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Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:40 pm
The Lolwut Pear xDemonhornzx I thought we were encouraged to have these kinds of conversations, unless they're massive text walls...(Lara convo, anyone?) stare We're still going at it you know, and I'm loving every second of it, FE debates are among my many reasons why I love FE. xd I've been reading that, I just find that amusing.
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Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:41 pm
Explaining my reasoning in this post, followed by my opinion on why Jeigan is worse than Zealot.
For best: There are a LOT of Cavaliers/Pallys/Great Knights to consider, and plenty of good ones. But Seth, Aless, Sain, Oscar and arguably Titania are in a substantially higher tier. I think Seth wins it all, however, because he has literally perfect availability, is technically your best unit for a very long time, and has incredible growths for being the prepromote you receive at the beginning of the game. His growths are so good, he's essentially the most balanced Paladin you'll have if you compare all the 20/20 stats of every potential Paladin in that game. Only, in a serious runthrough without messing around to baby people in skirmishes or the tower, not everyone will hit 20/20. They'll likely hit 20/10. But Seth WILL be likely to be at level 20. Good support options, good unit to support, good affinity, etc… the only thing that could possibly make him more perfect is if Pally's had full Weapon Triangle Control still.
For worst: Jeigan has the absolute most hideous stat growths I've ever seen for someone you get immediately. It's Jeigan, and well, the archetype, right, but holy s**t. It's ridiculous. Other "Jeigans" at least have the bases that make them superior to everyone else initially. Jeigan? Same starting strength as Kain, and only 1-2 more points in various stats then either Kain or Abel. If you wanted to use a Jeigan for the sake of blocking things more effectively than other units would or meatshielding or something, there would be no real reason to actually use Jeigan for that job because he's hardly any better than the rest of the people you start with anyway. His only redeeming quality is the fact that he can instantly use a Silver Lance, and that's only of any value on HM5 or something.
Concerning Zealot… Zealot is obviously not competing for being the best Cavalier/Pally in the series. Heck, not even in his own game. But he's usable. YES, he's usable. He's in a game with actual supports, and can provide support to various units, is actually quite an asset on ranked runs thanks to his relatively higher than the rest of your party stats for a decent portion of the game and has good weapon ranks (A in Lances). Jeigan's just trash. Even if you JUST used Zealot for the sake of providing support bonuses to other characters (and he can be used for more that just that) he's being far more useful than Jeigan will ever be.
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Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:51 pm
Paranoia_favorate The Lolwut Pear xDemonhornzx I thought we were encouraged to have these kinds of conversations, unless they're massive text walls...(Lara convo, anyone?) stare We're still going at it you know, and I'm loving every second of it, FE debates are among my many reasons why I love FE. xd I've been reading that, I just find that amusing. That's great to know! I know a lot of people haven't played FE5 and want to and I think debating on units in that game is a great way to show people the game without spoiling much.
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Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:02 pm
And for that, Lolwut, FD, I appreciate your arguments.
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Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:42 pm
Here's my ruling for walls of post. I am ok with it unless I see that it's getting pointless to argue it anymore or its time to move to a different. Then I will tell you to take the conversation somewhere else.
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 3:59 pm
Buh, a class (classes?) of units I tend not to use once I get to about the halfway point, when everyone starts/should start classing up. Personal preference, that's all. Nevertheless, my votes go to:
Best: Bah, this is hard because I just don't use these types of units. I don't think I've ever taken any of them to endgame (except maybe Oscar once in FE 9). However, I'm going to say Seth (FE 8), mainly for the reasons FD mentioned. He's there from the get-go (Seth, not FD, sadly); his growths are fairly decent; as a prepromote he does not suck like Marcus, even in a game that is pretty much broken when it comes to ease of maxing stats; good supports (and he can pair up with Eirika so no one else *coughcoughEphraimcoughcough* has to). So yes, Seth has my vote.
Worst: Jeigan/Jagen (FE 11). Only usefulness is to be the mandatory sacrifice, nevermind being the one who game the name to the archetype.
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:56 pm
Best: Oscar. (FE9) This choice didn't come easy and I'm still wavering slightly. I never liked Seth and didn't have a need for him. Titania is really the first "Jeigan" who didn't suck and who I liked to use, but Oscar has a better affinity, better average stats, same starting chapter, and a triangle effect with his brothers. I also thought about Astrid (Who I love despite any opposition), and FE10 Geoffry.
