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Nebulance

Tipsy Reveler

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:37 am


In Medias Res IV
Nebulance
Mar = Mark

In Medias Res IV, I was making points from the Torah against you (since when is Leviticus part of 'my Christian scripture' which is 'complete and utter bullshit'?), points which you continue to ignore. That's what I was talking about.


If you want to argue Leviticus with me, argue it from a JEWISH perspective. Leviticus wasn't written for goyim.


By 'JEWISH' perspective, do you mean YOUR perspective? Neither of us are Jews, and Orthodox Judaism would agree with ME.

So how about you quit ignoring the points I make just because you don't like them or can't answer them?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:39 am


David Guzik's Bible Commentary
It is an abomination: This command is commonly objected to on the grounds that one was born - or created - with homosexual desires. “I was born this way; God made me a homosexual. It is my nature to be homosexual; it would be against my nature to be heterosexual.”

i. The problem is that the Bible says we are all sinners by nature; not a single person is born without an attraction to sin in some way or another. We should not say that God made the homosexual; we could say that Adam did, when he passed on the effects of his rebellion to the entire human race.

ii. Our inborn attraction to sin justifies nothing. The one who practices homosexuality can no more justify himself by saying “I was born this way” than can the person who hates homosexuals justify their ungodly hatred by saying “I was born this way.”

iii. Many justify homosexual practice on the basis of love. They might say, “How can it be wrong to love someone of my own sex? How can love be wrong?” Yet if someone loves their children, it does not justify sexual conduct with them. The issue isn’t love; the issue is of sexual conduct. Of course, the Bible in no way condemns love between people of the same sex, but it does say that sexual conduct between those people is sin.


Please. Homosexuals are not the same as child molesters.

Children are incapable of having mature actually loving sexual relationships, unlike homosexuals.
The problem with your theory is that if I had a girlfriend I would sinning right? But if I had a p***s and a girlfriend, I wouldn't? We would be the same people!

There is nothing wrong with it.
Somethings in the bible were written for healthy living at the time they were written. Even though the bible says eating shrimp is an abomination, it really means to eat shrimp in moderation and be careful when you do it because we all know there is nothing immoral about eating shrimp.

We have established that there is nothing immoral about homosexuality. Some think it's unnatural but even that doesn't automatically make it immoral. So, tell me, why would it be in there if there is nothing wrong with it?
The answer is the same as the shrimp thing. God doesn't hate it in general. He hates the tendencies of the community. Just like if you eat shrimp without being careful you can catch diseases the same goes for what we're arguing over and other things. When the bible refers to being gay it always adds in lust, since I can not find a single thing wrong with being gay in general, it must be the lust that's the sin. The homosexuals the bible refers to were only in it for the lustful reasons. The homosexuals of today are much more loving and I don't think that part of the bible was written for the people of today.

Riiko..Izawa


In Medias Res IV

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:40 am


Nebulance
In Medias Res IV
Nebulance
Mar = Mark

In Medias Res IV, I was making points from the Torah against you (since when is Leviticus part of 'my Christian scripture' which is 'complete and utter bullshit'?), points which you continue to ignore. That's what I was talking about.


If you want to argue Leviticus with me, argue it from a JEWISH perspective. Leviticus wasn't written for goyim.


By 'JEWISH' perspective, do you mean YOUR perspective? Neither of us are Jews, and Orthodox Judaism would agree with ME.

So how about you quit ignoring the points I make just because you don't like them or can't answer them?


You have no right to say that I am not a Jew. It's against Torah to state that anyone isn't a Jew, especially if they're a Jew by Choice or a ger tzedek.

The Reform and Conservative movements disagree with you and they make up the majority of religious Jews.

Only a handful of people agree with you, that's not helping your case.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:41 am


Ok according to Where to Find it in the Bible by Ken Anderson, these scriptures apply to homosexuality. There are quite a few.

Genesis 19:5
"5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."


Leviticus 18:22; 20:13
"22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
"13 If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."


Deuteronomy 23:17
"17 No Israelite man or woman is to become a shrine prostitute."



Judges 19:22-24
"22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him."

23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing." "


1 Samuel 18:1-4; 20:17-41
"1 After David had finished talking with Saul, Jonathan became one in spirit with David, and he loved him as himself. 2 From that day Saul kept David with him and did not let him return to his father's house. 3 And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. 4 Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt."
"17 And Jonathan had David reaffirm his oath out of love for him, because he loved him as he loved himself.

