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 Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:45 pm
dcikfyurt Nightlords: Can still take more than three fast attack (needs spawn, but it is possible). Explain? Also, what happens to Hit-And-Run? Stealth Adepts? Night Vision? Iron Warriors: You can still field an army which is predominantly heavy support.Yes, but has 1 less choice, no Basalisks, drops Obliterators (Take up heavy too now), lose Tank Hunter / Siege Specialists... Word Bearers: With daemons not taking up a FOC slot you can field as many as you want. You just need 2 CSM squads to make you army legal. You are also likely paying more for each Demon (25pt is the rumored Daemon Cost, I think). Plus, no more moving after summoning. Alpha Legion; The only legion that really suffers here as they lose their cultist option. And all infiltrate. Loss of Cultists is big, though, as lotsa Alpha Legion players now have useless Forgeworld Models. Worldeaters: You can still take 6 units of Khorne Berserkers, and the new icon system means that you can still have khornate units for your fast attack and heavy support options. Yes, but what about favored Demons? Favored Squads? Berzerker Glaives? Feel no Pain? Blood Frenzy? Death Guard, Emperors Children, Thousand Sons: See above. Thousand Son bodyless Automatons have less durability then sick Marines. EC now lose the best skill ever (-1 to ENEMY I) and get it replaced with a sub-par +1 I (Meaning no more Simo-Powerfists against Necrons, no more striking first when holding cover: no matter what, etc). Many Chaos players I know don't have a problem with the lack of legion specific rules as they can modify their army to fit. Yeah, your 3 Oblit Units, 2 Havocks, and 2 Basalisks? Yeah, you need to drop those Basalisks, and either drop your havocks or two Obliterator squads. Don't worry, you can still use all you models, including the rule-less Basalisk. We promised it. Plus the whole "Six-Man Slaneeshi squads (Favored) with 2 weapons is scrapped, with no matter what at least one weapon needed to be dropped (only a second heavy/special weapon in 10+ big squads). To blandly turn around and say that your army is ruined and that you're going to sell it is infantile. Possessed are random skills, ranging from useful to none at all. All Demon Princes are monstrous creatures now. All character from unique weapons and champions is gone (Do you REALLY think they're going to keep the option to give your unit Champion Fire / Venom / Combat Drugs / etc?). It isn't ruined, just loses a shitload of flavor. I refer back to HBMC's post on unique-ness. Quote: I don't like the new rumoured new codex, but I'm still going to use my Chaos army. But then, I'm a Black Legion player. Who suffers none of the reprucussions, except maybe Undivideds removal (Big rumor that Mark of Undivided is removed). Though yeah, none of us like it. Shame they're releasing such damned good models afterwards, too. Ah well, Chaos players goes down, yet somehow the number of people owning Chaos Models goes up. Wierd, no?
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:22 pm
King Kento Firstly, Im hoping that the remark about selling ones army and being infantile was not directed at me. As Ive been saying the opposite, hell read my reply to Lion El Jonson. Im bothered by all these people saying theyre selling their armies.
Concerning still being playable. Thats a given, a grot army is still playable, that doesnt mean its desireable. For example, my favorite legion rules, the Night Lords. Yes I can focus on fast attack, but it is not the same as one, powerful raptors, stealth abilities, and night vision.
