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 Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:05 pm
FlashbackJon Mini-quoting again… King Kento
Im going to cover youre little post first so i dont forget it. Model freedom is not a benefit of generic demon lists. There was no reason you couldnt do that anyways. Ive seen some skaven thingies in robes used as plague demons very effectively. Skaven rat bases for nurglings. And of course there're the comedy armies. As long as you can make distinctions and things are represented, you have model freedom, you dont need a rule change to make models you like.No I can’t. I can’t field horrors because the models are pretty, and then say they represent bloodletters because the horrors rules suck a** - that's very specifically against WYSIWYG. In the coming Codex, I can field whatever models I want without being “gimped” by it. King Kento
Back to he original post of yours. Yes it does have bearing. We're not looking at stand alone quality, we're looking at these rules compared to their old ones. thats the point. This isnt a new army being added to the game, this is replacing a list.I just don’t agree with this, and it’s actually crux of my belief. The Codexes do not exist concurrently and should not be compared to one another, but rather to the remainder of the active army lists. By comparing one abstract representation of background to another abstract representation of the same background, you’re based your opinions on change alone, instead of judging the Codex on its own merits and flaws alone. King Kento No one came here for you to try and ruin their credibility and attack their ability to form an opinion. Its a 40k thread, and we come here to discuss that. Further Im on you about this, because you arent making distinctions, I do not like the rumored rules and hope that theyre not the ones thatll actually happen. I have however not opposed every codex and every change in 40k, or change as a whole anyways, but Im labeled as some "naysayer" because you like the changes. That’s a very fair point. I’m not attacking anyone – or at least that’s not my intent – I just call them as I see them. I don’t believe comparing a new Codex to its previous version is a valid comparison when it comes to actually playing the game, and thusly shouldn’t be used to justify resistance to change. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the the only valid judgements that can be made against a Codex are made objectively based on the game impact of the book, without being biased by its previous incarnations. Based on this (that is, the idea that we don’t see eye-to-eye on the basis of the very comparison), I just don’t see how we can even advance beyond this point – which is why I avoided it in the first place. ...I wrote individual responses to each following point, but I didn't feel I could justify it after those last few statements. I'm making a concerted effort to be less bull-headed. rofl
On the note of attacking or not attacking people. Whether you meant to be rude or not, think of it this way. Youre telling people that their opinions arent there own and theyre just making them up to justify some fear of change. Right there, I know I get annoyed with anyone who tells me Im scared of something, or further claims to know why Im doing something when Ive made it very clear. Further you used words such as "baseless", and even said "ruse" like this was some conspiracy.
So lets discuss the changes if nothing else. Though if after all that you dont feel like retyping (lots of text) thats understandeable.
Almost forgot, the issue of model representation, you play with some nitpicky little shits then. Any hobby shop Ive been to, the players only care as long as its identifiable and distinguishable, especially in the case of chaos.
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Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 9:10 pm
A.R.G.U.S Mykal King Kento A.R.G.U.S Mykal King Kento A.R.G.U.S Mykal
The Chaos Raptors lost hit and run, but it'll probably turn up somewhere else to compensate. Keep in mind these guys will likely also have the bolder/ccw/pistol for the extra attack, so the might not need a hit and run if you're rolling an extra 5 or 6 dice a turn.
Also, to be pinickity, the proposed changes say nothing about Death Guard being on bikes, only Nurgle Marines on bikes. Granted it does include the Death Guard, but seeing as this is moreso about the Corsairs and other outer-rim sort of Marines, what's so say a band of White Scars didn't fall prey to Nurgle?
The Terminators, I feel, will make them more of a Tactical choice, and not so much a standing battery of heavy or assault weapons. But we'll have to see how that pans out, I suppose.
Also, I'm not a fan of the art. It's too yellow and the Terminator Armour looks too 1998.
-Mykal
I know the rumored changes dont, thats why i made sure not to say death gaurd. Even in a nurgle point of view though i dont see it happening. And I see White Scars falling to Slaanesh honestly. As for being about the corsairs, as much as id like that, the cover art at least says otherwise. I went more into the nurgle bikers thing in the post to Jon as well. That didnt get a bolded first word, i think it was the paragraph before the Raptors one. As a nurgle fan, im curiouse of your opinions on it.
Agreed on termies. The only rumored changes I saw were them being a seperate entry, and one less heavy weapon i think.
I see where you're coming from about the Raptor's fluff compared the the proposed new Raptor's rules. (I read all your post, as well. That was quite an arseload of words.) The thing is, it could still be considered fluffy if you look at it from another perspective.
