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 Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 6:21 am
Nuclearwinter ColinMackay I think that I'm finally rounding out my Praetorians. It's taken my forever and a day but I think I now understand what it is that I'm going to do. Basic command platoon with 2 special weapons teams(snipers) and a Sentinel squad for HQ, Ogryns and Hardened Vets (possibly Storm Troopers) for my elites. Infantry and Storm Troopers(Grenadiers) for my Troops, followed by Sentinels and two ranks of Rough Riders for my FA and round it off with a Leman Russ for my Heavy Support. I'll be picking and choosing my units between these depending on what size battle I'll be playing. As for my Doctrines, here's what I have so far: • Grenadiers • Sharpshooters • Ogryn squads • Rough Rider squadrons • ? I'm honestly not sure what to do with them at this point with that last doctrine. Maybe Drop Troops might not be a bad thing. There's a lot to choose from, I guess that I'm just one for fast paced and up-close and personal when it comes to my guard. I'd rather spend more points on my units than simply buying more units. Even though it's guard, I'd still like to apply the quality over quantity rule if I can. If I want quantity, then I'd use Conscript Platoons. As for the Russ, I'd be a fool if I didn't have at least the one tank for support. a few suggestions: sniper squads are usless, they only have three shots and need a 4+ to wound. that and the fact that almost all armies have high leadership makes the sniper rilfe almost completly useless. for a few extra points replace them with fire support squads w/hvy bolters. they have more shots, and good strength so even against marines you can wound on 3+. they just preform better than snipers. For the remaining doctrine choice make it "close order drill". It's free and when your infantry stand in a tightly packed line you get +1 to Ld and I (they form a firing line of guns and bayonets) very good for assult and if you don't want to use it (cause of blast template weapons) then don't worry about it cause it's free anyway. and lastly, i want to know how you break down your infantry platoon(s) cause every guard amry should have at least one. and your command squad too. good planning in a platoon can make them deadly edit: oh and as for the storm troopers, give them plasma weapons. Bs of 4 and the option of taking 2 special weapons per squad. means they are some of your best choices for dealing with 2+ armor saves.
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Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:43 pm
A quick question:
Is it bad to try and have as many upgrades for your guardsmen as possible, especially with the addition of wargear to characters, to make them more powerful but at the expense of a very expensive guard army?
Also, a side question in relation; do doctrines cost points per model to have them applied, or something to that degree?
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Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:47 pm
Xenos Mortium A quick question: Is it bad to try and have as many upgrades for your guardsmen as possible, especially with the addition of wargear to characters, to make them more powerful but at the expense of a very expensive guard army? Also, a side question in relation; do doctrines cost points per model to have them applied, or something to that degree? Some doctrines do, some don't. Only work for upgraded Guard if you're playing 1000pt+. Anything smaller, your upgrades are just a sink in your all-too-few points.
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Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 8:58 pm
DarkElf27 Xenos Mortium A quick question: Is it bad to try and have as many upgrades for your guardsmen as possible, especially with the addition of wargear to characters, to make them more powerful but at the expense of a very expensive guard army? Also, a side question in relation; do doctrines cost points per model to have them applied, or something to that degree? Some doctrines do, some don't. Only work for upgraded Guard if you're playing 1000pt+. Anything smaller, your upgrades are just a sink in your all-too-few points. giving guardsmen every upgrade possible? no won't work in anygame. it's just a waste of points to have guys worth almost the same as a space marine with T3 and a 4+armor save (assuming you give them carapace armor) even will as many upgrades as possible a guardsmen squad still won't pack a lot of fire power.
