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 Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:00 am
Nebulance -Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden -steps on soapbox-
I'm going to go over key verses and explain what the Bible doesn't say about Homosexuality and why you shouldn't really pay pastors any mind. biggrin
First up is LeviticusLeviticus 18:22 NIV 22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. Now what's interesting about Leviticus is that it's apart of the OT. As many of you know, the OT is the first 5 books of the Torah, Tankh. As many of you know or should know is that the Torah is Jewish law. Now why should a Christian follow Jewish law? Since when were Christians Jewish? Leviticus refers to Jewish priests not Homosexuals.
Now in Deuteronomy 23:17, Canaanites had male and female prostitutes. The Hebrew word for male prostitute is actually qadesh not Sodomite. What your pastor told you happens to be a mistranslation. Also it's referring to idolatry being an abomination. They considered same sex relations to be idolatrous not adulterous.Leviticus 20:13 NIV 13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
However according to Galataians 3:22-25, we are no longer required to follow Jewish Law.
Galatians 3:22-25 NIV 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[a] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
Now onto Romans.
ROMANS 1:24-27 4Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Paul is actually describing to God in an "unnatural way" by accepting the Gentile Christians. Unnatural does not refer to that of which isn't nature but the contradiction of one's own nature. Because of this we should view a person who either gay or lesbian as being "unnatural" trying to live as a straight person.
The interesting thing about Romans 1:26 is that this could be the only reference of lesbianism in the Bible, it's plausible but not really possible. However, this verse could actually be referring to women having a more dominant role, it's possible, seeing that during Paul's time, his culture was very repressive and restrictive of women.
The homosexual acts described in Roman 1:27 aren't the same acts that we see today. The homosexual acts we see today are more loving and caring than what they were in Paul's time. In those days, it was more idolatrous.
Next up: Corinthians.I CORINTHIANS 6:9 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
In short, there is no law, no condemnation or a sin against Homosexuality. There is nothing wrong with it. God is not against the current version of homosexuality. Many people who are Gay, Lesbian, Bi, Transgender, etc are not only in committed relationships but love each other like a straight couple would. What you guys are doing is wrongly judging homosexuals. Refer to Matthew 7:1.
Also, Paul made it very very clear in Galatians.Galatians 5:14 NIV: The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." What you guys are doing isn't what Paul or even Jesus commanded. You are ignoring the Law of Agape. You guys should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously.
Stop listening to what your pastors teach you. Try taking about Hebrew and Greek in order to find out the true meaning of the Bible. Don't believe everything the Bible says at face value. Dig deeper into it. There is a lot more than what you see.
-steps down- Yes, this is the popular position to take on Gaia. I've already made my argument about Romans 1 and given my rebuttal of this kind of interpretation of it on Page 3 of this topic. Also, see my last post on this page for examination of the whole 'natural' debate. In Medias, did God also make you selfish? Because like every one of us humans on this Earth, you 'naturally' are. It's part of our fallen nature. And being homosexual is also part of yours. And no, I'm not ignoring Agape. I don't go about hating on homosexuals. However, I am trying to follow and submit to God's will, as He says all who love Him will do. Thus, interpreting the Bible accurately on this issue is important. Some of the Christians here are a bit confused. They seem to think that loving your neighbor as yourself is the greatest commandment. It's not. Loving the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul is the greatest commandment. And that means trying to follow His will, even when it offends others. If that is the greatest commandment then why did Paul state in Galatians 5:14 that the entire law is summed up in one command, Love Thy Neighbor? Can you please provide scripture backing up that loving God is more important? neutral
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:02 am
Nebulance Mei tsuki7 Nebulance Mei tsuki7 The Rotten Banana v2 leviticus 20:13-20:13 "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. " Romans 1:26-27 "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature." "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men, working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense for their error which was meet." All I have for right now. Leviticus is for the Jews not Christians. So the natural use of women is sex with men? Well isn't that sexist. prove that unnatural = immoral. *Sigh*... I really don't want to repeat everything we've said for the last few pages. Just copy pasta cause i don't feel like searching for it. All right, give me a minute and I'll see what I can do. In Medias Res IV, let's try to stay on track with the discussion we're having right now, though. Ok. I'll wait. I need to get a drink anyway.
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:02 am
Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for [just] any reason?"
Mat 19:4 And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made [them] at the beginning 'made them male and female,'
Mat 19:5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?
