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 Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 11:03 pm
FlashbackJon Keeeeeeentooooooo I think youre generalizing a good deal here, and also biased due to your pet army not having any changes made for you to talk about. You have sort of this "well at least you have something to b***h about" thing going. No, I just don't b***h about changes until long after they've happened. wink Quote: Now assuming the rumors are true, this new chaos codex is going to ******** some people over. hell you were talking about an infantry based word beareres army that infiltrated. Should the rumors be correct and veteran skills are gone, than that sort of screws that over. Minor example, but still its one. And I think the thing about fluff getting messed with was more the possible removal of veteran skills and diversity between legions and chaos powers. Generic demons and a stat point change for each type of marine does sort of ignore the fluff. Change or mess with isnt the best choice of words, but rather ignore. But once again thats assuming any of that is even true. The point is, all it means is that you're going to have to play differently. Hell, it may even play better, but people b***h because they hate change. HATE IT HATE IT HATE IT. Gamers are some of the WORST folks when it comes to change - we're constantly stuck in our ways, and anything that asks us to step outside our tiny safety blanket ends up as a nasty cheese'n'whine thread on some forum somewhere. Despite generic statlines being a GREAT idea, yeah, it's unfortunate that the Legion lists are going away - but if a player is relying on the Codex to make their army list unique and interesting, perhaps it's time to step back and re-examine the list. The lack of veteran skills is a minor loss - and I have a feeling there's going to be more diversity in its place. Quote: As for your generalization of everyone bitching about codecies, what bitching was there over say the witch hunters and the demon hunters? This is their first Codex. Before this, nothing. There was s**t-TON of bitching about the newest Tyranids Codex. It still goes on, in fact. Quote: Also by what youre saying wouldnt you fall into this group of negative nancies you describe as you do make sure to remind people when a new codex comes out that orks still havent gotten one? That's why I always include the emo every single time I complain about the "plight of the Ork player" - because I'm mocking the whole martyr mentality that seems to be part and parcel of this hobby. 3nodding
I agree with not bitching until it happens when discussing rules and what not. Thus my little disclaimers over and over again of "assuming its true". I dont see a point of complaining until it happens. However one could complain in your case everytime another army passes yours or the dark eldar up. Hell i was miffed when the BT got a codex, I wasnt against a rules change for them, but rather them getting an update before so many other armies.
Now i dont want to hear this "people hate change stuff" without some better examples. last time i had an argument about hating change it was at my old workplace where they claimed we (the employees) hated change everytime they "updated our computers or time clock punch procedure, which ended up with us making more and more calls to the building's one techie for the hundreds of us. Theres also for some people a feeling of why mess with what works? I wont argue that thousand sons need it.
Now how are generic statlines a great idea? This is reminding me of my discussion about the dark angels codex. How is simplifying things in a tabletop game better? Also I did not say anyone had to rely on the rules, however I think its a good idea for the rules to represent the diversity of these forces, that doesnt mean people cant put their own spins on things both rules and personal fluff wise.
Well the Sisters had rules before the codex, but Ive never heard anything about people complaining about them, and despite what you said about the nids i enver heard a thing. Maybe its because all the bug players i know were fine with it.
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:46 am
FlashbackJon No, I just don't b***h about changes until long after they've happened. wink Which is then too late. If you b***h about it after its release, guess what? You'll have to wait 6-7 years for the new Codex before it's addressed. Now, while it's still in the rumor phase, is the BEST time to b***h about it before GW actually goes off with it. Quote: Hell, it may even play better, but people b***h because they hate change. HATE IT HATE IT HATE IT. Gamers are some of the WORST folks when it comes to change - we're constantly stuck in our ways, and anything that asks us to step outside our tiny safety blanket ends up as a nasty cheese'n'whine thread on some forum somewhere. So, if someone decided to tell you that your nice little army based around shooting now lost all it's shooting advantages to a normal marine army, but in return, you can make it great again by buying $300 worth of stuff that last codex was worthless, you'd be like "Alright, lemme get my wallet?" Quote: Despite generic statlines being a GREAT idea, Butchers fluff and Gameplay. Daemonettes are as fast as a Plague Bearer in initiative terms. Insane-strong Bloodletters are as strong as a mass-of-flesh horror.
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 12:36 pm
I'm going to agree with the others. I have a small Chaos force, (Word Bearers, one day...) and I like the general feel of Chaos. One of the great things about the army is this diversity and the chance for so much difference between armies. Thats one reason why Chaos appeals to me. If they make everything generic, (Every Daemon weapon the same thing, every daemon the same thing, etc etc.), then the chance for the differences are gone. The difference between the big Khorne two handed choppy thing and the Accused Crozius was one thing that made them cool weapons. Word Bearers were a cool army to me because I would get the advantages and disadvantages of every daemon choice in the codex. Making them all Blah Daemons means I no longer have that bonus and that weakness.
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 7:38 pm
I really want to see some hard proof of the Chaos book being streamlined into Generic everything. How can they put order to chaos like that?