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 10:29 am
ColinMackay I think that I'm finally rounding out my Praetorians. It's taken my forever and a day but I think I now understand what it is that I'm going to do. Basic command platoon with 2 special weapons teams(snipers) and a Sentinel squad for HQ, Ogryns and Hardened Vets (possibly Storm Troopers) for my elites. Infantry and Storm Troopers(Grenadiers) for my Troops, followed by Sentinels and two ranks of Rough Riders for my FA and round it off with a Leman Russ for my Heavy Support. I'll be picking and choosing my units between these depending on what size battle I'll be playing. As for my Doctrines, here's what I have so far: • Grenadiers • Sharpshooters • Ogryn squads • Rough Rider squadrons • ? I'm honestly not sure what to do with them at this point with that last doctrine. Maybe Drop Troops might not be a bad thing. There's a lot to choose from, I guess that I'm just one for fast paced and up-close and personal when it comes to my guard. I'd rather spend more points on my units than simply buying more units. Even though it's guard, I'd still like to apply the quality over quantity rule if I can. If I want quantity, then I'd use Conscript Platoons. As for the Russ, I'd be a fool if I didn't have at least the one tank for support. Hardened fighters might be good to give your rough riders a bit more power in close combat against targets with 3 weapon skill. It also can up the attacks of the sentinals which can be good if your enemy wants to tie them up in close combat. Also if you want to keep the snipers drop the sharpshooter discipline. It doesn't work with BS 4 troops like stormtroopers and hardened vets and it doesn't apply to sniper rifles so the only people who would be using it would be whatever infantry you can squeeze in there.
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Posted: Fri Nov 24, 2006 12:52 pm
Nuclearwinter DarkElf27 Xenos Mortium A quick question: Is it bad to try and have as many upgrades for your guardsmen as possible, especially with the addition of wargear to characters, to make them more powerful but at the expense of a very expensive guard army? Also, a side question in relation; do doctrines cost points per model to have them applied, or something to that degree? Some doctrines do, some don't. Only work for upgraded Guard if you're playing 1000pt+. Anything smaller, your upgrades are just a sink in your all-too-few points. giving guardsmen every upgrade possible? no won't work in anygame. it's just a waste of points to have guys worth almost the same as a space marine with T3 and a 4+armor save (assuming you give them carapace armor) even will as many upgrades as possible a guardsmen squad still won't pack a lot of fire power. Well, I don't mean literally every upgrade possible, but rather in normal squads to give them their heavy weapons team and their special weapn, and then give their sergeant the veteran upgrade and give him a bit of wargear or two. Also, is it better to have the heavy weapons squads or to have just a heavy weapons team in every squad?
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 12:30 am
Both my friend, both. When fielding the Imperial Guard, it pays off to have a lot of heavy weapons, both in the infantry squads and in the support squads.
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:08 am
This is pretty much everything I've got to Imperial guard minus a few officers/commisars and some other stuff. But I'm having a little trouble figuring out what to get next... More tanks? Another Chimera? More infantry + heavy weapons? Stormtroopers? a Hellhound? e.t.c. Come with suggestions please 3nodding (have a rough idea what I want but want to hear what you think)
1 Medic
1 Standard bearer
1 Autocannon
1 mortar
1 Missle launcher
1 Lasercanon
3 changeable heavy weapons (I can switch between Heavy bolters, autocannons and/or lascannons)
1 Flamethrower
1 meltagun
2 Grenade launchers
29 Guardsmen
10 Light infantry (With vox and sniper rifle)
10 Veterans (2 Plasma guns, 1 Grenade launcher, 1 missle launcher and a sergeant with stormbolter)
1 Leman russ
1 Chimera transport
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:03 am
Xenos Mortium Nuclearwinter DarkElf27 Xenos Mortium A quick question: Is it bad to try and have as many upgrades for your guardsmen as possible, especially with the addition of wargear to characters, to make them more powerful but at the expense of a very expensive guard army? Also, a side question in relation; do doctrines cost points per model to have them applied, or something to that degree? Some doctrines do, some don't. Only work for upgraded Guard if you're playing 1000pt+. Anything smaller, your upgrades are just a sink in your all-too-few points. giving guardsmen every upgrade possible? no won't work in anygame. it's just a waste of points to have guys worth almost the same as a space marine with T3 and a 4+armor save (assuming you give them carapace armor) even will as many upgrades as possible a guardsmen squad still won't pack a lot of fire power. Well, I don't mean literally every upgrade possible, but rather in normal squads to give them their heavy weapons team and their special weapn, and then give their sergeant the veteran upgrade and give him a bit of wargear or two. Also, is it better to have the heavy weapons squads or to have just a heavy weapons team in every squad? ahhh you ment like that! my mistake, well in that case then, no there's no real problem with that. I personally don't feel it worth it to get a