Mat 19:6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:07 am
-Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden Nebulance -Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden -steps on soapbox-
I'm going to go over key verses and explain what the Bible doesn't say about Homosexuality and why you shouldn't really pay pastors any mind. biggrin
First up is LeviticusLeviticus 18:22 NIV 22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. Now what's interesting about Leviticus is that it's apart of the OT. As many of you know, the OT is the first 5 books of the Torah, Tankh. As many of you know or should know is that the Torah is Jewish law. Now why should a Christian follow Jewish law? Since when were Christians Jewish? Leviticus refers to Jewish priests not Homosexuals.
Now in Deuteronomy 23:17, Canaanites had male and female prostitutes. The Hebrew word for male prostitute is actually qadesh not Sodomite. What your pastor told you happens to be a mistranslation. Also it's referring to idolatry being an abomination. They considered same sex relations to be idolatrous not adulterous.Leviticus 20:13 NIV 13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
However according to Galataians 3:22-25, we are no longer required to follow Jewish Law.
Galatians 3:22-25 NIV 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[a] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
Now onto Romans.
ROMANS 1:24-27 4Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Paul is actually describing to God in an "unnatural way" by accepting the Gentile Christians. Unnatural does not refer to that of which isn't nature but the contradiction of one's own nature. Because of this we should view a person who either gay or lesbian as being "unnatural" trying to live as a straight person.
The interesting thing about Romans 1:26 is that this could be the only reference of lesbianism in the Bible, it's plausible but not really possible. However, this verse could actually be referring to women having a more dominant role, it's possible, seeing that during Paul's time, his culture was very repressive and restrictive of women.
The homosexual acts described in Roman 1:27 aren't the same acts that we see today. The homosexual acts we see today are more loving and caring than what they were in Paul's time. In those days, it was more idolatrous.
Next up: Corinthians.I CORINTHIANS 6:9 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
In short, there is no law, no condemnation or a sin against Homosexuality. There is nothing wrong with it. God is not against the current version of homosexuality. Many people who are Gay, Lesbian, Bi, Transgender, etc are not only in committed relationships but love each other like a straight couple would. What you guys are doing is wrongly judging homosexuals. Refer to Matthew 7:1.
Also, Paul made it very very clear in Galatians.Galatians 5:14 NIV: The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." What you guys are doing isn't what Paul or even Jesus commanded. You are ignoring the Law of Agape. You guys should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously.
Stop listening to what your pastors teach you. Try taking about Hebrew and Greek in order to find out the true meaning of the Bible. Don't believe everything the Bible says at face value. Dig deeper into it. There is a lot more than what you see.
-steps down- Yes, this is the popular position to take on Gaia. I've already made my argument about Romans 1 and given my rebuttal of this kind of interpretation of it on Page 3 of this topic. Also, see my last post on this page for examination of the whole 'natural' debate. In Medias, did God also make you selfish? Because like every one of us humans on this Earth, you 'naturally' are. It's part of our fallen nature. And being homosexual is also part of yours. And no, I'm not ignoring Agape. I don't go about hating on homosexuals. However, I am trying to follow and submit to God's will, as He says all who love Him will do. Thus, interpreting the Bible accurately on this issue is important. Some of the Christians here are a bit confused. They seem to think that loving your neighbor as yourself is the greatest commandment. It's not. Loving the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul is the greatest commandment. And that means trying to follow His will, even when it offends others. If that is the greatest commandment then why did Paul state in Galatians 5:14 that the entire law is summed up in one command, Love Thy Neighbor? Can you please provide scripture backing up that loving God is more important? neutral Gladly-- thanks for asking: Mar 12:28 Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, "Which is the first commandment of all?"
Mar 12:29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments [is]: 'Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Mar 12:30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This [is] the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second, like [it, is] this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these."
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:09 am
Nebulance -Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden Nebulance -Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden -steps on soapbox-
I'm going to go over key verses and explain what the Bible doesn't say about Homosexuality and why you shouldn't really pay pastors any mind. biggrin
First up is LeviticusLeviticus 18:22 NIV 22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. Now what's interesting about Leviticus is that it's apart of the OT. As many of you know, the OT is the first 5 books of the Torah, Tankh. As many of you know or should know is that the Torah is Jewish law. Now why should a Christian follow Jewish law? Since when were Christians Jewish? Leviticus refers to Jewish priests not Homosexuals.
Now in Deuteronomy 23:17, Canaanites had male and female prostitutes. The Hebrew word for male prostitute is actually qadesh not Sodomite. What your pastor told you happens to be a mistranslation. Also it's referring to idolatry being an abomination. They considered same sex relations to be idolatrous not adulterous.Leviticus 20:13 NIV 13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
However according to Galataians 3:22-25, we are no longer required to follow Jewish Law.