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 9:27 pm
Reddemon I really want to see some hard proof of the Chaos book being streamlined into Generic everything. How can they put order to chaos like that?
But in general theyre rumors, so theres no proof I know of. But I wouldnt put it past GW to do something retarded.
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:08 pm
If we lose veteran skills then there goes a small chunk in my Behemoth Lord.
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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:29 am
we'll see, anyway nice to see Red Corsairs in the spotlight... Pirates of the Maelstrom anyone?
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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:47 am
Reddemon I really want to see some hard proof of the Chaos book being streamlined into Generic everything. How can they put order to chaos like that? Those are the apparent plans for all new codex's, streamlines for younger players (Dark Angels was made so simple so some "5 year old son could play along with the pro's"). Rumors are coming from a guy who is quite reliable (From Warseer, posted a good deal of Eldar and Dark Angels stuff before it was known in the US). Plan on checking the codex at GD to see how much is true (See: Hopefully none) and how much is false.
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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:34 pm
King Kento Reddemon I really want to see some hard proof of the Chaos book being streamlined into Generic everything. How can they put order to chaos like that?
But in general theyre rumors, so theres no proof I know of. But I wouldnt put it past GW to do something retarded.If they make everything standard, then Chaos becomes the Borg(more or less). I hate how people run so far with rumors, that they contonue to make them feel more established.
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Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:29 pm
Reddemon King Kento Reddemon I really want to see some hard proof of the Chaos book being streamlined into Generic everything. How can they put order to chaos like that?
But in general theyre rumors, so theres no proof I know of. But I wouldnt put it past GW to do something retarded.If they make everything standard, then Chaos becomes the Borg(more or less). I hate how people run so far with rumors, that they contonue to make them feel more established.
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 5:57 am
Um. Tons of clarification on the rumors from GD (and from Jervis specifically). I won't bother to quote all of it, I'm sure you're all a resourceful bunch. Basically, as I suspected but didn't voice (here anyhow), the new Chaos Codex is focused on renegades, further from the EoT, which is why daemons are generic and weak. There is a plan for a Daemon Legion Codex which will focus on the Legions, their pantheons(?), and their daemons (with full statlines all around). I won't defend the choices, per se, strictly because I hate the whining - I'll just say I love them (except the temporary loss of Legions and my Word Bearer-specific stuff) and reiterate that people will b***h about anything that changes without any real consideration for the actual implications of said changes. cheese_whine 
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 8:37 am
eek eek eek eek eek eek eek eek Wets my pants*
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:39 am
Looks pretty good to me besides for the Demons. I don't know what everyone is complaining about or Im just missing something altogether.
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:52 am
[Sanity_is_for_the_Weak] Looks pretty good to me besides for the Demons. I don't know what everyone is complaining about or Im just missing something altogether. Raptors lost hit and run. Bodyless Thousand Sons are now only 1/4 the durability of a Nurglite against Guardsmen (Or 1/3 against Necrons or Space Marines). An all Tzeentch army (Sorcerors) is now led by a Khorne Warrior (Who hates Sorcerors more then anything else). To increase the sales of the Thousand Sons, they went from just 'fixing' them to overpowering them. Squads are led by Force Weapons-wielding models, and can dish out up to 21 Ap3 shots from 12". Demon weapons now make your character miss between one and two turns of Close-Combat because of the 1's "No attack" rule. Also, what the note fails to mention for point one is that the Average CSM has gone up one-to-two points. Raising the points cost for an already OK unit entry. Chaos Terminators are limited to one Heavy Weapon unless they're ten big(In which case, TWO!). Nurgle has gone up the most (4 times the durability of a basic marine, for likely only 5pts!), followed by Tzeentch. Those armies will be happy. Those who never bought Demons or Raptors will be fine with those changes, as it doesn't effect them (And since neither Nurgle or Tzeentch could have 'em before, doesn't bother them at all). Meanwhile, for those who did undivided, the changes vary from good (Wait, I can have 9 Oblits now?) to crappy (Wait, my Raptors no longer hit and run? My Demons no longer take up my troops? What happened to my wonderfully converted Chaos Basalisk?). Khorne goes meh (Loses the additional movement, but stays the same as it has always been! [Anyone who did khorne without Furious hasn't been using it quite right]), Slaneesh goes meh (Though we have to see what real changes come for them), and soon Necrons / Space Marines / 3+ Save armies will start whining about the overpowered Thousand Sons.
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Posted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:25 pm
That kinda sucks... My Word Bearer army just got raped. Its no use even trying to play Chaos now. Well, maybe the Word Bearers will get a nice boost in the Legion Specific book, which isn't coming out at the same time right? No, no of course not. That way, some Chaos armys are just ******** until the new book comes out.
Thank God my primary army is Orks. We haven't had an update in forever, and I sort of like it that way.
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![[Sanity_is_for_the_Weak]'s avatar](https://a1cdn.gaiaonline.com/dress-up/avatar/ava/32/0e/6f62f5683e0e32_flip.png?t=1193920799_6.00_00)
