After that, we have Easter.
[18:21] RabidChipmunk380: Here, logic begins to fight back.
[18:22] RabidChipmunk380: Rei turns evil, fights tooth and nail to ensure his own survival, regardless of the cost.
[18:22] RabidChipmunk380: In the end, the pure logic behind saving one's own skin without regard for others is what does him in.
[18:22] RabidChipmunk380: He leaves that experience with a new balance.
[18:22] RabidChipmunk380: Zelos, the embodiment of emotions, was gone.
[18:23] RabidChipmunk380: All that was left was a new Rei, one with more logic, with some leftover impulse from the Swordsman.
[18:23] RabidChipmunk380: Then, the anny comes around.
[18:23] RabidChipmunk380: Rei goes with his gut, with emotions, with hope, in his mercy towards Mika, and that leads to his downfall.
[18:23] RabidChipmunk380: Then, we segue over to Kyros.
[18:23] RabidChipmunk380: Another being, one that's a mixture of both emotion and logic, in different capacities.
[18:24] RabidChipmunk380: When he's not insane, he's a rational, loving man, always looking to provide for those close to him.
[18:24] RabidChipmunk380: When he's lost it, he's pure emotion, pure rage, taking the most direct route towards victory.
[18:24] kuraikarp: -nod-
[18:25] RabidChipmunk380: And at the end, he returns to the mixture of both. The logic to see what he's doing to the children who were still alive and to himself, and the emotions that drove him, were what prompted him to be so accepting of his fate.
[18:25] RabidChipmunk380: Now, with that over, let's go to Halloween 09.
[18:25] RabidChipmunk380: Rei appears to be pure logic, right?
[18:26] RabidChipmunk380: One concerned with only his studies, with making sure that when the time comes, he can rend the earth asunder with one simple incantation.
[18:26] RabidChipmunk380: But, of course, that's not the case.
[18:26] RabidChipmunk380: He shows compassion towards the twins, shows rage towards Roy.
[18:26] RabidChipmunk380: And now, let's look at a few of YOUR characters.
[18:27] RabidChipmunk380: Give me ONE example of one that's pure logic or pure emotion.
[18:27] RabidChipmunk380: And a computer doesn't count.
[18:27] RabidChipmunk380: Knowing you, you've played one... XD
[18:27] kuraikarp: XD
[18:27] kuraikarp: I've played quite a few.
[18:27] kuraikarp: Elise.
[18:27] kuraikarp: Pure emotion. There is no logic.
[18:28] RabidChipmunk380: "I want to see what that noise is, so I'm going to follow it!
biggrin "
[18:28] RabidChipmunk380: There's logic, it's just really, really simple.
[18:28] kuraikarp: Hahahaha! XD
[18:28] kuraikarp: Okay, then. Let me think...
[18:28] kuraikarp: Ah, yes. Emeralda.
[18:29] kuraikarp: A being of pure logic. There were no emotions to be had, after a partial lobotomy rendered her unable to truly 'feel' anything.
[18:29] kuraikarp: A biological computer. A cold, unfeeling computer of evidence and logic.
[18:29] RabidChipmunk380: ******** loophole.
[18:29] kuraikarp: You asked. X
[18:29] kuraikarp: XD*
[18:29] RabidChipmunk380: Okay, ASIDE from her.
[18:29] RabidChipmunk380: One that COULD feel emotions or use logic, but chooses not to.
[18:30] RabidChipmunk380: And if she COULD use emotions, she would. D<
[18:30] kuraikarp: Hm...
[18:30] kuraikarp: Ah. Vanessa from the Oubliette.
[18:31] kuraikarp: Dumb as a brick. Didn't think. For her, everything was about a pure, unfettered reaction.
[18:31] RabidChipmunk380: Uh-huh.
[18:31] RabidChipmunk380: But was she the type that would defend those she cared about?
[18:31] RabidChipmunk380: Even the idiots have personal ties, after all.
[18:31] kuraikarp: ...Cared about?
[18:31] RabidChipmunk380: ((DAMN, WOMAN. Stop having such ******** up characters, really!))
[18:31] kuraikarp: Hon. She was a prostitute.
[18:31] RabidChipmunk380: o_e
[18:32] kuraikarp: She didn't give a s**t about anyone.
[18:32] RabidChipmunk380: Obviously, she cared about herself.
[18:32] kuraikarp: ((XD))
[18:32] kuraikarp: Nope. Not really.