Galatians 3:22-25 NIV 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[a] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
Now onto Romans.
ROMANS 1:24-27 4Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Paul is actually describing to God in an "unnatural way" by accepting the Gentile Christians. Unnatural does not refer to that of which isn't nature but the contradiction of one's own nature. Because of this we should view a person who either gay or lesbian as being "unnatural" trying to live as a straight person.
The interesting thing about Romans 1:26 is that this could be the only reference of lesbianism in the Bible, it's plausible but not really possible. However, this verse could actually be referring to women having a more dominant role, it's possible, seeing that during Paul's time, his culture was very repressive and restrictive of women.
The homosexual acts described in Roman 1:27 aren't the same acts that we see today. The homosexual acts we see today are more loving and caring than what they were in Paul's time. In those days, it was more idolatrous.
Next up: Corinthians.I CORINTHIANS 6:9 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
In short, there is no law, no condemnation or a sin against Homosexuality. There is nothing wrong with it. God is not against the current version of homosexuality. Many people who are Gay, Lesbian, Bi, Transgender, etc are not only in committed relationships but love each other like a straight couple would. What you guys are doing is wrongly judging homosexuals. Refer to Matthew 7:1.
Also, Paul made it very very clear in Galatians.Galatians 5:14 NIV: The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." What you guys are doing isn't what Paul or even Jesus commanded. You are ignoring the Law of Agape. You guys should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously.
Stop listening to what your pastors teach you. Try taking about Hebrew and Greek in order to find out the true meaning of the Bible. Don't believe everything the Bible says at face value. Dig deeper into it. There is a lot more than what you see.
-steps down- Yes, this is the popular position to take on Gaia. I've already made my argument about Romans 1 and given my rebuttal of this kind of interpretation of it on Page 3 of this topic. Also, see my last post on this page for examination of the whole 'natural' debate. In Medias, did God also make you selfish? Because like every one of us humans on this Earth, you 'naturally' are. It's part of our fallen nature. And being homosexual is also part of yours. And no, I'm not ignoring Agape. I don't go about hating on homosexuals. However, I am trying to follow and submit to God's will, as He says all who love Him will do. Thus, interpreting the Bible accurately on this issue is important. Some of the Christians here are a bit confused. They seem to think that loving your neighbor as yourself is the greatest commandment. It's not. Loving the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul is the greatest commandment. And that means trying to follow His will, even when it offends others. If that is the greatest commandment then why did Paul state in Galatians 5:14 that the entire law is summed up in one command, Love Thy Neighbor? Can you please provide scripture backing up that loving God is more important? neutral Gladly-- thanks for asking: Mar 12:28 Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, "Which is the first commandment of all?"
Mar 12:29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments [is]: 'Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Mar 12:30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This [is] the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second, like [it, is] this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." Quick question: What is Mar? o.o
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:10 am
Nebulance -Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden Nebulance -Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden -steps on soapbox-
I'm going to go over key verses and explain what the Bible doesn't say about Homosexuality and why you shouldn't really pay pastors any mind. biggrin
First up is LeviticusLeviticus 18:22 NIV 22 Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable. Now what's interesting about Leviticus is that it's apart of the OT. As many of you know, the OT is the first 5 books of the Torah, Tankh. As many of you know or should know is that the Torah is Jewish law. Now why should a Christian follow Jewish law? Since when were Christians Jewish? Leviticus refers to Jewish priests not Homosexuals.
Now in Deuteronomy 23:17, Canaanites had male and female prostitutes. The Hebrew word for male prostitute is actually qadesh not Sodomite. What your pastor told you happens to be a mistranslation. Also it's referring to idolatry being an abomination. They considered same sex relations to be idolatrous not adulterous.Leviticus 20:13 NIV 13 " 'If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.
However according to Galataians 3:22-25, we are no longer required to follow Jewish Law.
Galatians 3:22-25 NIV 22But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[a] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
Now onto Romans.
ROMANS 1:24-27 4Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Paul is actually describing to God in an "unnatural way" by accepting the Gentile Christians. Unnatural does not refer to that of which isn't nature but the contradiction of one's own nature. Because of this we should view a person who either gay or lesbian as being "unnatural" trying to live as a straight person.
The interesting thing about Romans 1:26 is that this could be the only reference of lesbianism in the Bible, it's plausible but not really possible. However, this verse could actually be referring to women having a more dominant role, it's possible, seeing that during Paul's time, his culture was very repressive and restrictive of women.
