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 Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:50 pm
Drachyench_The_Eternal Xenos Mortium Is bionics really worth taking? I understand that for five points you have a chance of having your 60 point model get back up and start fighting again, but is it worth the points to give it to your models? Not really. Only a few models can take it, you don't get it against anything S6 or powerweapon, etc. On Space Marines it's OK because you use it a tad more often, but guard rarely get any chances. Keep them off. Saves 5pts each. Xenos Mortium Should I use Sharpshooters are anything other than my Heavy Weapons? I've used it before to some success with my normal infantry, but it is a waste of points where I could save up and buy a new infantry squad, or something else? Only Heavy Weapons and specialist weapon squads. Officer w/ 4 Melta's? Tempting, but no, as they're likely getting only one shooting phase anyways, successful or not. Heavy bolters / Autocannons? Hellz yes. Platoon with a HB? Nope. Saves you enough for a couple platoons. Xenos Mortium I've used it and I like it, but is it worth it to give my troops Hardened Fighters, or at least the ones that I think will need it? It's nice to be almost on par with Space Marines (combined with Close Order Drill) in close combat, but is it worth the points? No, bad, BAD! Guard are NOT close combat. They are meant to stay where they are, and fire until their enemy is a nice smear on the ground. Close Order drill is OK for the +1ld, but as long as you keep them in the bubbles you Officers provide, it isn't too badly needed. Without Fighters, you save a good deal of points. Xenos Mortium Is there a good balance of support squads to "attack" squads? i.e.: How many squads should I have sit back and shoot with heavy weapons in respect to however many are advancing with rapid fire and assualt weapons? Also, should I just have Heavy Weapons squads attached to the Command Squad to allow all of my infantry squads to advance? Yes, there is a good balance. 100% Support, 0% Assault. You are a S3 T3 model without an above average WS or a Power Weapon. Combat is not your place. Spamming shots is your place. Xenos Mortium Is there any other advice which you may impart? As long as no-one else is using it, give the Honorific to your armies HQ. A Junior Officer with Honorific saves you 5pts. Not much, but it could mean another heavy weapon in the long run.
Hes made it clear he would like a CC gaurd army and has already used it to some effect. So perhaps tone down the "NO BAD BAD" stuff. Hell as the posts going on above show, some people can make use of tactics others find useless.
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Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 9:52 pm
Nuclearwinter Asian_Rebel Not to interupt or anything... sweatdrop But quick question. For Storm Troopers, what's better for clearing infantry? A flamer or grenade launcher? I hear that the frag grenades might as well be pebbles, but it is dual use... any time that i use storm troopers I usually avoid flamers simply because they have a BS of 4 and I'd rather have them equiped with a plasma gun to make full use of that advantage but if you're looking to get in close with the enemy then go with flamers. (grenade launchers are better used in units that want to keep their distance in my opinion) And just to briefly respond about what I said with the doctrines, I just feel like they make the guardsmen cost too much for that they'd be worth with just more numbers, I can't ever use xenofighters cause that's more for somone who wants's to model them specificly that way. Jungle fighters will never be taken because I don't aways use forest terrain in games. Die hards is useless because if my guardsmen are in close combat i'd rather have them flee and the rest of my troops gun down the remaining assulters. Hardened fighters is useless because what the hell is a guardsmen gonna do with WS 4? And any other doctrine I take, I feel like i'm only useing it because I NEED it, not cause I want to use it.
Your post shwos the problem. Just because you dont want soemthing does not mean that it is worthless or the rule book was made by idiots as you stated earlier. Others use the tactics you call pointless to good effect. Also there is the matter of fluff, some people want an army with a background and rules that represent it, not just what will win.
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:17 am
King Kento Nuclearwinter Asian_Rebel Not to interupt or anything... sweatdrop But quick question. For Storm Troopers, what's better for clearing infantry? A flamer or grenade launcher? I hear that the frag grenades might as well be pebbles, but it is dual use... any time that i use storm troopers I usually avoid flamers simply because they have a BS of 4 and I'd rather have them equiped with a plasma gun to make full use of that advantage but if you're looking to get in close with the enemy then go with flamers. (grenade launchers are better used in units that want to keep their distance in my opinion) And just to briefly respond about what I said with the doctrines, I just feel like they make the guardsmen cost too much for that they'd be worth with just more numbers, I can't ever use xenofighters cause that's more for somone who wants's to model them specificly that way. Jungle fighters will never be taken because I don't aways use forest terrain in games. Die hards is useless because if my guardsmen are in close combat i'd rather have them flee and the rest of my troops gun down the remaining assulters. Hardened fighters is useless because what the hell is a guardsmen gonna do with WS 4? And any other doctrine I take, I feel like i'm only useing it because I NEED it, not cause I want to use it.