Old Codex: They fly in, do some damage, then fly out, ready for the next ones. New Codex: They fly in, destroy whoever with their large number of attacks.
Granted it could leave them out in the open, but it'll make the users of those units learn to not just jump, hit, jump. (Similar to that beardy Tau Battlesuit tactic we hear so much about.) It'll make them be used as more of a luring and herding unit, where the opponent keeps his men away because he could be within 18 inches of getting his squad diced. Think how Dark Eldar Mandrakes can be used effectively, and I'm working along those lines.
How do I feel about Nurgle? I feel that it's rather unfluffy. However, there are instances where there are also unfluffy bastardisations of other legions. After a search, I can't find my sodding Codex, so I might be wrong on these, seeing as I've never really focussed on the following legions:
Alpha Legion - Cultists, not really fans of daemons. I'm assuming it would be possible to have some infiltrating men and then drop some Daemon Bombs all around the enemy and rend them apart.
Word Bearers - They allow for 9 Troops slots, I think, so how many heavy bolters is that? 18? How many Plasma guns? Melta Guns? Those slots are meant to be reserved for Daemons, as per the fluff, but if you wanted you could easily go overboard on your men. Have the minimum number of men and the biggest number of heavy bolters, then sit back and roll your dice.
Iron Warriors - I think we all know how this turns out.
I have nothing wrong with the option being there, because the footslogging infantry and the lack of vehicles is primarily a teaching of Mortarion, and it's more to do with the things that he encountered before he was saved by the Emperor. The teachings of Father Nurgle are just to spread disease, contagion and death. I'm sure that if there was a Marine who had recently turned, who was devoted to both Nurgle and his bike, I'm sure he'd use one to work the other.
The same could be said of Tzeentch. The only Rubric Marines are those of the Thousand Sons, so any loyalist Librarian and his possé of Marines could be dedicated to Tzeentch and ride bikes, seeing as they're not soulless shells. (Although against my arguement, that could be represented by a converted Librarian with a mark of Tzeentch heading up a legion of undivided, as you can do that in the new one.)
I know that it's not all perfect though, seeing as a Khornate leader for a Slaanesi army is very unfluffy, but anyone who knows/likes Chaos won't bastardise the fluff that much.
And then, if in any doubt, then this should help any unbelievers. They've done it before, they'll probably do it again.
Edit: Sorry, this is quite an arseload of type as well. But mine's smaller and yellow, so you might want to highlight it. XD
-Mykal
On the raptors, it can still work, but it doesnt have that dexteric feal of hit and run. So its soemthing Id like to see stay.
Alpha Legion - you got them dead on, infact the codex says ONLY cultists may carry the icons. And they cant have demon lords or whatever.
Word Bearers - I think that could be fixed very easily. All theyd need is a rule saying that demons didnt take up a force organization slot and they have to take at least 2 units like Alaitoc armies had to with rangers.
Iron Warriors - 3nodding I can see that, I guess more than the bikes, its just seeing them losing the uniqueness of having true grit unlike the others. But it works with the whole vet feel. I guess its more feel no pain being added to T5 marines. If this does happen, its possible that therell be some downside, but it hasnt been mentioned in the rumors. If they wanted to make them stronger, Id like to see them be allowed to hold heavy weapons (same goes for rubric marines).
As for Tzeentch, agreed. And I always thought it annoying that you cant represent new converts to tzeentch, only the thousand sons.
I think it'd be very good if they allow you to use allies - like Marines get Witch Hunters and Darmonhunters (and though process, Imperial Guard units also), so that you can have a largely Chaos army, and then have some Normal guardmen (ableit evil and twisted). That would be a good way to represdent the newer armies.
Something similar to the LatD army list, but without the need for "Big Mutants". That sounded far too 90s. Y'know? Where "Toxic sludge" was normally the big bad thing in cartoons.
-Mykal
I saw the point of big mutants, and wouldnt mind them staying, but I do agree the "big mutant" thing does follow with a lot of cartoons and things of the 90's with the quasi ecosensitive portrayel of toxic waste being everywhere. Though they were also a bit counterproductive because now you have kids thinking toxic goo or natural disasters turn you into a super being, not a corpse.
By the way while I have your attention, is the "tau on chaos" thread within the forum rules?
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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:21 am
King Kento I loved the LatD list for that reason. I dont know if allies are necessary to represent new traitor chapters, but the rumors of their legalizing the list sounds awesome (not that Ive ran into anyone who was against its use anyways).