18 Then Jonathan said to David: "Tomorrow is the New Moon festival. You will be missed, because your seat will be empty. 19 The day after tomorrow, toward evening, go to the place where you hid when this trouble began, and wait by the stone Ezel. 20 I will shoot three arrows to the side of it, as though I were shooting at a target. 21 Then I will send a boy and say, 'Go, find the arrows.' If I say to him, 'Look, the arrows are on this side of you; bring them here,' then come, because, as surely as the LORD lives, you are safe; there is no danger. 22 But if I say to the boy, 'Look, the arrows are beyond you,' then you must go, because the LORD has sent you away. 23 And about the matter you and I discussed—remember, the LORD is witness between you and me forever."

24 So David hid in the field, and when the New Moon festival came, the king sat down to eat. 25 He sat in his customary place by the wall, opposite Jonathan, [a] and Abner sat next to Saul, but David's place was empty. 26 Saul said nothing that day, for he thought, "Something must have happened to David to make him ceremonially unclean—surely he is unclean." 27 But the next day, the second day of the month, David's place was empty again. Then Saul said to his son Jonathan, "Why hasn't the son of Jesse come to the meal, either yesterday or today?"

28 Jonathan answered, "David earnestly asked me for permission to go to Bethlehem. 29 He said, 'Let me go, because our family is observing a sacrifice in the town and my brother has ordered me to be there. If I have found favor in your eyes, let me get away to see my brothers.' That is why he has not come to the king's table."

30 Saul's anger flared up at Jonathan and he said to him, "You son of a perverse and rebellious woman! Don't I know that you have sided with the son of Jesse to your own shame and to the shame of the mother who bore you? 31 As long as the son of Jesse lives on this earth, neither you nor your kingdom will be established. Now send and bring him to me, for he must die!"

32 "Why should he be put to death? What has he done?" Jonathan asked his father. 33 But Saul hurled his spear at him to kill him. Then Jonathan knew that his father intended to kill David.

34 Jonathan got up from the table in fierce anger; on that second day of the month he did not eat, because he was grieved at his father's shameful treatment of David.

35 In the morning Jonathan went out to the field for his meeting with David. He had a small boy with him, 36 and he said to the boy, "Run and find the arrows I shoot." As the boy ran, he shot an arrow beyond him. 37 When the boy came to the place where Jonathan's arrow had fallen, Jonathan called out after him, "Isn't the arrow beyond you?" 38 Then he shouted, "Hurry! Go quickly! Don't stop!" The boy picked up the arrow and returned to his master. 39 (The boy knew nothing of all this; only Jonathan and David knew.) 40 Then Jonathan gave his weapons to the boy and said, "Go, carry them back to town."

41 After the boy had gone, David got up from the south side of the stone and bowed down before Jonathan three times, with his face to the ground. Then they kissed each other and wept together—but David wept the most."


2 Samuel 1:26; 19:1-6
"26 I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother;
you were very dear to me.
Your love for me was wonderful,
more wonderful than that of women."
"1 Joab was told, "The king is weeping and mourning for Absalom." 2 And
for the whole army the victory that day was turned into mourning, because
on that day the troops heard it said, "The king is grieving for his son." 3 The
men stole into the city that day as men steal in who are ashamed when they
flee from battle. 4 The king covered his face and cried aloud, "O my son
Absalom! O Absalom, my son, my son!"

5 Then Joab went into the house to the king and said, "Today you have
humiliated all your men, who have just saved your life and the lives of your
sons and daughters and the lives of your wives and concubines. 6 You love
those who hate you and hate those who love you. You have made it clear
today that the commanders and their men mean nothing to you. I see that
you would be pleased if Absalom were alive today and all of us were dead. "


1 Kings 15:12(see 14:24)
"12 He expelled the male shrine prostitutes from the land and got rid of all the idols his fathers had made."



Job 36:14
"14 They die in their youth,
among male prostitutes of the shrines."



Joel 3:3
"3 They cast lots for my people
and traded boys for prostitutes;
they sold girls for wine
that they might drink."



Romans 1:24-27
"24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."


1 Corinthians 6:9-10
"9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."


1 Timothy 1:10
"10for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers—and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine"



Revelation 17:5
"5This title was written on her forehead:
MYSTERY
BABYLON THE GREAT
THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH."


Strike thoughs are ones that deal with prostitutes.
Bolded are the examples of accepted homosexual behavior.
Questionable ones are in italics, as in they could mean homosexual but could not. (NOTE: Corinthians is italicized because of the translation to homosexual may not be correct.)