As you agreed, alpha legion took a hit, Word beareres seem doable still from what I can tell. The problem with having marked units "for your fast attack and heavy support options" is that some armies arent supposed to have them, such as the death gaurd and fast attack. Regardless of ease of use, being over powered, underpowered, whatever, these rules do not represent the story as well as the previouse ones, and seem more in line with representing spikey marines, not millenia old veterans from the imperiums most prosperous age. No, the comment was not directed at you, but was to try to humiliate those who are saying that the codex is ruined. I have issues with the codex myself; but my problems with it are due to what they haven't changed. As for the new codex not fitting with the background from the last codex is due to a general de-powering of the game as a whole (in line with the Dark Angels/Blood Angels Codices). You can't very well have 10000 year old Super Space marines walking around in a low powered version of the game. So the new codex is supposed to reflect the fact that most of the original heresy chaos marines have been killed in battle ETC and most of the survivors are either Daemon Princes, Chaos Lords, etc. Your basic Chaos Marine is now recruited (in the same manners as an Imperial Space Marine) or is a renegade from one of the existing Chapters, or is a member of a Renegade Chapter. It iis cool that they have differentiated between the two, although their would still be some Chaos marines, who weren't involved in the hersey that have still lived for longer than an Imperial Marine. I Don't feel that they are represented well enough (perhaps a modification to the Chosen entry to allow different Vet skills other than infiltrate). And for those of you out there who think that the codex is ruined. Just think what would have happened is all the dyed-in-the-wool Space marine players had had their say!
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:37 pm
Drachyench_The_Eternal dcikfyurt Nightlords: Can still take more than three fast attack (needs spawn, but it is possible). Explain? Also, what happens to Hit-And-Run? Stealth Adepts? Night Vision? Iron Warriors: You can still field an army which is predominantly heavy support.Yes, but has 1 less choice, no Basalisks, drops Obliterators (Take up heavy too now), lose Tank Hunter / Siege Specialists... Word Bearers: With daemons not taking up a FOC slot you can field as many as you want. You just need 2 CSM squads to make you army legal. You are also likely paying more for each Demon (25pt is the rumored Daemon Cost, I think). Plus, no more moving after summoning. Alpha Legion; The only legion that really suffers here as they lose their cultist option. And all infiltrate. Loss of Cultists is big, though, as lotsa Alpha Legion players now have useless Forgeworld Models. Worldeaters: You can still take 6 units of Khorne Berserkers, and the new icon system means that you can still have khornate units for your fast attack and heavy support options. Yes, but what about favored Demons? Favored Squads? Berzerker Glaives? Feel no Pain? Blood Frenzy? Death Guard, Emperors Children, Thousand Sons: See above. Thousand Son bodyless Automatons have less durability then sick Marines. EC now lose the best skill ever (-1 to ENEMY I) and get it replaced with a sub-par +1 I (Meaning no more Simo-Powerfists against Necrons, no more striking first when holding cover: no matter what, etc). Many Chaos players I know don't have a problem with the lack of legion specific rules as they can modify their army to fit. Yeah, your 3 Oblit Units, 2 Havocks, and 2 Basalisks? Yeah, you need to drop those Basalisks, and either drop your havocks or two Obliterator squads. Don't worry, you can still use all you models, including the rule-less Basalisk. We promised it. Plus the whole "Six-Man Slaneeshi squads (Favored) with 2 weapons is scrapped, with no matter what at least one weapon needed to be dropped (only a second heavy/special weapon in 10+ big squads). To blandly turn around and say that your army is ruined and that you're going to sell it is infantile. Possessed are random skills, ranging from useful to none at all. All Demon Princes are monstrous creatures now. All character from unique weapons and champions is gone (Do you REALLY think they're going to keep the option to give your unit Champion Fire / Venom / Combat Drugs / etc?). It isn't ruined, just loses a shitload of flavor. I refer back to HBMC's post on unique-ness. Quote: I don't like the new rumoured new codex, but I'm still going to use my Chaos army. But then, I'm a Black Legion player. Who suffers none of the reprucussions, except maybe Undivideds removal (Big rumor that Mark of Undivided is removed). Though yeah, none of us like it. Shame they're releasing such damned good models afterwards, too. Ah well, Chaos players goes down, yet somehow the number of people owning Chaos Models goes up. Wierd, no? Firstly, all the possessed skills are USEFUL, and with the loss of daemonic flight I will be hoping to get fleet or scout. Secondly, Warhammer players, like myself, have to roll their spells for their mages each battle, and we don't complain. Thirdly, they are intending on reducing the character upgrades for all armies, just look at the new Dark Angels & Blood Angels codices, they have fewer upgrades than Chaos are going to have. Fourth, the current rumours for the cost of daemons is 13pts. Fifthly, Black Legion still get a few repercussions, like having to field ten men in a unit before we get access to a heavy weapon or second special weapon. Sixthly, Undivided is not being removed, it is being renamed to Chaos Glory, or something similar. Rather than complaining about the changes, have a look at the tactical problems Chaos players have in the current codex, you'll notice they haven't been addressed (no fast vehicles, limited technology etc).