The homosexual acts described in Roman 1:27 aren't the same acts that we see today. The homosexual acts we see today are more loving and caring than what they were in Paul's time. In those days, it was more idolatrous.
Next up: Corinthians.I CORINTHIANS 6:9 9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
In short, there is no law, no condemnation or a sin against Homosexuality. There is nothing wrong with it. God is not against the current version of homosexuality. Many people who are Gay, Lesbian, Bi, Transgender, etc are not only in committed relationships but love each other like a straight couple would. What you guys are doing is wrongly judging homosexuals. Refer to Matthew 7:1.
Also, Paul made it very very clear in Galatians.Galatians 5:14 NIV: The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." What you guys are doing isn't what Paul or even Jesus commanded. You are ignoring the Law of Agape. You guys should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously.
Stop listening to what your pastors teach you. Try taking about Hebrew and Greek in order to find out the true meaning of the Bible. Don't believe everything the Bible says at face value. Dig deeper into it. There is a lot more than what you see.
-steps down- Yes, this is the popular position to take on Gaia. I've already made my argument about Romans 1 and given my rebuttal of this kind of interpretation of it on Page 3 of this topic. Also, see my last post on this page for examination of the whole 'natural' debate. In Medias, did God also make you selfish? Because like every one of us humans on this Earth, you 'naturally' are. It's part of our fallen nature. And being homosexual is also part of yours. And no, I'm not ignoring Agape. I don't go about hating on homosexuals. However, I am trying to follow and submit to God's will, as He says all who love Him will do. Thus, interpreting the Bible accurately on this issue is important. Some of the Christians here are a bit confused. They seem to think that loving your neighbor as yourself is the greatest commandment. It's not. Loving the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul is the greatest commandment. And that means trying to follow His will, even when it offends others. If that is the greatest commandment then why did Paul state in Galatians 5:14 that the entire law is summed up in one command, Love Thy Neighbor? Can you please provide scripture backing up that loving God is more important? neutral Gladly-- thanks for asking: Mar 12:28 Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, "Which is the first commandment of all?"
Mar 12:29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments [is]: 'Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Mar 12:30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This [is] the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second, like [it, is] this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." So how does being homosexual interfere with loving God or your neighbor?
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:12 am
Nebulance Mei tsuki7 Nebulance Mei tsuki7 The Rotten Banana v2 leviticus 20:13-20:13 "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. " Romans 1:26-27 "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature." "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men, working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense for their error which was meet." All I have for right now. Leviticus is for the Jews not Christians. So the natural use of women is sex with men? Well isn't that sexist. prove that unnatural = immoral. *Sigh*... I really don't want to repeat everything we've said for the last few pages. Just copy pasta cause i don't feel like searching for it. All right, give me a minute and I'll see what I can do. In Medias Res IV, let's try to stay on track with the discussion we're having right now, though. On track?! I'm not a Christian, your Christian scripture in my opinion is complete and utter bullshit. Jesus to me is complete and utter bullshit so having a Christian tell me that I am sinning is complete and utter bullshit. If you can't handle that eating pork is the same as having gay sex, if and only if Leviticus is referring to a committed and loving homosexual relationship, that's not my problem but it doesn't make me invalid.
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:12 am
Nebulance Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for [just] any reason?" Mat 19:4 And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made [them] at the beginning 'made them male and female,' Mat 19:5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? Mat 19:6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate." The context of that is that divorce was a controversial topic back then and the Pharisees wanted to entrap him so they could condemn him. He gave the only reply he could to same himself from condemnation.
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:12 am
Mei tsuki7 Vasilius Konstantinos Mei tsuki7 Question to all Christians: If homosexuality is a sin why didn't Jesus say anything against it? He spoke of all the other sins did he not? So why not homosexuality? No He did not speak of every single sin. And not everything is discussed in Sacred Scripture either, in any faith. Then what sins did he not speak of? GO and read what He did not mention for your own. I am not going to thumb through every sin discussed and not discussed. Let me explain something a bit further. Where in the Field manual for the US army does it locate the latrine for field bases? It does not, though there are latrines on every base. Christ spoke of sins, some very generally and assumed to be sinful by Hebraic Tradition and Text. Should He have had vocalized what is sin and not sin when He came to abolish sin by bridging the gap of Death for us to have eternal life? I do not put much emphasis on Sacred Scripture when it comes to the establishment of Christianity. I am not Sola Scriptura, hence the Holy Bible is not the foundation of my Church but Jesus Christ, through apostolic succession founded the Church and in Itself is a myriad of Tradition and Truth. The Sacred Scriptures are a tool of the Church, not the foundation of the Church. When one only has the Sacred Scriptures, one only has a portion of the Church, but not the whole.