NOTE: All verses are from the NIV according to Biblegateway.com.

One that I know of that is not spoken of in this book but will be italicized.

Revelation 21:8
"8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death"

Mei tsuki7


Mei tsuki7

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:44 am


Nevermind. I don't feel like it. If you want the commentary ask for a certain verse and I'll type it up for you.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:44 am


In Medias Res IV
Nebulance
In Medias Res IV
Nebulance
Mar = Mark

In Medias Res IV, I was making points from the Torah against you (since when is Leviticus part of 'my Christian scripture' which is 'complete and utter bullshit'?), points which you continue to ignore. That's what I was talking about.


If you want to argue Leviticus with me, argue it from a JEWISH perspective. Leviticus wasn't written for goyim.


By 'JEWISH' perspective, do you mean YOUR perspective? Neither of us are Jews, and Orthodox Judaism would agree with ME.

So how about you quit ignoring the points I make just because you don't like them or can't answer them?


You have no right to say that I am not a Jew. It's against Torah to state that anyone isn't a Jew, especially if they're a Jew by Choice or a ger tzedek.

The Reform and Conservative movements disagree with you and they make up the majority of religious Jews.

Only a handful of people agree with you, that's not helping your case.


I don't need to help my case. So far it's gone unrefuted! biggrin So I guess I'm done, at least until someone else comes along that is actually able to contend my points!

Nebulance

Tipsy Reveler


In Medias Res IV

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:46 am


Nebulance
In Medias Res IV
Nebulance
In Medias Res IV
Nebulance
Mar = Mark

In Medias Res IV, I was making points from the Torah against you (since when is Leviticus part of 'my Christian scripture' which is 'complete and utter bullshit'?), points which you continue to ignore. That's what I was talking about.


If you want to argue Leviticus with me, argue it from a JEWISH perspective. Leviticus wasn't written for goyim.


By 'JEWISH' perspective, do you mean YOUR perspective? Neither of us are Jews, and Orthodox Judaism would agree with ME.

So how about you quit ignoring the points I make just because you don't like them or can't answer them?


You have no right to say that I am not a Jew. It's against Torah to state that anyone isn't a Jew, especially if they're a Jew by Choice or a ger tzedek.

The Reform and Conservative movements disagree with you and they make up the majority of religious Jews.

Only a handful of people agree with you, that's not helping your case.


I don't need to help my case. So far it's gone unrefuted! biggrin So I guess I'm done, at least until someone else comes along that is actually able to contend my points!



BAAWWW!!! I'M GOING TO IGNORE CONTEXT, HISTORY AND ETYMOLOGY AND TELL YOU MY FEELINGS BAAAWWW!!!! I DON"T LIKE HOMOSEXUALS BAAAWW!!!!

Is not proving a point.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:46 am


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/5550488/Homosexual-behaviour-widespread-in-animals-according-to-new-study.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31390058/ns/technology_and_science-science/

Those are the news stories I was looking for originally.

And I understand that you reject my point. But you wanted to see citation, so here we go.

Though it still seems silly to me that God would create animals (who do not have free will) to exhibit such reprehensible behavior, and then say, "Oh no, humans, you shouldn't do that!" Why make poor, innocent animals act in an un-innocent way?

alteregoivy


Nebulance

Tipsy Reveler

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:47 am


1. There is no evidence that Jonathan and David had sexual intercourse, which is the sin, according to Leviticus.

2. Even if they had, the Bible reports many sins without signifying its 'approval' of them. This would be one-- except it isn't at all clear that it happened.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:48 am


alteregoivy
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/5550488/Homosexual-behaviour-widespread-in-animals-according-to-new-study.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31390058/ns/technology_and_science-science/

Those are the news stories I was looking for originally.

And I understand that you reject my point. But you wanted to see citation, so here we go.

Though it still seems silly to me that God would create animals (who do not have free will) to exhibit such reprehensible behavior, and then say, "Oh no, humans, you shouldn't do that!" Why make poor, innocent animals act in an un-innocent way?


You see, some Christians think that G-d created something so he can hate it.

If they concede that homosexuality isn't a choice they say "Well it's part of your fallen nature".

Wait, so G-d created me with attraction towards women and won't let me have sex with it? G-d sure as hell is a ******** a*****e then, no?

I mean, he lets heterosexuals have sex and relationships without sin.