I saw the point of big mutants, and wouldnt mind them staying, but I do agree the "big mutant" thing does follow with a lot of cartoons and things of the 90's with the quasi ecosensitive portrayel of toxic waste being everywhere. Though they were also a bit counterproductive because now you have kids thinking toxic goo or natural disasters turn you into a super being, not a corpse.
By the way while I have your attention, is the "tau on chaos" thread within the forum rules?
Xenos lapped it up.
I feel that the LatD list was very productive, but there should be similar options in a modern rogue Chaos army list anyway, considering that they're essentially losing Demons due to them being away from the Eye.
-Mykal
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Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:29 am
I for one loved the idea of LatD, But rumours say its getting the chop as well as some saying they are getting their own sub codex after Codex: Daemons. If not once we get Chaos Space marine and Daemons codex we can represent it using IG allies but it probally means cutting out the Daemons or one of the codexs stare
Being able to use allies like that just represents chaos better, at the moment im planning to use LatD with the new codex and im going to build a strong CSM force for campaigns and such where im not allowed to.
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Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:40 am
My comment on another forum site. Okay, after the bout of hysterics I went into after reading the rumoured new Codex:CSM I have to say that although they have made some bad choices, They have made some good ones as well. Those being: 1. Cult Marines as troops choices. This is fantastic. I can now use my Khorne Berserker models to pad out my FOC. 2. Obliterators using Plasma Cannons. Time to repay all those loyalist players who hosed my terminators down with 4 plasma cannon Devi squads. 3. Toning down the Daemon Prince. As much as I'm willing to admit that a Daemon Prince should be a close combat monster, they shouldn't be an army in their own right. 4. Raptors no longer being 0-1. This makes sense as Assault marines were never 0-1. However, I think there are some changes that have been over-looked, or just plain fouled up. Codex:Eldar took the units that were never fielded due to them being over-pointed or just useless, and made them more powerful. Codex:CSM didn't really need this, what it need were additional units to fill certain gaps in. I think the Vindicator is a bad idea, and that Razorbacks would have been a better choice. (Who wouldn't want an extra heavy weapon in their Havoc Squad.) Likewise, a fast moving vehicle, possibly some daemonically possessed Landspeeder variant, would have been helpful for certain missions. All said, however, compared to the damage they could have done, I think we are looking at the lesser of two evils here. As for the new generic daemons, I think that if they are going to release Codex: Daemons, then they should have left Daemons out of the CSM list altogether, and included the generic daemons in Codex: Daemons, and allowed allying like in WFB. At least that way, people could take their rat daemons or tree daemons and still take God specific daemons if they chose to. Putting Generic Daemons in the new CSM list just seems to me like a platitude to keep players with daemon heavy armies happy.
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Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:03 pm
Well, let's just say their changes - wether better or worse reguardless - have ruined my demon prince conversion.
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Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:50 pm
on the Imperium tech forum there was a discussion about how the Imperium would never upgrade there tech based on stolen Tau designs out of religion...but Chaos has no such stigmas...is there any reason that Chaos forces would not try and use stolen xeno tech to there advantage?
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Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 10:00 pm
OrionStark on the Imperium tech forum there was a discussion about how the Imperium would never upgrade there tech based on stolen Tau designs out of religion...but Chaos has no such stigmas...is there any reason that Chaos forces would not try and use stolen xeno tech to there advantage?
I believe they might have in certain stories. But ultimately, does chaos need tau pulse rifles? I dont know if theyd be able to set up shop to produce stuff, just because they were able to grab some.
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:28 am
King Kento OrionStark on the Imperium tech forum there was a discussion about how the Imperium would never upgrade there tech based on stolen Tau designs out of religion...but Chaos has no such stigmas...is there any reason that Chaos forces would not try and use stolen xeno tech to there advantage?
I believe they might have in certain stories. But ultimately, does chaos need tau pulse rifles? I dont know if theyd be able to set up shop to produce stuff, just because they were able to grab some.To expand on the above, the only person in a chaos army who CANNOT take a demon weapon is, ironically, a demon prince. Also, if the codex is similar to the old one, stuff like a blast master or plague sword are "gifts of the gods" and not demon weapons at all - So the question remains on why you'd WANT xenotech, when you've got a weapon designed by a demi-God.