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:22 am
Mei tsuki7 The Rotten Banana v2 leviticus 20:13-20:13 "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them. " Romans 1:26-27 "For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature." "And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men, working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense for their error which was meet." All I have for right now. Leviticus is for the Jews not Christians. I've been arguing against homosexual activity for Jews from the Torah for the last few pages because In Medias Res claimed the Torah wasn't against it. I use Romans to argue against homosexual activity for Christians, because it's even easier to prove and it's obviously New Covenant. Mei tsuki7 So the natural use of women is sex with men? Well isn't that sexist. prove that unnatural = immoral. Nebulance I'm saying that there's a difference between what may be normally occuring behavior and God-designed behavior-- behavior that is 'fitting,' or morally natural. Obviously, it is not 'unnatural' (in one sense of the word) for humans to be homosexual, simply because many of them are. But it may still be unfitting, in the sense that God designed it to work another way. You ask, why would so many humans be homosexual today, if God designed us differently? The answer, as the Bible gives it to us, is that humans brought this down upon themselves.Forgive the length of the passage I'm quoting here-- I want to make sure it's in proper context-- but I've put the key bits in bold for you: Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
Rom 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown [it] to them.
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible [attributes] are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,
Rom 1:21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify [Him] as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.
Rom 1:27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
Rom 1:29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; [they are] whisperers,
Rom 1:30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them. Homosexuality is simply a part of the sinful nature that we inherit. Everyone is not disposed to every sin, but everyone has their nature distorted in some way because of the Fall. Here's a commentary that sums up some of my points well: David Guzik's Bible Commentary It is an abomination: This command is commonly objected to on the grounds that one was born - or created - with homosexual desires. “I was born this way; God made me a homosexual. It is my nature to be homosexual; it would be against my nature to be heterosexual.” i. The problem is that the Bible says we are all sinners by nature; not a single person is born without an attraction to sin in some way or another. We should not say that God made the homosexual; we could say that Adam did, when he passed on the effects of his rebellion to the entire human race. ii. Our inborn attraction to sin justifies nothing. The one who practices homosexuality can no more justify himself by saying “I was born this way” than can the person who hates homosexuals justify their ungodly hatred by saying “I was born this way.” iii. Many justify homosexual practice on the basis of love. They might say, “How can it be wrong to love someone of my own sex? How can love be wrong?” Yet if someone loves their children, it does not justify sexual conduct with them. The issue isn’t love; the issue is of sexual conduct. Of course, the Bible in no way condemns love between people of the same sex, but it does say that sexual conduct between those people is sin.
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:25 am
Mar = Mark
In Medias Res IV, I was making points from the Torah against you (since when is Leviticus part of 'my Christian scripture' which is 'complete and utter bullshit'?), points which you continue to ignore. That's what I was talking about.
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:27 am
Mei tsuki7 Nebulance Mat 19:3 The Pharisees also came to Him, testing Him, and saying to Him, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for [just] any reason?" Mat 19:4 And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made [them] at the beginning 'made them male and female,' Mat 19:5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? Mat 19:6 So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate." The context of that is that divorce was a controversial topic back then and the Pharisees wanted to entrap him so they could condemn him. He gave the only reply he could to same himself from condemnation. Jesus did not cater to the whims of His time. His teachings were radical, considered blasphemous by the Jewish religious authorities, and eventually got Him crucified.
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:30 am
Nebulance Mar = Mark In Medias Res IV, I was making points from the Torah against you (since when is Leviticus part of 'my Christian scripture' which is 'complete and utter bullshit'?), points which you continue to ignore. That's what I was talking about. If you want to argue Leviticus with me, argue it from a JEWISH perspective. Leviticus wasn't written for goyim.
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 11:34 am
Riiko..Izawa Nebulance -Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden Nebulance -Tsukiyo-Moon Maiden -steps on soapbox-
I'm going to go over key verses and explain what the Bible doesn't say about Homosexuality and why you shouldn't really pay pastors any mind. biggrin
First up is Leviticus Now what's interesting about Leviticus is that it's apart of the OT. As many of you know, the OT is the first 5 books of the Torah, Tankh. As many of you know or should know is that the Torah is Jewish law. Now why should a Christian follow Jewish law? Since when were Christians Jewish? Leviticus refers to Jewish priests not Homosexuals.