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Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:02 pm
dcikfyurt Firstly, all the possessed skills are USEFUL, and with the loss of daemonic flight I will be hoping to get fleet or scout. Note what you said there. You're banking on rolling something before the game begins just so your squad can perform its role. It'd be like having to roll a D6 before each game to determine your tanks weapons. Facing a Tank Company, roll the D6... 3? I'm sorry, that's a Heavy-Bolter Tank meant for anti-Infantry. Secondly, Warhammer players, like myself, have to roll their spells for their mages each battle, and we don't complain.Guess what? I play warhammer too. Orcs and Skaven, buddy. We don't complain because all spells have their use, and you can always swap it for 1 if worse comes to worse. Thirdly, they are intending on reducing the character upgrades for all armies, just look at the new Dark Angels & Blood Angels codices, they have fewer upgrades than Chaos are going to have.Like I said, from 56+ options before marks to less then a dozen most likely. Also add in what HBMC said... Fourth, the current rumours for the cost of daemons is 13pts.And WS/S4, T3, I4, 5+ Invuln, correct? Congrads, you got a Daemonette without Warpscream, Rending, or the nifty move after summoning. You get to save 2pts! Fifthly, Black Legion still get a few repercussions, like having to field ten men in a unit before we get access to a heavy weapon or second special weapon. Which makes sense for a CHAOTIC army... how? With 10,000 years backing them, you'd think they'd have enough heavy weapons to kit 5-9 man squads with 2 weapons (Or a 5 man squad a Heavy Bolter). Sixthly, Undivided is not being removed, it is being renamed to Chaos Glory, or something similar. And is likely going to be a base equip, and have no benifits (There only to say they're undivided). Add in that apparently you need to buy a 25pt Icon to get the Re-roll for Ld (At least, that's what was suggested at Baltimore's GD), and that makes the Undivided just Ld9 Space Marines. Rather than complaining about the changes, have a look at the tactical problems Chaos players have in the current codex, you'll notice they haven't been addressed (no fast vehicles, limited technology etc).No fast Vehicles, massive loss of Veteran skills, loss of Demon-Fodder (Nurglings are no longer wonderful screens), etc. Plus the fact that for 26pts (Basic Marines are 16 in the new Codex to get the new weapons, unless they're increasing Squad Upgrade costs, according to Baltimore's GD), you get a Plague Marine that is more durable then 4 of any other Marines against Guardsmen (And 3 when compared to SM's / Necrons), what do you think someone is going to take for their main infantry? Main army to be played is going to be Nurgle, that much is obvious. Yeah, I've been in the hobby for 6 and a half years. I know some of my s**t for 40K.
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:23 am
dcikfyurt King Kento Firstly, Im hoping that the remark about selling ones army and being infantile was not directed at me. As Ive been saying the opposite, hell read my reply to Lion El Jonson. Im bothered by all these people saying theyre selling their armies.
Concerning still being playable. Thats a given, a grot army is still playable, that doesnt mean its desireable. For example, my favorite legion rules, the Night Lords. Yes I can focus on fast attack, but it is not the same as one, powerful raptors, stealth abilities, and night vision.