[18:32] kuraikarp: She just... lived life.
[18:32] RabidChipmunk380: ...
[18:32] RabidChipmunk380: And if she was faced with a situation that could kill her, would she find some way out to the best of her ability, or glomp the death source?
[18:33] kuraikarp: Reaction. Reaction. Reaction.
[18:33] kuraikarp: She never thought. She never weighed options.
[18:33] kuraikarp: It's why she died so quickly.
[18:33] RabidChipmunk380: Pft.
[18:33] RabidChipmunk380: Okay, and that works in my favor, lookit that~
[18:33] kuraikarp: In what sense?
surprised [18:33] kuraikarp: She ended up being a being of pure emotion that dropped like a stone.
[18:34] RabidChipmunk380: Characters that are so much on one end or the other of the logic/emotion axis aren't truly going to enjoy life, in a typical sense.
[18:34] RabidChipmunk380: Vanessa does whatever she wants with no thought. So, she ends up offing herself.
[18:34] kuraikarp: Emeralda made the most of life.
surprised She was quite successful.
[18:34] RabidChipmunk380: Sure, she probably loved sex, but she still likely died a painful death.
[18:34] kuraikarp: Offing herself? Oh, dear, no.
[18:34] RabidChipmunk380: Was Emerelda ever HAPPY, though?
[18:34] kuraikarp: She didn't off herself.
[18:34] RabidChipmunk380: She caused her death through her own actions.
[18:35] kuraikarp: She was stupid.
[18:35] RabidChipmunk380: Okay, you're pulling me away from my point.
[18:35] kuraikarp: ?
[18:35] RabidChipmunk380: If you're one end of the spectrum, you can't truly be happy.
[18:35] RabidChipmunk380: Emerelda was a robot.
[18:35] RabidChipmunk380: She couldn't feel joy or sadness, she only felt apathy towards her world.
[18:36] RabidChipmunk380: I don't know the character, but I bet she ended up alone in the end, or at least with a man that she didn't care for one bit.
[18:36] RabidChipmunk380: And Vanessa ended up dead.
[18:36] RabidChipmunk380: Now, let's take Teifi, a prime example of the combination needed.
[18:36] RabidChipmunk380: Motherly to a fault, of course.
[18:36] RabidChipmunk380: She had the emotion required to be a mother.
[18:36] RabidChipmunk380: She had the logic required to fight.
[18:37] kuraikarp: And she ended up dead. o_o
[18:37] RabidChipmunk380: She had the emotion needed to want children, to care for others.
[18:37] RabidChipmunk380: She had the logic she needed to steal children from others.
[18:37] RabidChipmunk380: She died a planned death, lest you forget.
[18:37] kuraikarp: But she did die.
smile [18:37] RabidChipmunk380: But death is inevitable, of course.
[18:37] RabidChipmunk380: But she was truly happy with her life, wouldn't you say?
[18:38] RabidChipmunk380: She had an adopted family of heroes she loved.
[18:38] RabidChipmunk380: A crazed axeman that was essentially her husband.
[18:38] kuraikarp: Happy? In a sense. But unfulfilled, in the long run.
[18:38] RabidChipmunk380: An age-old shapeshifter that was her oldest son, and so on.
[18:38] RabidChipmunk380: Unfulfilled because she was a zombie, because she was brough tback to life after it was so forcefully taken away.
[18:39] RabidChipmunk380: If things took their natural course in her life, she would likely have died fulfilled, in a sense.
[18:39] RabidChipmunk380: SHe couldn't have her own kids, but she sure as hell managed.
[18:39] RabidChipmunk380: When the Heroes were back in Ye Olde Learania, she was happy, eh?
[18:39] RabidChipmunk380: Before they all were getting killed off.
[18:40] RabidChipmunk380: Back when they were just a bunch of battle-capable compatriots, brought together by unseen forces.
[18:40] kuraikarp: Until, you know, they slaughtered innocents. <3
[18:40] RabidChipmunk380: Before then. >_>
[18:40] RabidChipmunk380: That's part of the Getting Killed Off thing,
[18:40] kuraikarp:
surprised [18:41] kuraikarp: Truly? I'd like to think the slaughter came before death.
[18:41] RabidChipmunk380: It did.
[18:41] RabidChipmunk380: But I'm lumping their downfall all into one section.
[18:41] RabidChipmunk380: BEFORE THEIR DOWNFALL.
[18:41] RabidChipmunk380: She was happy, right?