Now in Deuteronomy 23:17, Canaanites had male and female prostitutes. The Hebrew word for male prostitute is actually qadesh not Sodomite. What your pastor told you happens to be a mistranslation. Also it's referring to idolatry being an abomination. They considered same sex relations to be idolatrous not adulterous. An abomination is something that God finds to be unclean. There are many things that God deems as unclean like shrimp for example.
However according to Galataians 3:22-25, we are no longer required to follow Jewish Law.
Now onto Romans.
Many of the NT books don't actually talk about homosexual relationships, they're actually quite silent on them. Paul is the only author of the NT books to even mention it. Must make him feel pretty special right? However, Romans refers to the same thing Leviticus refers to, in regards to homosexuality, idolatry.
Paul is actually describing to God in an "unnatural way" by accepting the Gentile Christians. Unnatural does not refer to that of which isn't nature but the contradiction of one's own nature. Because of this we should view a person who either gay or lesbian as being "unnatural" trying to live as a straight person.
The interesting thing about Romans 1:26 is that this could be the only reference of lesbianism in the Bible, it's plausible but not really possible. However, this verse could actually be referring to women having a more dominant role, it's possible, seeing that during Paul's time, his culture was very repressive and restrictive of women.
The homosexual acts described in Roman 1:27 aren't the same acts that we see today. The homosexual acts we see today are more loving and caring than what they were in Paul's time. In those days, it was more idolatrous.
Next up: Corinthians.This is a mistranslation. Sorry guys. What Paul was really condemning was those who were effeminate and abusers of mankind. People have unmasked the homophobic undertones of this verse. The first word Malkos which in Greek is effeminate isn't taking about guys who act like women. Sorry but no. It's talking about those who lack any discipline or any moral control. The second word arsenokoitai which occurs once in Corinthians and once in Timothy, but it doesn't occur in any other book. It comes from two Greek words, one meaning male, the other being bed. It's a euphemism for sexual intercourse. There were other Greek words were commonly used to refer to homosexuality, however, but the don't appear in this book. Taking a closer look at Corinthians we can tell that Paul was actually concerned with Prostitutes, not Gays. However people have translated this verse, the problem is they did it incorrectly. Compared to the original Hebrew and Greek versions, this verse is completely different.
In short, there is no law, no condemnation or a sin against Homosexuality. There is nothing wrong with it. God is not against the current version of homosexuality. Many people who are Gay, Lesbian, Bi, Transgender, etc are not only in committed relationships but love each other like a straight couple would. What you guys are doing is wrongly judging homosexuals. Refer to Matthew 7:1.
Also, Paul made it very very clear in Galatians.Galatians 5:14 NIV: The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." What you guys are doing isn't what Paul or even Jesus commanded. You are ignoring the Law of Agape. You guys should be ashamed of yourself. Seriously.
Stop listening to what your pastors teach you. Try taking about Hebrew and Greek in order to find out the true meaning of the Bible. Don't believe everything the Bible says at face value. Dig deeper into it. There is a lot more than what you see.
-steps down- Yes, this is the popular position to take on Gaia. I've already made my argument about Romans 1 and given my rebuttal of this kind of interpretation of it on Page 3 of this topic. Also, see my last post on this page for examination of the whole 'natural' debate. In Medias, did God also make you selfish? Because like every one of us humans on this Earth, you 'naturally' are. It's part of our fallen nature. And being homosexual is also part of yours. And no, I'm not ignoring Agape. I don't go about hating on homosexuals. However, I am trying to follow and submit to God's will, as He says all who love Him will do. Thus, interpreting the Bible accurately on this issue is important. Some of the Christians here are a bit confused. They seem to think that loving your neighbor as yourself is the greatest commandment. It's not. Loving the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, and soul is the greatest commandment. And that means trying to follow His will, even when it offends others. If that is the greatest commandment then why did Paul state in Galatians 5:14 that the entire law is summed up in one command, Love Thy Neighbor? Can you please provide scripture backing up that loving God is more important? neutral Gladly-- thanks for asking: Mar 12:28 Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him, "Which is the first commandment of all?"
Mar 12:29 Jesus answered him, "The first of all the commandments [is]: 'Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one.
Mar 12:30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.' This [is] the first commandment.
Mar 12:31 And the second, like [it, is] this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." So how does being homosexual interfere with loving God or your neighbor? Being homosexual doesn't. Denying what God says in the Bible about homosexual activity interferes with loving God: Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
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