As you agreed, alpha legion took a hit, Word beareres seem doable still from what I can tell. The problem with having marked units "for your fast attack and heavy support options" is that some armies arent supposed to have them, such as the death gaurd and fast attack. Regardless of ease of use, being over powered, underpowered, whatever, these rules do not represent the story as well as the previouse ones, and seem more in line with representing spikey marines, not millenia old veterans from the imperiums most prosperous age. No, the comment was not directed at you, but was to try to humiliate those who are saying that the codex is ruined. I have issues with the codex myself; but my problems with it are due to what they haven't changed. As for the new codex not fitting with the background from the last codex is due to a general de-powering of the game as a whole (in line with the Dark Angels/Blood Angels Codices). You can't very well have 10000 year old Super Space marines walking around in a low powered version of the game. So the new codex is supposed to reflect the fact that most of the original heresy chaos marines have been killed in battle ETC and most of the survivors are either Daemon Princes, Chaos Lords, etc. Your basic Chaos Marine is now recruited (in the same manners as an Imperial Space Marine) or is a renegade from one of the existing Chapters, or is a member of a Renegade Chapter. It iis cool that they have differentiated between the two, although their would still be some Chaos marines, who weren't involved in the hersey that have still lived for longer than an Imperial Marine. I Don't feel that they are represented well enough (perhaps a modification to the Chosen entry to allow different Vet skills other than infiltrate). And for those of you out there who think that the codex is ruined. Just think what would have happened is all the dyed-in-the-wool Space marine players had had their say!
Theres a very simple solution to units of one army being stronger than others tha GW has used before. Point costs. High point costs mean smaller armies, which makes sense byt the whole less horus heresy era marines. Much the same as a deathwing army is made up of powerful troops, but is maybe three sqauds big. Also theres no reason they still wouldnt have their super marines even now, increased life spans, chaotic blessings, and the former Emperor's Children apothecary, [[Fabius Bile]].
It would seem GW wants to turn 40k into a larger model scale version of epic, seeing as codex:apocalypse is coming up. Also what do you mean if marine players got their way?
Also, you keep bringing this up with Drachyench (spelling?) Warhammer fantasy. Im not (and I doubt he is either) concerned with fantasy rules. If I wanted randomly ruled for powers Id take minor psychic powers or play fantasy. They are seperate games despite their beginnings, so stick to more relevant things like the other codexes you keep bringing up such as the dark angels and blood angels, even though I have an argument for that as well, but that can wait for the next response.
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 2:56 am
Kento, you mean Fabius Bile, who was a great apothecary but became more of a bumbling nutsack throughout the years. His mutations are unstable and well, he has a ***** smile that we find most unsettling.
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:07 am
Lt. Brookman Kento, you mean Fabius Bile, who was a great apothecary but became more of a bumbling nutsack throughout the years. His mutations are unstable and well, he has a ***** smile that we find most unsettling.
I think Bile was pretty good in the old Codex, just going off his weapons that didn't allow much in the way of saves.
-Mykal
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:29 am
True, but his real thing was supposed to be the boosting or ******** of some units into either powerful idiots or drooling idiots. It's not the way it used to be sad
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 3:53 am
Lt. Brookman True, but his real thing was supposed to be the boosting or ******** of some units into either powerful idiots or drooling idiots. It's not the way it used to be sad
I reckon though that if you did end up with s**t units, it's no big deal, you've still got Bile.
-Mykal
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:00 am
Drachyench_The_Eternal Yeah, I've been in the hobby for 6 and a half years. I know some of my s**t for 40K. Yeah, urinating contest time, I've been playing since the Rogue Trader days, my first chaos army was built using the Slaves to Darkness book. I even own one of the original Noise Marines (with guitar and Mohawk). I know my Chaos 40K as well, I've just got differing opinions to you. You may think that you are the absolute authority on chaos, but not even the rules devs at GW are. As it is, as much as I dislike the rumoured new codex, It is far better than the current one which is broken, unbalanced and abusable (I know, I abuse it). The rumoured codex prevents over-powering units which is why every chaos player not from GW Southampton (UK) seems to hate it. They are losing their broken unbalanced armies in favour of a more balanced army and most don't like it. For me the new codex is a step forward, not back, and actually gives me more tactical flexibility and when the Imperial Marines get their redux we start to see Chaos armies actually doing better in tournaments than now.