vet sergent because it costs too much just to waste time rolling a single die for a bolt pistol. If they had better BS then it would be worth it. I like to have 2 types of infantry squads: Mobile, and fire support. the mobile squads have no heavy weaons, an assult weapon (such as a flamer) and frag grenades. they make for good soldiers to advance on the enemy and even support a counter charge. (21 attacks on a charge is not bad) Fire support squads have a grenade launcher and hvy bolter. Their job is to find cover, and provide cover fire for the mobile squads. I make sure to keep them withen lazgun range because you waste the fire power of the squad by only firing with the heavy bolter at 36". as for heavy weapon squads, I LOVE em and they are worth it for a few reasons. Firstly, you can get some serious fire power on the enemy from a great distance without having to waste lazgun shots, also ifa squad had a hvy bolter then they would have to constantly stay still to fire it. Now you can get the fire power of 3 hvy bolters that can stay still the whole game, and still let your other squads move and get cover fire.
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:16 pm
Xenos Mortium Well, I don't mean literally every upgrade possible, but rather in normal squads to give them their heavy weapons team and their special weapn, and then give their sergeant the veteran upgrade and give him a bit of wargear or two. Well I always give my squads a heavy weapon and a special weapon. Well except for armored fist squads since I tend to pillbox those so both is kinda a waste. However the sergeant is always bare bones. Mostly because I keep my officers right in the middle of my squads so the extra leadership doesn't come in handy. Then an extra S3 attack isn't worth much. Quote: Also, is it better to have the heavy weapons squads or to have just a heavy weapons team in every squad? I like every squad having a heavy weapon. Cause I like having 9 bodies protecting that heavy weapon instead of 3 protecting 3 heavy weapons. Course both have their place I just like the sureity of having 9 casualties before the heavy weapon is knocked out.
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Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:33 pm
Hmmm, and as per what I've done with my couple of soldiers, it seems like the Gaurd are best played as a defensive army, holing themselves up and waiting for the other army to come and charge into their firing range.
As I may imagine, a single S3 shot with no AP may not do much, but when someone tries to get close enough for close combat and they get 100 shots coming at them, then there's no chance in Hell they're surviving.
And as far as I know, there aren't many weapons that have longer than a 24" range, and so if you just pack some missile launchers in, then you can take care of those pesky sniper-esque squads pretty well, forcing the other squads to come within range of your thousand little soldiers. Further adding things like Basalisks to support your troops, or at least mortars, will push your enemy into your face to avoid taking the ordance damage.
Granted I've never gotten a chance to actually use this or even see it or hear it thought out, do you think that this is a working strategem?
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 6:20 am
Xenos Mortium Hmmm, and as per what I've done with my couple of soldiers, it seems like the Gaurd are best played as a defensive army, holing themselves up and waiting for the other army to come and charge into their firing range. As I may imagine, a single S3 shot with no AP may not do much, but when someone tries to get close enough for close combat and they get 100 shots coming at them, then there's no chance in Hell they're surviving. And as far as I know, there aren't many weapons that have longer than a 24" range, and so if you just pack some missile launchers in, then you can take care of those pesky sniper-esque squads pretty well, forcing the other squads to come within range of your thousand little soldiers. Further adding things like Basalisks to support your troops, or at least mortars, will push your enemy into your face to avoid taking the ordance damage. Granted I've never gotten a chance to actually use this or even see it or hear it thought out, do you think that this is a working strategem? I'd have to say no. The game is intended to be played with 6 turns (somtimes more per game) This strategy would work only if the game had unlimited time. Sitting back and doing nothing will never work, you need to get upclose and personel. When dealing with guard you have to get LOTS of shots off to do anything and sitting back with a few heavy bolters at BS 3 will no do anything. Even the 9 lazgun shots aren't somthing to be proud of. If you can manuver and use cover to your advantage properly, getting some squads up to rapid fire range is the best way to do things. A squad with 10 men and a flamer (for only 68 points) can dish out 18 laz gun attacks in additon to the flamer at close range! that's not bad for one squad. Imagine having 2 there! that's 36 attacks at close range! from 2 squads! that's getting the most out of them. now granted that they ARE only lazguns, and these number aren't somthing to boast about they are only one component in killing an enemy. Having some mobile fire power can be very useful in commiting the "killing blow" to an enemy. It is not enough to saturate an enemy with lasers, but lazguns combined with the fire power of say: a sentinel squad. well now you're in bussiness.
