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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:56 am
I have no disagreements with you. What you say makes perfect sense. HoH was good because, while they could congratulate me subjectively, there was also a level of implied fairness I knew would counterbalance it. Perhaps the judges should allow themselves to give negative numbers on the "Wow factor" score for people who really underwhelmed them? If they did that, they'd feel that their opinions had a place in the score card to be expressed, and they could be more objective with the rest of the scores.
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:07 am
I...I have failed her brother but you...you must triumph and make her proud. FOR THE SOLAR VAG!!!
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:38 am
THE SUN HAS NOT SET. I SHALL TAKE IT FROM HERE, BROTHER GWWWWOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAHHHHHH-  PRRRRAAAAIIIIIIIISSSSEEEEEEEEEEEE HER!
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:48 am
Scalar Warfare I know you use every opportunity to flash your opinion on this Tres, but in this case you are objectively wrong. Vin's points are valid because they are addressing issues with the grading criteria, and Yummy is, in this case, refusing to engage them. Entertainment is only one of the criterion, not all of them... which, while it can be considered subjective, is still only that one part of the score. And as this is a tournament, and thus a competitive endeavor, it requires a concrete rubric and ruleset by which to evaluate the participants. A good rubric, one that is both clear and objective, and provides meaningful comparisons to score numbers by which to measure them, should result in nearly identical scores from any judge who picks them up. This is clearly NOT the case here, as even within single fights we have massive score variations from judge to judge. That means the categories are subjective, which is a serious problem given that we weren't given to understand that the judging would be purely subjective from the get go. We expected coherence and uniformity. In turn, if it is purely subjective, why even score the fights at all? Just provide a 'Win/Lose' verdict and move on. Clarity, for example, is as concrete a category as you can get. How clear is the writing of the fighter? Is it difficult to read? Is it a bunch of run on sentences? Did he succeed in conveying his actions in a concise and precise manner or is it difficult to visualize? Is it formatted poorly or written in really small font? Did they check their spelling, grammar, and punctuation? And yet Vintrict's and Boujuka's Clarity scores don't reflect any of the above. Bojuka gets a 4/5 for several posts that display a litany of actions in almost no context, as if he were rapidly reciting a series of moves from a movelist while standing still. Vintrict gets a 2 out of 5 for 'switching styles' in the middle of the fight. Excuse me, but who gives a ********? That's not what clarity is. Could you understand what he was saying, yes/no?! If yes, full marks. If no, what was the impediment? Saying 'Well I didn't like the fact that you shifted tone halfway through' is about as subjective as you can get, and that s**t is NOT kosher. Once again, I didn't agree with the judges. I was explaining to Vin what happened. Not what I think should happen. I was explaining to him what happened in this tournament. What happened in this tournament is similar to what happens in the GTB or other small tournaments excluding the Heaven or Hell. The HOH is one of the few tournaments with a comprehensive rubric but even there many people don't agree with the criteria on which fights are judged. Remember, the HOH is also frequently accused of being biased towards a specific playstyle. What it comes down to, even when you have a comprehensive rubric is getting the judges to like reading what you write. I'm not talking about an ideal world where you have concrete ruleset that removes all bias from the judging. I'm talking about reality. I want you to find me one tournament where it isn't incredibly subjective. Its not the GTB. Its not the Grand Tournament Its not the CoC Its not the HOH, even that's the closest (oddly enough this is the tournament I do best in despite my philosophy)
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:50 am
Sunsworn Some people might think that's sad, I don't. It's human. Oh sunsworn. You are the only one who ever understands me.
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:57 am
ImNoHero Tres Ecstuffuan Vintrict Which is the point. They're useless in this tournament. You and me have disagreed on this basic point, but I'll say it again. Roleplaying is entertainment. It is our job to entertain those who read our product, our post, our roleplaying. That includes those who are actively participating with us and those who are passively participating through reading or judging. I read your fight. I think you won your fight. While I wasn't impressed with either performance, I think you out did Bojouka in every catagory. The reason you lost that fight, based on what Yummy said, was your OOC. I don't necessarily agree with OOC affecting IC but the harsh reality is, is that it certainly does. When I pressed you in the GTB literally about what I felt was an inconsistency in judging, you blew me off like Yummy is blowing you off. So while I understand why you are pressing him, note that you must understand why he is blowing you off. Something about your OOC caused Yummy to feel that Bojouka was more entertaining. Hero did as well. It could be that you are Vintrict and that you've built up a lot of ire towards yourself. It could be that they know OutlawD better than they know you. but the bottom line is, its your job to make them like you. Thats what this is. All that technical competitive bullshit is bullshit. Its about who can make the judges want to read their s**t the most. So my suggestion to you Vin, is to ask not why they judged how they judged...but what they want to see from you in the future and how they think you can improve. Personally, I have no real ire or