Worst: Treck. (FE6) He comes in with Zealot and Noah in a chapter where it's so easy for him to die. It's a fun chapter, but I was freakin' out when those three came out in the middle of swarming enemies with mediocre stats and I've found him to be the most useless, pointless unit even when compared to Jeigans and Mathis. Plus, that chapter is pretty well into the game where you should already have a strong team. With characters like Jeigan, you get them early and have a sense of value even if only to serve as shields- and is there a better unit to have die at the beginning of FE1 than Jeigan? That in itself gives him a purpose for that game. I have not played FE1, but I know he sucks, however, he does still come at the start and can be used until your better characters come along. And Mathis has a purpose of dying, too, and even if you don't kill him off, he still comes fairly early and has the opportunity to be put to use better than Treck does. I also thought about Fiona, but I just couldn't settle on her. This said, the first doubt about my choice comes by bringing up his growths which are superior (in my mind) to Noah's. However, I would say Noah has better starting stats which are needed for their entering chapter and stage in the game, which puts him ahead in my book. But they both pale to Allen and Lance anyway.
Feel free to challenge my choices and see if you can persuade me otherwise.
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:45 pm
Actually, Rath, while I disagree with your choices to an extent (for them being hyperbole of best and worst, at least: Treck is definitely bad and Oscar is definitely good, I just don't think they're the best and worst), you've caused me to reconsider my own choice for worst. Because I forgot just how shitty Fiona is. She's so bad, when I was trying to think of every candidate for this category, she didn't even come to mind because she's that useless. Jeigan can use a Silver Lance I suppose, but Fiona? Absolutely horrendous starting stats, especially considering that by that time, you should be well on your way in developing the units you actually want to use from the Dawn Brigade. Plus, even if you decide to user her (which, the only reasonable way to do so is to dump all your bexp onto her), she can't traverse the swamps come Chapter 3-6, which limits her access to experience in one of the few exp-heavy chapters the Dawn Brigade has in Part 3. And if you think she has decent availability, think again. She's only around for two chapters in Part 1 (this is the reason she basically MUST be bexp-fed to even be considered usable later on), 3 (but really 2) in Part 3, and 2 in Part 4 before endgame. That's HORRIBLE for a Tier 1 unit. Scratch that. That's horrible for just about anyone, but the fact that she's a Tier 1 unit and has basically no availability means she's ********. You'd think she had at least Est-like growths, but they're nothing particularly special. They're good enough, but so are the growths for just about everyone else.
On the other hand, she has good enough averages, and she hits the magic Spd number of 34, allowing her to double all Spirits. She also provides an Earth Affinity, though I have no idea when she's supposed to actually develop a support with someone, considering her horrible availability, but it's there and I guess it can eventually be effectively capitalized upon (for like a chapter or 2). She also comes with some nifty skills, but she's not entitled to them by any means, so she doesn't really get credit for that.
So who's worse? Her or Jeigan? I'm starting to lean towards her, though I'm not sure what value can be inscribed to possibly providing an Earth affinity to support with, even if she'll suck when fielded, and even if the support could only really be capitalized upon for a couple of chapters at best. That requires fielding her every chapter she's available, however, and her taking up a slot almost certainly better used by someone else. And really, it's kind of laughable to even seriously expect her to be at a decent level, since getting her to one through bexp will reduce her stat gains overall and mean you'd have a LOT less bexp to make the rest of your party broken with. So while she has certain things to offer if given enormous favoritism and resources, giving her such things results in a net negative.
Fiona may very well be worse than any of the people we've all been mentioning. Thoughts?
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:08 pm
Best: I don't know if it's because I am currently playing Shadow Dragon, but I seem to like Cain a lot. His skills with the sword are amazing partly because of his strength. I like having him out on the field with Able too, I have them tag team enemies, but I love Cain more because he has better defensive stats so he attacks first; so Able can finish the enemy off with a critical hit with a lance.
Worst: I hate Matthis in Shadow Dragon, He is so weak even with an A sword level. I think his stats reflect his personality.... pacifists don't make good units.... >.< Also it doesn't help that he is squishy too...