Your post shwos the problem. Just because you dont want soemthing does not mean that it is worthless or the rule book was made by idiots as you stated earlier. Others use the tactics you call pointless to good effect. Also there is the matter of fluff, some people want an army with a background and rules that represent it, not just what will win.That's the thing, I DID use armies with a style that I liked and used different doctrine that's made them that way, but no matter that I did it seemed like only a specific few doctrines would ever be worth their points untill it came to a point where I wasn't customising anything at all. Don't get me wrong it's not that I'm obsessed with winning, it's just that losing tends to get a little boring the 50th or so time in a row.
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:25 am
King Kento Drachyench_The_Eternal Xenos Mortium Is bionics really worth taking? I understand that for five points you have a chance of having your 60 point model get back up and start fighting again, but is it worth the points to give it to your models? Not really. Only a few models can take it, you don't get it against anything S6 or powerweapon, etc. On Space Marines it's OK because you use it a tad more often, but guard rarely get any chances. Keep them off. Saves 5pts each. Xenos Mortium Should I use Sharpshooters are anything other than my Heavy Weapons? I've used it before to some success with my normal infantry, but it is a waste of points where I could save up and buy a new infantry squad, or something else? Only Heavy Weapons and specialist weapon squads. Officer w/ 4 Melta's? Tempting, but no, as they're likely getting only one shooting phase anyways, successful or not. Heavy bolters / Autocannons? Hellz yes. Platoon with a HB? Nope. Saves you enough for a couple platoons. Xenos Mortium I've used it and I like it, but is it worth it to give my troops Hardened Fighters, or at least the ones that I think will need it? It's nice to be almost on par with Space Marines (combined with Close Order Drill) in close combat, but is it worth the points? No, bad, BAD! Guard are NOT close combat. They are meant to stay where they are, and fire until their enemy is a nice smear on the ground. Close Order drill is OK for the +1ld, but as long as you keep them in the bubbles you Officers provide, it isn't too badly needed. Without Fighters, you save a good deal of points. Xenos Mortium Is there a good balance of support squads to "attack" squads? i.e.: How many squads should I have sit back and shoot with heavy weapons in respect to however many are advancing with rapid fire and assualt weapons? Also, should I just have Heavy Weapons squads attached to the Command Squad to allow all of my infantry squads to advance? Yes, there is a good balance. 100% Support, 0% Assault. You are a S3 T3 model without an above average WS or a Power Weapon. Combat is not your place. Spamming shots is your place. Xenos Mortium Is there any other advice which you may impart? As long as no-one else is using it, give the Honorific to your armies HQ. A Junior Officer with Honorific saves you 5pts. Not much, but it could mean another heavy weapon in the long run.
Hes made it clear he would like a CC gaurd army and has already used it to some effect. So perhaps tone down the "NO BAD BAD" stuff. Hell as the posts going on above show, some people can make use of tactics others find useless.Sorry, it's just that loyalists work much better shooting then combat. The point of WS/S/T 3 models stands. If they had either a better armor, or an improvement in one of the statlines that was free, it'd be fine. Right now, though, they'll tend to need 4's to hit their average enemy ('Nids, Orks, Chaos, and Space Marines), 5's to wound in all except the 'Nids, and usually their foe will save between one-in-six and two-in-three wounds caused. Close Combat CAN work. It just isn't prefered for Guard. Even with Carapace, they'll lose much of their numbers before reaching combat, and that's what you need (Screens no longer work, so the 50 Convicts in a double-wide line trick doesn't work no more). If you must rely on Guard in CC, don't take away their lasguns. Keep 'em, and equip any officer you can with a power weapon or, much more prefered, a powerfist. (Hardened Vets work well here.) You want a huge mass of wounds between your PF (Be it officer, commissar, sergeant, etc) and your foe, as that's all you should rely on for doing the combat damage. Any Bayonette kills are a bonus. Min. Upgrade squads (60pt base platoons), led by either a plain P-Fist officer(60), a P-Fist Commissar(60), or a Eviscerator Priest(65). Carapace is Okay for this list, though again, you will lose a good deal of models ahead of time. With toned lists and such (90pt HQ P.F. Junior w/ Honorific, 5 2-Squad Platoons w/ PF officers [900], 5 Commissars [300pts], and 2 Deep-Striking Vet squads w/ 3 melta's [150]), you get 1440 point list which still has 3 doctrine points left (Only using Veterans and Drop Troops), you get 145 models, 6 Deep Striking BS4 Meltaguns, 33 Powerfist attacks without charge (Of which, 15 require you cut through at least 10 other models before you get to the PF itself), And 6 Leadership bubbles from the officers. On the charge, the PF attacks increases by up to 11 more (For 44 total PF attacks on the charge), whilst the rest of the army fills in as fodder for the PF models. With the PF's, you'll likely be wounding on 2's and hitting on 4's. That's still 22 Wounds from the PF's, and you can just push more Guard in to protect the fists. The Melta's deal with tanks, the Guard troops, and you can win. Just expect a high number of casualties. I'm speaking you'll be lucky if you still number in the double-digits by the time the game closes.
