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Or according to God''s will.

You''re sorta takin'' this out of context, and even if you weren''t, it still doesn''t apply to the Catholic Church: Everything (at least from what I''ve seen) is open for discussion. I think you''re misinterpreting what papal infallability really is. Some good info: http://lifeteen.com/default.aspx?PageID=APARTICLE&__DocumentId=777

Can you elaborate? "You're sorta" isn't really specific. Can you explain how I am incorrect?

Ebony_Skies: Scripture seems fairly clear; before Christ died, God had a place called Abraham's Bosom that was protected from hell. No suffering. After Jesus made the sacrifice and opened the doors to heaven, He went and collected those that were covered in OT times through faith. No suffering though. God's salvation exempts us from His wrath, otherwise our suffering can pay for our sins and Jesus is unnecessary.

Can you elaborate? "You're sorta" isn't really specific. Can you explain how I am incorrect?

Ebony_Skies: Scripture seems fairly clear; before Christ died, God had a place called Abraham's Bosom that was protected from hell. No suffering. After Jesus made the sacrifice and opened the doors to heaven, He went and collected those that were covered in OT times through faith. No suffering though. God's salvation exempts us from His wrath, otherwise our suffering can pay for our sins and Jesus is unnecessary.

Actually, what i think that quote means is that people can't take the Bible and give the words a privet meaning. There is one truth and no one can change that, even if they think it means something else.

These verses are also used by Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists in promoting their "Soul Sleep" Doctrine which states that everyone is unconsious and unaware between death and the Resurrection/Final Judgement. Do you adhere to this doctrine? Regardless, you are taking Ecclesiastes' verses totally out of their context. I will refute it with my outside sources...

Many of the verses used in support of the whole "the dead no nothing" argument come from totally misunderstood quotations of the Old Testament Scripture Ecclesiastes (Qoheleth) which is Wisdom Literature, written by a Man in Torments looking at the world through a dreary tortured atheistic nilhistic perspective "All is meaningless, all is meaningless" Ecclesiastes says over and over, which encompasses the whole dreary context of the Scripture. He is showing how he sees the world through man's view apart from God.

All verses in the Old Testament quoted in support of Soul Sleep appear to be refering to the physical state of the physical dead body becoming inanimate itself and not the Spirit (Ruach) of the person which leaves the body at death.

The major theme of Ecclesiastes is "all is vanity" (1:2). This term or its equivalent occurs 27 times in the book. The theme of the book is not the state of the dead as the Seventh Day Adventists (SDA) would have one believe. In fact the author seems to be unconcerned with the state of the dead. His concern seems to be to show that a life apart from God is vain or worthless.

ECCLESIASTES 3:19-20 Man's fate is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath, man has no advantage over the animal. Everything is meaningless. All go to the same place; all come from dust and to dust all return.

The key to understanding Ecclesiastes is the phrase "under the sun" which occurs 29 times in the book. This important phrase means as things appear from an earthly perspective. The author, for the most part, does not concern himself with the realities of the afterlife. His book is not meant to be a dogmatic statement on the state of the dead. The author tells us as much when he writes, "Who knows if the life-breath of the children of men goes upward..." (3:21).

This book is a commentary on the pointlessness of our physical existence apart from God. Ecclesiastes must be understood in the context of the rest of the Bible. The rest of the Bible plainly teaches that the dead are conscious (see I Sam. 28:12-20; Is. 14:9ff.; Lk. 16:19-31, 20:38, 23:40-43; Rom. 14:9; II Cor. 5:6-9; Phil. 1:22-25; I Thes. 5:10; Heb. 12:1; I Pt. 3:18-19, 4:6; Rev. 6:9-10). The Bible also plainly teaches that man's final destiny is either eternal life with God or eternal life separated from Him (see Mt. 25:31-46; Mk. 3:28-29; Lk. 12:10; Jn. 3:14-18; II Thes. 1:9; Rev. 20:10, 22:12-15). With that in mind let's look at the verse in question: "For the living know that they are to die, but the dead no longer know anything. There is no further recompense for them, because all memory of them is lost" (Eccl. 9:5).

The Body [soma] does "Die" and knows nothing. [Eccl 9:5]

In a sense, a person's body is "sleeping" while their soul is in Paradise or Hades. This body is then "awoken" and transformed into the eternal body a person will possess for eternity.

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident I say and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.

The word "Satan" means "Adversary" as in "Adversity". In the context of this verse, Peter was being an Adversary to Christ. "Get thee behind me, adversary" would be a more accurate translation. He didn''t mean that Peter was the Devil. "The Devil; Beelzebub" is also an Adversary ("Satan") and is a personified entity. The Archon of this World.


Purely subjective, it can easily be argued that the possessive object was Peter to whom he was directly speaking to. Remember, he also gave Peter the power to bind and loose on earth that which is in Heaven. Also notice that Peter, James, and John were Prophets of God who had much authority in the Early Christian Church. In that sense, Peter was a Rock of God''s Prophecy, and he wrote Scripture himself inspired by God.


I agree. Christ is the beginning and end of our Faith. The cornerstone.