[18:41] RabidChipmunk380: She was adored by a continent, had her own family, had money, love, everything one could want.
[18:41] kuraikarp: Because of a promise that was eventually proven faulty.
smile [18:42] kuraikarp: An empty promise and a bribe.
[18:42] kuraikarp: Is that happiness?
[18:42] kuraikarp: Or being used?
[18:42] RabidChipmunk380: Well, if they'd not been picked off one by one, they'd have beaten Loki, I'm sure.
[18:42] RabidChipmunk380: And then she would get what she was promised.
[18:42] RabidChipmunk380: But the plot dictated that it would not be, so it was not.
[18:42] kuraikarp: ...ONE DAY, I will make a character that will die happy. XD
[18:42] RabidChipmunk380: Inorite.
[18:43] RabidChipmunk380: THe twins, maybe? XD
[18:43] kuraikarp: And one that ISN'T totally apeshit in one way or another.
[18:43] RabidChipmunk380: Assuming they ever die!
[18:43] RabidChipmunk380: *will totally have Rei watch them LIKE A HAWK KING to make sure they don't die*
biggrin [18:43] kuraikarp:
surprised [18:43] kuraikarp: You really like 'em, don't you?
[18:43] kuraikarp: The little delusional sonofabitches. x3
[18:43] RabidChipmunk380: Nope, not at all. XD
[18:43] kuraikarp: ????
[18:43] RabidChipmunk380: SARCASM.
[18:43] kuraikarp: OH. XD
[18:43] kuraikarp: I was all, "HUH? Whu--?"
[18:43] RabidChipmunk380: *snort*
[18:43] RabidChipmunk380: BUtyeah.
[18:44] RabidChipmunk380: You can see that, barring the SUPERNATURAL,
[18:44] RabidChipmunk380: One is happiest at a happy medium of emotion and logic.
[18:44] RabidChipmunk380: After all, it's the both of those that makes ambition.
[18:44] RabidChipmunk380: The logic to know what one truly wants, and the passion to pursue it. :3
[18:45] kuraikarp: Ah, but it takes more than logic to voice a desire. Logic would dictate the best choice of action, not necessarily the most enjoyable one.
[18:45] kuraikarp: Take a look at prominent businessmen. They succeed and thrive on logic alone.
[18:45] RabidChipmunk380: But their passion for their craft allows them to have some semblance of happiness.
[18:46] RabidChipmunk380: They want money, so their emotions, particularly greed, govern the desire.
[18:46] kuraikarp: Can you determine that they have passion, let alone happiness?
[18:46] RabidChipmunk380: Wouldn't it vary case by case?
[18:46] kuraikarp: They can merely be driven by the logical excerpt that hard work = larger paychecks.
[18:46] kuraikarp: But of course.
[18:46] kuraikarp: I'm merely stating an example where it's perfectly possible to get by on one or the other.
smile [18:47] RabidChipmunk380: Granted, it's a sure thing that they would feel some emotions towards their lives.
[18:47] RabidChipmunk380: Happiness at their success, disgust at what they've become.
[18:47] RabidChipmunk380: But.,
[18:47] RabidChipmunk380: It's the fear of losing what they've got that keeps them in the profession, no?
[18:47] kuraikarp: Either that, or a realization that they can't get out. They're in too deep. That's logic talking.
[18:48] RabidChipmunk380: Hm.
[18:48] kuraikarp: ...This is fun.
biggrin [18:48] RabidChipmunk380: But emotion won't make them stop hoping, eh?
[18:48] RabidChipmunk380: Wait until they get that firing they desire, and they can be happy.
[18:48] kuraikarp: Assuming they had hopes in the first place.
smile [18:48] RabidChipmunk380: Ah, everyone has hopes, it's just a matter of how deeply buried they are.
[18:48] kuraikarp: Assuming that they went in without being disillusioned by promises of bliss.
[18:48] kuraikarp: There may not have been hope for happiness at all.
[18:49] RabidChipmunk380: Doesn't mean they can't have it.
[18:49] RabidChipmunk380: Money gives superficial happiness, after all.
[18:49] kuraikarp: But of course.
[18:49] RabidChipmunk380: "I'll get rich, and I'll have everything I want in life!"
[18:49] RabidChipmunk380: Logic states that they'd get money, but they may be unhappy in the long run.
[18:49] RabidChipmunk380: Emotion states that they want the money to be happy.