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Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 7:37 am
dcikfyurt Drachyench_The_Eternal Yeah, I've been in the hobby for 6 and a half years. I know some of my s**t for 40K. Yeah, urinating contest time, I've been playing since the Rogue Trader days, my first chaos army was built using the Slaves to Darkness book. I even own one of the original Noise Marines (with guitar and Mohawk). I know my Chaos 40K as well, I've just got differing opinions to you. You may think that you are the absolute authority on chaos, but not even the rules devs at GW are. Some of my s**t. Some. I ain't the master. Hell, I got a Cousin who's been in 40K for about 7 years longer then me. And I ain't the ultimate authority on Chaos. That's GW (As a whole), who if they wanted could say all of Chaos goes up by three in all stats and drops to 5 points, or say every model adds 11 to their opponnents armor save. Quote: As it is, as much as I dislike the rumoured new codex, It is far better than the current one which is broken, Which brings up the usual GW way of solving problems. If broken, either remove or nerf to high heaven. Quote: unbalanced and abusable (I know, I abuse it). It is unbalanced... in certain Legions. Khorne is not unbalanced, as you're usually paying around 25pts a Berzerker. For a hint, that's as much as a basic SM with a missile launcher. Who'd win given that the Marine can park his arse on the Table edge and be at least 35" away from the Berzerker on turn one? The only "Unbalanced" things don't really show up until the three magic words for Chaos Players happen: "No Points Limit". Quote: The rumoured codex prevents over-powering units which is why every chaos player not from GW Southampton (UK) seems to hate it. And not the butchering of Fluff? Night Lords see as well as Plague Marines in the Dark. A Greater Demon of Khorne can be in an Emperors Children army, and has no difference with a Great Unclean One. Chosen (Who ARE at least millenia old) have about as much skill as a Basic Marine Veteran. Plus the whole "All your models are still usable", though the destruction of Speeded Lords, Basalisks, Squad-Champions with Talons / Lightning Claws, etc. Quote: They are losing their broken unbalanced armies in favour of a more balanced army and most don't like it. It's going over to the kiddies. GW is trying to attract more and more younger players with the simpler rules, and it's working, so it ain't going to stop anytime soon. Quote: For me the new codex is a step forward, not back, and actually gives me more tactical flexibility Imperial Marines have more Infiltrating units, more with the option to deepstrike, more customability (Even with the Wargear limit Drawback trait, the average SM sergeant will have more Wargear options then the Chaos Lord), you cannot use your Raptors to Hit-And-Run to soften the enemy for your footsloggers behind to charge, etc. Hell, three different CHAPTERS of Space Marines will have more special rules between them then Chaos will likely have. Quote: and when the Imperial Marines get their redux we start to see Chaos armies actually doing better in tournaments than now. Great, just what I need for my SM's, needing to buy 2 more tactical squad boxes just so all my current models can remain in use. (I field 8 man squads whilst using cleanse and purify. Either I drop 2 men and a special weapon trooper, or I need to buy 2 more men for each squad.) And better? You talked about how it makes Chaos more balanced, and less powerful, and are now saying that it will make Chaos win MORE games? Explain how they get LESS powerful, but will win MORE games against something like, say, a 'Nid Zilla army, or the Eldar Harlequin Flying Circus?
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Posted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:11 pm
Lt. Brookman Kento, you mean Fabius Bile, who was a great apothecary but became more of a bumbling nutsack throughout the years. His mutations are unstable and well, he has a ***** smile that we find most unsettling.
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Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:48 am
hi im thinking o getting a chaos army i used to get orks but time for a change but i dont know what to have in my army im gonna get a blood thirster and 2 squads of marines but what else is good in a chaos army
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Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:50 am
captain1 hi im thinking o getting a chaos army i used to get orks but time for a change but i dont know what to have in my army im gonna get a blood thirster and 2 squads of marines but what else is good in a chaos army
Start in December and then make up your mind.
-Mykal
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Posted: Fri Jul 27, 2007 6:00 am
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