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:06 pm
to add on to my above post I have done some math to figure out a guardsmen's chance of actually killing another soldier. so far i have only done it for space marines but I plan on doing to for other races in a bit.
A guardsmen who has fired one shot has a 5.5% chance of killing a single space marine. therfore a squad of 10 (with one shot each) has a mere 55% chance of killing one marine. This is after armor saves. I'm thinking of making a chart that lists all the basic infantry of each army and giving the chance of a single laz shot (fired at BS 3) to kill the specific opponent. Sound like a good idea?
This is to show support in the fact that single guardsmen squads do not pack the punch to take care of targets on their own.
To further my point, here is the chance for a 8 men with lazguns, 1 with a plasma gun, and 1 heavy bolter, to kill a space marine. (ten men total)
At a range of 24'- 118% for 1 marine. OR 1 gaunteed kill with an 18% chance for a 2nd kill.
at a range of 12'- 204% for 1 marine. OR 2 gaunteed kills and a 4% of a third kill.
And just for kicks...
chance of the plasma gunner overheating his weapons and melting his hands:
at 24'- 11%
at 12' (assuming he fired twice) - 44% ouch it burns!
NOTE: all percentages are after the target has taken it's armor save.
AND finnaly, the major question of the day: is taking the special weapons worth it?
I have figured out that a 10 man squad with the plasma rifle and the hvy bolter added, increases it's firepower by:
63% when firing one shot each.
94% when withen rapid fire range.
(both assume that the heavy bolter has fired)
and only increases the squads cost by about 42%
this is all assuming that you are firing against marines in power armor. the values change when you change the target.
I don't feel like writing down the equations right now, but they're pretty simple. If you're just plain terrible at math then just ask me and I'll post it.
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:31 pm
I envy the time you have on your hands.
How about calculating how long it takes for a Space Marine Squad to make it's point cost against Guardsmen?
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:50 pm
DarkElf27 I envy the time you have on your hands. How about calculating how long it takes for a Space Marine Squad to make it's point cost against Guardsmen? A standard marine has 44% chance of killing a guardsman out in the open with 1 shot. His "kill rate" as I am calling it now. Is .44 guardsmen per turn. For a tactical squad of 10 their kill rate is multiplied by the number of shots fired giving them a guardsmen kill rate of 4.4 at long range and 8.8 at rapid rire range. To kill their point value of 150pts in guardsmen (25) they would need: 6 turns at 24' 3 turns at 12' this is assuming the marines don't take losses of their own and that the guard don't flee off the table. if you add a heavy bolter to the squad (as well as 1 more guardsmen) The number of turns is reduced to: 5 turns at 24' still 3 turns at 12' I guess it goes to show you that of you plan on having a game that is 6 turns long, that you had better equip you soldiers apropriatly for each enemy you face. Even mighty bolters will take some time chewing through all that flesh. However don't forget to keep in mind that most guarsmen squads don't come in groups of 25 and are usually equiped to make them cost more points. I also think that it has become increasingly obvious that when playing with a shooting based army, the secret to victory is to combine fire. Squads on their own simpley don't pack enough heat to tackle the enemy quickly.
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