...Maybe I am too hard on my units when I am playing FE... but that's probably how I am.
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Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:56 pm
In all honesty, I thought about the fact you get her in part one and that she has earth affinity and all that, but in the end it didn't matter how I tried rationalizing her not being worse than Treck. I have an inescapable bias of loving her character design and the fact that she's black which, yes, makes a difference, especially in Fire Emblem. It makes me WANT to try using her. She is unique; I guarantee most people made an effort at utilizing her upon their first playthrough because of her class, character (possibly including the events leading to her recruitment, which includes the gameplay), or appearance. There's nothing about Treck that makes me want to try him at all. He is grossly in the background and unimpressive. If people had to choose between him and Noah, I bet close to 9/10 of people would choose Noah instead, if only because of his pairing with Fir and relative handsomeness.
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Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:36 am
Best: Oscar. (Fe:9) Ya' know, I don't really like choosing on this. Because I like Cain and Abel. They turn out nice, and I, like BlA5tFiRe, like having them on the field of battle together. Cain with his sword and Abel with his lance. But I wouldn't say there the best. And I also like Oscar as well as Seth. Oscar turns out pretty amazing and he is fun to level up, well. Seth is okay and like Titania, there both already leveled up. So that doesn't really make it fun. Good units, but not fun. Oscar really is worth it, with his stats. And I don't know who is better then Oscar.
Worst: Matthis (Fe:11) Well, I agree with what FD said, for all the reasons as well. Fiona is horrible. I mean there is Makalov who I didn't like as well. Makalov you get in chapter 14 which in my opinon is far to late in the game for me. He does have good strength and okay HP but I never did like him. And Fiona who isn't worth anything. Her growths are rather bad. :/ OH! And that is right, you do have Matthis! I mean he does nothing! He is a pacifist, and his stats seem like they cannot go up! D< Jagen, I shoved him in the back and didn't use him ever cause other people should have the EXP. So I really cannot give him anything accurate. Um, so deciding between Makalov, Fiona, and Matthis....Ffffff...Ugh....Well...Matthis, cause he died to many times when I gave him a chance.
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:52 pm
Treck and Matthis are at least usable without going to extreme lengths though. And when used, they turn out decent enough (and if someone's dying to many times, wouldn't that presumably be the tactician's fault?). Treck's growths make for a perfectly capable unit once he catches up (and both he and Matthis come early enough to be integrated into the party without too much hassle), while Matthis could arguably be considered the Lowen of FE11 when looking only at units who start as Cavaliers - 90% HP and 30% Def growths are higher than Cain, Abel, Frey, Hardin, Roshea, and Vyland. Matthis also has the same 40% Str growth as Abel (the Str-based one of his pair). Additionally, once they join, they don't decide to back out for various chapters unlike Fiona, so their early joining times are actually meaningful, which can't be said of Fiona. If someone tries using Fiona their first time, it'll only end up hurting them in the long run. Not the case for Treck or Matthis. Yeah... I think I'm gonna change my vote to Fiona.
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:23 pm
The votes have been tallied and the new topic is chosen the best/worst final chapter.
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:36 pm
Best: Fire Emblem 7.
Worst: Fire Emblem 8. Why? Demon King is a noob.
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:13 pm
Best: FE3 Book II- A four chapter long Endgame of an a*****e purge of who caused Marth grief along the way and I love it. Granted, the final boss pt. 4 is a wuss with the Again Staff/Feena the Dancer abuse, but every other part is awesome.
Worst: Ironically FE5 and FE4 is up there: In FE5 you kill a guy you met/saw for .5 seconds and probably forgot who he was by Endgame.. not to mention there are six pathetic bosses protecting him and a small army of axe users that Lara totally rapes in my plays. For fighting him? ORKO Holsety to the rescue! I think FE5 Endgame is a spit on the face for such a "hard" game to award you with a wuss of an Endgame.
Why FE4 is up there because of the last part: the northern part can seriously be handled by Holsety and Narga (no chance in Hell of Julia dying against the final boss so long as she has Narga) but the reason why FE4 isn't the worst is because at least it has SOME challenge to it (ie: the warlords) opposed to FE5 which FD once mentioned can be cleared in three rounds.
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