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:58 pm
here's an even better argument, which would you rather have? 100 guardsmen without any upgrades, or 75 with WS 4 for the same price?
You can have 25 more shots per turn (50 with rapid fire) and 25 more bodies to throw into close combat if you don't take the WS 4 (it's 15 points per squad)
any troops that you're enemy will be throwing at you in CC will most likely have WS of 4 so it's not like you're hitting better, you're just taking 1/6 less hits. (assuming the enemy assulters are ONLY WS 4 and not better)
you lose 25 percent of your troops so that they can get hit 1/6 less in combat? that makes no sense at all.
It's only really worth giving to your command squad (for WS 5 at least) or mabey an ogran squad (if you even can)
or an even better example: which would you rather have? 10 guardsmen at WS 4 or five space marines? (they're both 75 points)
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:59 pm
Even with Hardened Fighters, most of the Guard would do well to avoid CC. I view HF as a Doctrine designed to increase counter-assault prowness and give the Guard a fighting chance in most melee situations. When I use it, I don't have my squads charge - that's foolish. However, line squad of Guard that just emptied Rapid Fire Lasgun and assorted Special Weapons into a unit can use that WS 4 to easily repel or overwhelm any charging survivors.
Plus, Command Squads with a Priest love it to death. Insane number of WS 4 and 5 Powerfist hits, with rerolls on a charge.
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:40 pm
Josef Gafencu Even with Hardened Fighters, most of the Guard would do well to avoid CC. I view HF as a Doctrine designed to increase counter-assault prowness and give the Guard a fighting chance in most melee situations. When I use it, I don't have my squads charge - that's foolish. However, line squad of Guard that just emptied Rapid Fire Lasgun and assorted Special Weapons into a unit can use that WS 4 to easily repel or overwhelm any charging survivors.
Plus, Command Squads with a Priest love it to death. Insane number of WS 4 and 5 Powerfist hits, with rerolls on a charge. I can understand using it on a command squad, but for anything else I'd rather just have the 25% more men and use them as a "speed Bump" for any assulting troops. 25% more men means 25% more firepower so the enemy will be even weaker than if I had taken harded fighters And for the record, if the enemy has made it so far deep in to you're line to be assulting your command squad, I can't say things must be going in your favor to begin with.
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:36 am
Nuclearwinter King Kento Nuclearwinter Asian_Rebel Not to interupt or anything... sweatdrop But quick question. For Storm Troopers, what's better for clearing infantry? A flamer or grenade launcher? I hear that the frag grenades might as well be pebbles, but it is dual use... any time that i use storm troopers I usually avoid flamers simply because they have a BS of 4 and I'd rather have them equiped with a plasma gun to make full use of that advantage but if you're looking to get in close with the enemy then go with flamers. (grenade launchers are better used in units that want to keep their distance in my opinion) And just to briefly respond about what I said with the doctrines, I just feel like they make the guardsmen cost too much for that they'd be worth with just more numbers, I can't ever use xenofighters cause that's more for somone who wants's to model them specificly that way. Jungle fighters will never be taken because I don't aways use forest terrain in games. Die hards is useless because if my guardsmen are in close combat i'd rather have them flee and the rest of my troops gun down the remaining assulters. Hardened fighters is useless because what the hell is a guardsmen gonna do with WS 4? And any other doctrine I take, I feel like i'm only useing it because I NEED it, not cause I want to use it.