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:06 am
dcikfyurt 2. Obliterators using Plasma Cannons. Time to repay all those loyalist players who hosed my terminators down with 4 plasma cannon Devi squads. At least they're on two-wound models. Though it sucks that, supposedly, they're removing solid slug weapons (Like the Heavy Bolter). Quote: 3. Toning down the Daemon Prince. As much as I'm willing to admit that a Daemon Prince should be a close combat monster, they shouldn't be an army in their own right. Storywise, yes. Now, also, I believe an Eldar Wraithlord will win most of the time in a battle between the two. Quote: 4. Raptors no longer being 0-1. This makes sense as Assault marines were never 0-1. They weren't multi-millenia old Veterans who could pull special manuevers like hit-and-run, either. If I wanted multiple fast squads to get stuck in, I'd take winged possessed (S5 and invulns, anyone?). Quote: I think the Vindicator is a bad idea, Yes. 24" S10 weapon, where your Tank Hunting Lascannons already filled the role. Quote: and that Razorbacks would have been a better choice. (Who wouldn't want an extra heavy weapon in their Havoc Squad.) Yes, but then it'd be only 2 heavy weapons and then the tanks (Didn't you hear? Chaos is going to be following much of the loyalist weapon restrictions based on squad size). Quote: Likewise, a fast moving vehicle, possibly some daemonically possessed Landspeeder variant, would have been helpful for certain missions. All said, however, compared to the damage they could have done, I think we are looking at the lesser of two evils here. Yes, as long as it wasn't Assault Cannons. Not because they aren't good, but people wouldn't stop bitching that Chaos had a** cannons. Quote: Putting Generic Daemons in the new CSM list just seems to me like a platitude to keep players with daemon heavy armies happy. Like the only way to keep Word Bearer Demon Bombs from selling all they own. There are some positive changes (Terminator Prices, Non-Instakillable Demon Prince, Defiler WS3) though there seems to be more negative changes when compared to the old codex and fluff then positive. As was stated on DakkaDakka: Quote: Why does it seem that 40K players fear the new army books, and Fantasy players can't wait for them?
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:54 am
Ophiuchus King Kento OrionStark on the Imperium tech forum there was a discussion about how the Imperium would never upgrade there tech based on stolen Tau designs out of religion...but Chaos has no such stigmas...is there any reason that Chaos forces would not try and use stolen xeno tech to there advantage?
I believe they might have in certain stories. But ultimately, does chaos need tau pulse rifles? I dont know if theyd be able to set up shop to produce stuff, just because they were able to grab some.To expand on the above, the only person in a chaos army who CANNOT take a demon weapon is, ironically, a demon prince. Also, if the codex is similar to the old one, stuff like a blast master or plague sword are "gifts of the gods" and not demon weapons at all - So the question remains on why you'd WANT xenotech, when you've got a weapon designed by a demi-God. well it seems like all the demonic weapons and divine gifts are based on a mundane imperial template. why not use a tau template instead if it is a better template to work with. and i am sure that if they can produce power armor and boltguns they have some kind of engineering facilities.
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:26 am
I assume that is because the Imperium, and Chaos share the mindset for the most part, in human superiority. Chaos Space marines don't think that the Tau are a better race, they think that Chaos is best, and that all will serve the dark Gods or be destroyed. For the most part, the religious intolerant Imperium and its most hated Chaos Enemy are really two sides of the same coin. They both dislike aliens, but they differ on mutants and witches.
If I was a genetically enhances super human who was further gifted by the Dark Gods of Chaos, I don't think I would care about my bolter not being the best weapon in comparison to, say the Tau. The Tau are weak and aren't gifted like I would be.
Besides, I think a gun that shoots a bullet the size of a coke bottle beats a painful flashlight.
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:38 pm
lord_illpalazzo
Besides, I think a gun that shoots a bullet the size of a coke bottle beats a painful flashlight.God bless Kai-Guns.
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:31 pm
I was refering to a bolter. Kai guns shoot out bullets larger than coke bottles.
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Posted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:45 pm
lord_illpalazzo I assume that is because the Imperium, and Chaos share the mindset for the most part, in human superiority. Chaos Space marines don't think that the Tau are a better race, they think that Chaos is best, and that all will serve the dark Gods or be destroyed. For the most part, the religious intolerant Imperium and its most hated Chaos Enemy are really two sides of the same coin. They both dislike aliens, but they differ on mutants and witches.
If I was a genetically enhances super human who was further gifted by the Dark Gods of Chaos, I don't think I would care about my bolter not being the best weapon in comparison to, say the Tau. The Tau are weak and aren't gifted like I would be.
Besides, I think a gun that shoots a bullet the size of a coke bottle beats a painful flashlight. good point. and makes total sense.
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