In Medias Res IV


Nebulance

Tipsy Reveler

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:52 am


In Medias Res IV
Nebulance
In Medias Res IV
Nebulance
In Medias Res IV
Nebulance
Mar = Mark

In Medias Res IV, I was making points from the Torah against you (since when is Leviticus part of 'my Christian scripture' which is 'complete and utter bullshit'?), points which you continue to ignore. That's what I was talking about.


If you want to argue Leviticus with me, argue it from a JEWISH perspective. Leviticus wasn't written for goyim.


By 'JEWISH' perspective, do you mean YOUR perspective? Neither of us are Jews, and Orthodox Judaism would agree with ME.

So how about you quit ignoring the points I make just because you don't like them or can't answer them?


You have no right to say that I am not a Jew. It's against Torah to state that anyone isn't a Jew, especially if they're a Jew by Choice or a ger tzedek.

The Reform and Conservative movements disagree with you and they make up the majority of religious Jews.

Only a handful of people agree with you, that's not helping your case.


I don't need to help my case. So far it's gone unrefuted! biggrin So I guess I'm done, at least until someone else comes along that is actually able to contend my points!



BAAWWW!!! I'M GOING TO IGNORE CONTEXT, HISTORY AND ETYMOLOGY AND TELL YOU MY FEELINGS BAAAWWW!!!! I DON"T LIKE HOMOSEXUALS BAAAWW!!!!

Is not proving a point.


I DARE YOU to find one instance in this very thorough discussion where I expressed negative personal feelings against homosexuals[edit]-- apart from you personally wink -- I certainly have become angry at you, but only for the way you 'debate'[/edit]. Not disapproval of their behavior based on rational interpretation of scripture, but negative 'feelings' against them.

I've already quoted the points that you won't answer so many times that I'm not going to bother. I'm done with this, and I leave the record of our discussion to vindicate me.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:57 am


Nebulance

I've already quoted the points that you won't answer so many times that I'm not going to bother. I'm done with this, and I leave the record of our discussion to vindicate me.


Because I have already proven to you that Leviticus was
1) For the high Jewish priests
2) If not for the priests then referring to Canaanite practises because of CONTEXT 3) NOT a sin because of TRANSLATION (A toeyvah is absolutely not a sin)
4) Not a sin in Christian terms because Judaism does not have mortal sin
5) Not about "fallen nature", Judaism rejects original sin.
6) and IF it is a sin, it is no worse than eating a ******** cheeseburger.

In Medias Res IV


Nebulance

Tipsy Reveler

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:01 pm


In Medias Res IV
Nebulance

I've already quoted the points that you won't answer so many times that I'm not going to bother. I'm done with this, and I leave the record of our discussion to vindicate me.


Because I have already proven to you that Leviticus was
1) For the high Jewish priests
2) If not for the priests then referring to Canaanite practises because of CONTEXT 3) NOT a sin because of TRANSLATION (A toeyvah is absolutely not a sin)
4) Not a sin in Christian terms because Judaism does not have mortal sin
5) Not about "fallen nature", Judaism rejects original sin.
6) and IF it is a sin, it is no worse than eating a ******** cheeseburger.


Great! And one of my points was that by that exact same logic, child sacrifice is not a sin either! So I'll be calling the police on you now...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:04 pm


Nebulance
In Medias Res IV
Nebulance

I've already quoted the points that you won't answer so many times that I'm not going to bother. I'm done with this, and I leave the record of our discussion to vindicate me.


Because I have already proven to you that Leviticus was
1) For the high Jewish priests
2) If not for the priests then referring to Canaanite practises because of CONTEXT 3) NOT a sin because of TRANSLATION (A toeyvah is absolutely not a sin)
4) Not a sin in Christian terms because Judaism does not have mortal sin
5) Not about "fallen nature", Judaism rejects original sin.
6) and IF it is a sin, it is no worse than eating a ******** cheeseburger.


Great! And one of my points was that by that exact same logic, child sacrifice is not a sin either! So I'll be calling the police on you now...


Except that is CLEAR in Leviticus. 18:22 can be interpreted to mean a shitload of things.

In Medias Res IV


Mei tsuki7

PostPosted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:07 pm


While I'm typing up this bible commentary, which will take a while, I want to see someone explaining why Jesus spoke of every other sin and yet he didn't speak of homosexuality. Also if Jesus didn't speak of every other sin show the other ones he didn't speak of that apply to Christianity. If people refuse to do this then I will stop with my typing up of my bible commentary. If I have to put effort in then so do all of you.
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