Your post shwos the problem. Just because you dont want soemthing does not mean that it is worthless or the rule book was made by idiots as you stated earlier. Others use the tactics you call pointless to good effect. Also there is the matter of fluff, some people want an army with a background and rules that represent it, not just what will win.That's the thing, I DID use armies with a style that I liked and used different doctrine that's made them that way, but no matter that I did it seemed like only a specific few doctrines would ever be worth their points untill it came to a point where I wasn't customising anything at all. Don't get me wrong it's not that I'm obsessed with winning, it's just that losing tends to get a little boring the 50th or so time in a row.
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:57 am
King Kento Nuclearwinter King Kento Nuclearwinter Asian_Rebel Not to interupt or anything... sweatdrop But quick question. For Storm Troopers, what's better for clearing infantry? A flamer or grenade launcher? I hear that the frag grenades might as well be pebbles, but it is dual use... any time that i use storm troopers I usually avoid flamers simply because they have a BS of 4 and I'd rather have them equiped with a plasma gun to make full use of that advantage but if you're looking to get in close with the enemy then go with flamers. (grenade launchers are better used in units that want to keep their distance in my opinion) And just to briefly respond about what I said with the doctrines, I just feel like they make the guardsmen cost too much for that they'd be worth with just more numbers, I can't ever use xenofighters cause that's more for somone who wants's to model them specificly that way. Jungle fighters will never be taken because I don't aways use forest terrain in games. Die hards is useless because if my guardsmen are in close combat i'd rather have them flee and the rest of my troops gun down the remaining assulters. Hardened fighters is useless because what the hell is a guardsmen gonna do with WS 4? And any other doctrine I take, I feel like i'm only useing it because I NEED it, not cause I want to use it.
Your post shwos the problem. Just because you dont want soemthing does not mean that it is worthless or the rule book was made by idiots as you stated earlier. Others use the tactics you call pointless to good effect. Also there is the matter of fluff, some people want an army with a background and rules that represent it, not just what will win.That's the thing, I DID use armies with a style that I liked and used different doctrine that's made them that way, but no matter that I did it seemed like only a specific few doctrines would ever be worth their points untill it came to a point where I wasn't customising anything at all. Don't get me wrong it's not that I'm obsessed with winning, it's just that losing tends to get a little boring the 50th or so time in a row. well, down the line mabey I'll give them (the doctrines) a look through again, mabye I'll find somthing that works, but I'll probally go back to my space marine army before that happens.
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:23 pm
Nuclearwinter Josef Gafencu Even with Hardened Fighters, most of the Guard would do well to avoid CC. I view HF as a Doctrine designed to increase counter-assault prowness and give the Guard a fighting chance in most melee situations. When I use it, I don't have my squads charge - that's foolish. However, line squad of Guard that just emptied Rapid Fire Lasgun and assorted Special Weapons into a unit can use that WS 4 to easily repel or overwhelm any charging survivors.
Plus, Command Squads with a Priest love it to death. Insane number of WS 4 and 5 Powerfist hits, with rerolls on a charge. I can understand using it on a command squad, but for anything else I'd rather just have the 25% more men and use them as a "speed Bump" for any assulting troops. 25% more men means 25% more firepower so the enemy will be even weaker than if I had taken harded fighters And for the record, if the enemy has made it so far deep in to you're line to be assulting your command squad, I can't say things must be going in your favor to begin with.
It's all about the style, my man. One doctrine may be useless for some, great for others. Hell, I'm in love with Chem-Inhalers myself. And I know the style works - I've played several test games with it, and did quiet well. Albeit, I lost but that was likely due to my inexperience and I certianly did a hurting on the other fellow's units.
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Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:50 pm
Nuclearwinter here's an even better argument, which would you rather have? 100 guardsmen without any upgrades, or 75 with WS 4 for the same price? 100. You need the same to hit combat enemies, the enemy has less to kill. Quote: You can have 25 more shots per turn (50 with rapid fire) and 25 more bodies to throw into close combat if you don't take the WS 4 (it's 15 points per squad) Yes. The 25 Wounds adds much more endurance. Quote: any troops that you're enemy will be throwing at you in CC will most likely have WS of 4 so it's not like you're hitting better, you're just taking 1/6 less hits. (assuming the enemy assulters are ONLY WS 4 and not better) WS5 Berzerkers, WS6 genestealers, WS5 Incubi, etc. Quote: you lose 25 percent of your troops so that they can get hit 1/6 less in combat? that makes no sense at all. You'll likely have more reaching combat with the additional numbers too. Quote: It's only really worth giving to your command squad (for WS 5 at least) or mabey an ogran squad (if you even can) WS5 is OK simply because it means you now have PF's hitting on 3's. If you can assign it to models themselves (Commissars?), it's worth it only for them.