grudge toward Vin, though when I'm intoxicated, and I see something that makes me angry, I express it sometimes but it's all bullshit. I don't hate anyone on this site or actually dislike them because quite frankly I don't know most of them, and this is all just a game. My main issue of the fight, as mentioned, was both players having a few instances of lack of the small details that are actually necessary. For instance, saying one is strong or fast, but not necessarily selling it well enough to know how strong, how fast. Saying 'Athena is the strongest woman in the world' sells that she is peak human, Bojuka surpasses that in a small scale. And even with her Arcane woowoo gem adding prowess, how much? Both players gave some similar issues, so their scores were in turn similar. But someone had to win. And what tipped the win was the poor defensive choices and failing to live up to them. For instance, trying to avoid that BOJUKA DRILL LOUTS OMOTE RENGE LOLJUTSU! I thought that would have been hilarious to see happen, though regardless, in Vin's position as 'The Strongest Woman in the World', why not try breaking the chains that bind you? Honestly, it would have worked. There is a reason the chain are constructed of a living metal that regenerates. But I guess the simple s**t eludes you when you look into something too hard. He just couldn't accept the assault though he made a poor choice or two that would have made it unavoidable regardless of how cheap or dirty the move could be seen as, I can't say it went out of range of his profile nor that it couldn't work. Hell, I'm sure it'd delay his a**, but Bishop could get up after that and HULK SMASH a knigga. Then again, he would have just used his immense strength to try and break the chains that sought to bond him. I read the whole fight. I didn't even notice where Vin changed his writing style. That being said. For a peak human level fighter, breaking a chain with your bare hands doesn't sound like something you could do nor something that someone would even think to try. I think it would have been meta-gaming for Athena to attempt it without the aid of some supernatural force. I don't know Athena's kit, so whether or not she had something that would have made it possible to simply break a chain I do not know. Bojouka's writing clearly said that the chains were strong enough to squeeze against her and cause her arms to snap due to the placement of the limbs. The chains would have to be really strong in order for that to happen. Regardless, Athena the character, isn't operating on the same knowledge that you might be operating on as someone who knows more about Bojouka brown. Like I said, I don't think the strongest man in the world could break a chain simply by grabbing it and pulling. Granted, I thought Athena catching the chain at all was stupid but regardless... The Rock Lee style uppercut and falling slam never happened. Athena stopped it. The issue with that is, there were apparently two judge rulings. One where Bojouka was allowed to NO U Athena and another where Athena was able to simply counter by shifting her center of gravity to prevent him from lifting her. This is where Bojouka stopped posting. Essentially Athena never confirmed that the drill thing happened and Bojouka never confirmed its failure. The fight only got six post in, so there really wasn't much to grade. I don't know, I think a better solution to this would have been to put them both in some crazy eliminator style match up or a sudden death match and tell them to do better. Because all in all, from both guys, that fight was terribad.
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:00 am
Just Naota Yes, but HoH had checks and balances. A judge could say, "I really liked how you used the environment to accomplish X and Y." Then give you a high score in that regard, typically in Creativity. But if your writing wasn't as clear as it could be, or some of your evasive moves or attacks didn't make concrete sense. Then you'd get a lower score in Logic. So it doesn't really matter (in that case) how entertaining you were in a fight. Similarly, you may have been really creative and got the upper hand at some point in the fight, but if your opponent fairly pounded the s**t out of your character for the majority of the fight (both before and after you got the upper hand momentarily) then you'll get lower scores in Damage and Control as well. Entertainment or creativity scores only affect (in a judge's eyes) that particular score. How much you personally entertained me should not cross over into damage, your ability to dominate a fight, or how logical your posts were. They just don't and they shouldn't. Of course, nor am I saying that entertainment isn't important, it does a lot of things in-game that people take for granted, and it's still 25% of your grade. And I know, we can't really prevent bias altogether. No logical person could argue otherwise. But that doesn't mean we should embrace that bias either. Because if we do, where do we draw the line? At what point do the rules of fair play and logic finally supersede my personal preference on people or how people should RP fight? That's why we need rubrics and solid rules, because an opinion isn't enough. You need to be able to quantify it numerically to make it as fair as possible for everyone involved. I Think my comment was read as "There shouldn't be any rules" where it was merely me describing to VIN what happened in this case. I think the way the HOH runs is great. I enjoy the rubric. I think it covers all the bases. I was planning on using it in my thing. However the reality of the situation for the CoC is, we don't have a comprehensive rubric or judging system. That is the reality in most tournaments. So with that in mind, in most smaller tournaments, your best bet is to try to impress the judges however you can.
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:23 am
I told Zantara somewhat the same thing in a Skype conversation.
I don't agree with a lot of the decisions made for this round but... that was because I was under the assumption that they were following the rule-sets of the more popular tournaments.