[18:50] RabidChipmunk380: Together, the unhappiness brought by the logic and the happiness brought by emotion neutralize into indifference.
[18:50] RabidChipmunk380: Hence the apathy of the typical office worker.
[18:50] RabidChipmunk380: "I'll make something of myself! But I hate my job!"
[18:51] kuraikarp: Is that not the American dream? Forget the white picket fence. Forget the dream of a family. Corporate success. The realization that they'll rot in a job, but be rewarded at the end, if they're lucky.
[18:51] kuraikarp: Sad as it is, that's the American goal.
[18:51] RabidChipmunk380: Heh.
[18:51] RabidChipmunk380: And this may tangent a bit.
[18:51] RabidChipmunk380: But you're just as much a hybrid of emotion and logic as the nex.
[18:51] RabidChipmunk380: Next.
[18:51] RabidChipmunk380: Kurai 9:48 pm
...This is fun.
biggrin [18:51] RabidChipmunk380: Kurai 9:51 pm
Is that not the American dream? Forget the white picket fence. Forget the dream of a family. Corporate success. The realization that they'll rot in a job, but be rewarded at the end, if they're lucky.
Sad as it is, that's the American goal.
[18:52] RabidChipmunk380: You've got the emotion behind the debate, of course. But, you;ve got the logic to keep up with me. And this, I'm sure, is amusing you quite a bit.
[18:53] kuraikarp: Perhaps. Can you prove, despite the prior statement, that I'm not being merely apathetic about this argument?
[18:53] kuraikarp: (Though that's definitely not the case. XD)
[18:53] RabidChipmunk380: Well, you wouldn't go out of your way to use emoticons, if that were the case.
[18:53] RabidChipmunk380: Emoticons are used to express emotion, and that's exactly what you're using them for.
[18:54] RabidChipmunk380: Sure, we sometimes use them without much basis, but there's still a basis regardless.
[18:54] RabidChipmunk380: And if you were apathetic about the argument, you wouldn't have brought it back up to me, correct?
[18:54] RabidChipmunk380: You wouldn't care about what I'd say about it, for you don't care about the subject to begin with.
[18:55] kuraikarp: Not necessarily. I might have said it to merely humor your request earlier to present the facts to me.
[18:55] kuraikarp: (Which, again, is not the case.)
[18:55] kuraikarp: (But hell. I had to bring it up. XD)
[18:55] RabidChipmunk380: Yes, but why would you humor me, if you didn't care?
[18:55] RabidChipmunk380: If you didn't care, you'd let it well enough alone, rather than be bothered by the debate itself.
[18:56] kuraikarp: Even if, logically, the debate will only increase the skills relevant to my major?
[18:56] RabidChipmunk380: (( ******** Ronnie's theme... ))
[18:56] kuraikarp: ((XDDDDDDD!))
[18:56] kuraikarp: ((ilu.))
[18:56] RabidChipmunk380: Well, of course, you're pretty darned close to that skill level, already.
[18:57] RabidChipmunk380: You'd have no reason to humor me and get yourself higher up on the logical debate ladder, when you're more than capable of handling the common man in a battle of wits.
[18:57] kuraikarp: Why rest on one's laurels?
[18:57] RabidChipmunk380: There'd be no purpose in discussing the subject, for your opinion would not change. Apathetic people have no opinions either way, and you say you work on logic. If one wouldn't care, they wouldn't even do that.
[18:57] kuraikarp: Why not challenge others to new battles of wits?
[18:58] RabidChipmunk380: Because you allegedly don't care.
[18:58] kuraikarp: Not necessarily. For instance, in the debate of abortion, I don't care which side I argue for.
[18:58] kuraikarp: If I'm assigned a role, I'll debate it.
[18:58] RabidChipmunk380: Why go out of your way to challenge anyone, if you don't care one way or another?
[18:58] kuraikarp: Practice. One doesn't get better without practice and exposure to different trains of thought.
[18:58] RabidChipmunk380: And that's emotion.
[18:58] RabidChipmunk380: The desire to better oneself.
[18:58] RabidChipmunk380: Ambition.
[18:59] kuraikarp: One station (or topic) does not necessarily cater to all of the trains that run through it. Some attempt to go through it, yet bypass it entirely.
[18:59] kuraikarp: That is merely attempting to assess the different logical scenarios that can arise from taking on people of different castes, sex, and ages.
[19:00] kuraikarp: A logical explanation to expand the base of knowledge to better combat the next opponent.