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:31 am
Xenos Mortium Does an Exterminator work very well? I've been thinking about getting one with three Heavy Bolters and then just giving my Vanquisher a hull-mounted Bolter to keep it low on point cost. Is there a good balance of support squads to "attack" squads? i.e.: How many squads should I have sit back and shoot with heavy weapons in respect to however many are advancing with rapid fire and assualt weapons? Also, should I just have Heavy Weapons squads attached to the Command Squad to allow all of my infantry squads to advance? Exterminators have their games. I found that it all comes down to the dice. I have decimated entire squads in some games and in others failed to shoot down a single destroyer. The optimum setup for the exterminator is all 3 hvy bolters and heavy stubber on the pintal. As a added bonus tyour question. If you later builup and armored company and make a exterminator a Tank Ace it will get BS4.
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:13 pm
I've been thinking over a Guard army. With what seems to be horrible destruction of the Chaos army I was planning, (Daemon heavy Word Bearers) I am thinking more and more Imperial Guard. I really like the look of the Steel Legion, with the Gas Masks. I'm thinking either a chemical enhanced legion which relies on man power more than machines. My problem is the Armageddon guys are OLD, and don't have that many different models.
I've already begun a Traitor Guard army, but I heard that they are getting taken down as well, which is really gonna make me mad. If I have to, I'll count them as normal Imperial Guard. That probably a better idea anyway...
Any suggestions as to what I should look into. I have one squad of converted guardsmen, *Skaven Guard* and I'm thinking about having some more humanish guys, I still don't know what I should get in terms of vehicles. I bought a Leman Russ Demolisher, only to find out the LatD armies can't take them, so I converted it to Ork.
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:58 pm
Hmm... I just made my guard army, as in just assembled a lot of it hehe. If you think of any good ideas for your layout, give me a hollar or something.
Currently mine isnt totally finished, but this is what i have so far. Made from the Cadian Battleforce box set.
110th Cadian "Shadow Corps"
(Yet to buy a HQ squad >_<)
Squad 1:
1 Sergeant, frags, (thinking of making to Vet Sgt.)
7 Guardsmen, frags, 1 Nade launcher
1 Autocannon
Squad 2:
1 Sergeant, frags (possible vet...)
7 Guards, frags, 1 special (yet to think of, thinking maybe melta?)
1 Heavy Bolter.
And soon to be Leman Russ. Gonna start buildin that tomorrow probably, or later tonight. Gonna put a lascannon on front, and bolters on sides.
My plans are mainly longer range, until close where G-launchers can be used and such. Gonna probably buy a set of Kasrkins later. Any ideas what I should use for doctrines or changes for my army?
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Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:27 pm
Robthebob Hmm... I just made my guard army, as in just assembled a lot of it hehe. If you think of any good ideas for your layout, give me a hollar or something. Currently mine isnt totally finished, but this is what i have so far. Made from the Cadian Battleforce box set. 110th Cadian "Shadow Corps" (Yet to buy a HQ squad >_<) Squad 1: 1 Sergeant, frags, (thinking of making to Vet Sgt.) 7 Guardsmen, frags, 1 Nade launcher 1 Autocannon Squad 2: 1 Sergeant, frags (possible vet...) 7 Guards, frags, 1 special (yet to think of, thinking maybe melta?) 1 Heavy Bolter. And soon to be Leman Russ. Gonna start buildin that tomorrow probably, or later tonight. Gonna put a lascannon on front, and bolters on sides. My plans are mainly longer range, until close where G-launchers can be used and such. Gonna probably buy a set of Kasrkins later. Any ideas what I should use for doctrines or changes for my army? not enoguh troop choices, you need at least 1 platoon and another troop choice. guardsmen don't deploy in just squads. and don't waste points on frag grenades, they may seem cheap but they're useless for guardsmen unless your entire army revolves around assult (which is rather difficult to pull off)
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