Ultimately however and I am gonna quote this:
[3/21/2014 7:38:26 PM] Vin: In the end: all judges are right [3/21/2014 7:38:32 PM] Vin: That's the contract of the tournament. [3/21/2014 7:38:48 PM] Vin: So I can't say they were wrong [3/21/2014 7:38:58 PM] Vin: It's up to them to deal with the repercussions of foul play [3/21/2014 7:40:08 PM] MANIMAL!!!: exactly as Vinny said [3/21/2014 7:40:41 PM] Vin: It's a shame it happened that way, too, cause I never got to fight [3/21/2014 7:40:46 PM] MANIMAL!!!: but in all honestly I think Bishop just misplanned this whole think [3/21/2014 7:41:12 PM] MANIMAL!!!: he just wanted to host an event to read good fights [3/21/2014 7:41:37 PM] MANIMAL!!!: and never anticipated how Gaians act with eachother [3/21/2014 7:42:26 PM] MANIMAL!!!: He didn't know that most of us are innately assholes who don't know how to play with others [3/21/2014 7:42:58 PM] MANIMAL!!!: and more importantly... didn't know how to scale the powers allowed in the tournament [3/21/2014 7:43:35 PM] MANIMAL!!!: plasma swords, living chains, super saiyan propane salesman [3/21/2014 7:43:50 PM] MANIMAL!!!: I mean honestly lol [3/21/2014 7:48:06 PM] MANIMAL!!!: well that and they are covered since they actually posted any legitimate rules to this thing [3/21/2014 7:48:32 PM] MANIMAL!!!: we just assumed it was gonna follow certain rules [3/21/2014 7:48:44 PM] MANIMAL!!!: atleast I did [3/21/2014 8:03:19 PM] MANIMAL!!!: which is why I am not raging [3/21/2014 8:03:28 PM] MANIMAL!!!: I accept my fault in this
I omitted certain parts of the conversation for ...let's say legal reasons but the core of what needed to be conveyed is there.
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:36 am
Tres Ecstuffuan Oh sunsworn. You are the only one who ever understands me. I weep with you, brother.
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:40 am
Perhaps I will face a worthy opponent.
cool
Doubt it, harharhahrrr
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:51 am
At least he knows his weapons.
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:56 am
ImNoHero Personally, I have no real ire or grudge toward Vin, though when I'm intoxicated, and I see something that makes me angry, I express it sometimes but it's all bullshit. I don't hate anyone on this site or actually dislike them because quite frankly I don't know most of them, and this is all just a game. My main issue of the fight, as mentioned, was both players having a few instances of lack of the small details that are actually necessary. For instance, saying one is strong or fast, but not necessarily selling it well enough to know how strong, how fast. Saying 'Athena is the strongest woman in the world' sells that she is peak human, Bojuka surpasses that in a small scale. And even with her Arcane woowoo gem adding prowess, how much? Both players gave some similar issues, so their scores were in turn similar. But someone had to win. And what tipped the win was the poor defensive choices and failing to live up to them. For instance, trying to avoid that BOJUKA DRILL LOUTS OMOTE RENGE LOLJUTSU! I thought that would have been hilarious to see happen, though regardless, in Vin's position as 'The Strongest Woman in the World', why not try breaking the chains that bind you? Honestly, it would have worked. There is a reason the chain are constructed of a living metal that regenerates. But I guess the simple s**t eludes you when you look into something too hard. He just couldn't accept the assault though he made a poor choice or two that would have made it unavoidable regardless of how cheap or dirty the move could be seen as, I can't say it went out of range of his profile nor that it couldn't work. Hell, I'm sure it'd delay his a**, but Bishop could get up after that and HULK SMASH a knigga. Then again, he would have just used his immense strength to try and break the chains that sought to bond him. You just made...the same argument Bojuka made. "He could have just broke the chain."Someone in this thread said it better than I. It was actually smarter "not" to try to break the chain. I think Tres said it actually. Why waste time and effort trying to get leverage on a chain that already has magical stretch magic to it, then trying to break it? Hell, a normal chain is already tough to take out. Now consider where we are. We're on Gaia. Metal is titanium and everything is almost enchanted. It was smarter to not waste time on breaking a chain, so that thought never surfaced to her head, This is a tournament. If you entered something that was easily breakable, you're already suicidal. Plus, he was doing five moves at once. You're tell me: sit there and take some time to break the chain, as my only reaction, while I get reflected, punched in the face, then sent into the Leaf Lotus Bloom Twice shenanigan.
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:00 pm
Tres Ecstuffuan I don't know, I think a better solution to this would have been to put them both in some crazy eliminator style match up or a sudden death match and tell them to do better. Because all in all, from both guys, that fight was terribad. Even better idea: put Athena and Bojuka both in a Bloodbath style match. No powers. Huehue.
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:24 pm
+rolls by+ To follow up on my concern, I keep looking at my scores curiously. I have nothing against Hael at all and I certainly wanted to see my fight go longer. But I can't wrap my head around why I got lower scores in "domination" by every judge.
Also I believe Hael got sick(?) for a week and didn't post although he was still around in the OOC thread. I couldn't help but wonder if that was taken into account or not when scoring.
But at this point I may be repeating the issue of consistency and a subjective rubric.
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Posted: Sat Mar 22, 2014 12:28 pm
We, including the judges, have already concluded that there is no rubric to follow with any sort of guideline. Which really makes it pointless to follow any set criteria. Just rp the way you do and if the judges like it, you go through. The raw essence of a judging competition. In a way, I respect it. Unfortunately, it leaves too much room for abuse.
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