[19:00] RabidChipmunk380: Because you WANT to.
[19:00] RabidChipmunk380: Logic might say to better yourself, but it's the emotions behind it, no matter how miniscule, that push you forwards.
[19:02] kuraikarp: Who says that one needs emotions, in this instance? The knowledge that law firms require a certain win ratio from their lawyers is more than reason enough to force their workers to expose themselves to new trains of thought. If they do not adapt, they do not get the paycheck that is necessary for them to subsist.
[19:03] RabidChipmunk380: And it's their desire to keep getting that paycheck, to keep WINNING, to HELP PEOPLE (and hurt others but still) that pushes them forwards.
[19:03] RabidChipmunk380: (( Am I making a good case? XD ))
[19:03] kuraikarp: The helping of people is irrelevant. The win ratio is necessary for them to eat and subsist. Without it, logically, they would die. There is no emotion involved. Merely a math formula of action to reaction.
[19:04] kuraikarp: ((You've got a few holes, to be honest, but you're doing well. XD)
[19:04] RabidChipmunk380: It's perfectly relevant!
[19:04] RabidChipmunk380: They wanna get that win ratio, correct? So, they've got the emotions moving them towards it. Sure, they'd swallow their pride to get there, but it's the avarice and the fear of NOT getting the money they so crave that keeps them going.
[19:05] RabidChipmunk380: ((Where are the holes? XD))
[19:06] kuraikarp: ((You keep mentioning 'drive' as an emotion. You're begging the question as to whether 'drive' is a force of necessity, or emotion. You must define it before you can USE it. XD))
[19:06] RabidChipmunk380: (( Drive is ambition, silly. The desire to achieve a goal. ))
[19:06] RabidChipmunk380: (( And last I checked, Desire is an emotion. ))
[19:08] kuraikarp: ((An instinctive need to obtain what one needs to survive? One can argue that as a necessary force of logic. In order to get A to survive, I must do B. It can be seen as either subjective- in which case, it would be an emotion [I wish to get A, so sure, I've got to do B.]- or objective [The truth is that A is unobtainable without B.], in which case it's a force of logic.))
[19:09] RabidChipmunk380: (( So it's a moot point. XD To prove it fully would demand a case by case comparison of each person on the planet, and each in history. ))
[19:10] kuraikarp: ((
biggrin Ta-da. Hence my point. You cannot say for certain that it's either one or the other- or both- and thus cannot use it as a definitive force for your argument. You're begging the question by assuming you know the precise classification.
biggrin ))
[19:10] RabidChipmunk380: ( WELL. ) Let's ditch the ()s and discuss this. :3
[19:11] kuraikarp: Hehehehehe. x3 Having fun, yet?
[19:11] RabidChipmunk380: Of course.
[19:11] RabidChipmunk380: Now.
[19:11] kuraikarp: Yes?
[19:11] RabidChipmunk380: Psychology states that humans have emotion, correct?
[19:12] kuraikarp: To a certain extent, yes. But psychology also states that such things can be repressed, while still leaving the logical mind to stand on its own two feet. Proverbially speaking.
[19:12] RabidChipmunk380: Mhm.
[19:12] RabidChipmunk380: Hm.
[19:12] RabidChipmunk380: My mind is aching too much to keep this goig. XD
[19:12] kuraikarp: XD
[19:12] RabidChipmunk380: We gotta take a break, man.
[19:12] kuraikarp: Whaat?
[19:12] RabidChipmunk380: Gettin' a headache, I am. D:
[19:12] kuraikarp: XDDDDDDDD
[19:12] kuraikarp: I'm just getting warmed up! XD
[19:13] RabidChipmunk380: Reading NaNo textlines and this and yeah. xD
[19:13] RabidChipmunk380: DAMMIT. XD
[19:13] kuraikarp: Silly.
[19:13] kuraikarp: -hugs-
[19:13] kuraikarp: Best little brother EVER, putting up with my crap. xD
[19:13] RabidChipmunk380: We really, really must discuss such a thing when we're both at our peak.
[19:13] RabidChipmunk380: Meaning NOT November.
[19:13] kuraikarp: True.
[19:14] kuraikarp: We've been at this for almost an hour!
biggrin [19:14] kuraikarp: How quaint. <3
[19:14] RabidChipmunk380: X3
[19:14] kuraikarp: I'm half-tempted to post up half of this. But I figure I shouldn't. xD
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