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 Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:41 am
...My point is, people in Star Wars are slown down tremendously, because people use that approach. And if you want to say there is an omnicient viewer watching Superman, you have to admit there is one watching Star Wars, DBZ, Etc.
They are all much stronger with that approach.
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Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:05 pm
@ Andrew: I have a feeling that you're simply arguing the mountain push in order to make Goku's strength unfounded, making Superman stronger by default. You didn't argue that point before until you came back to the thread.
Next, I'd like to see some hard evidence of Goku using ki. Half the time when someone is punched, we only see the forearm / body, so you're telling me that sometimes they punch using ki force? I doubt it.
According to your logic, I could say that an invisible floating elephant has been following around the Z Fighters since day one.
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. . . Seriously, Superman's hit to Darkseid is child's play compared to what goes on in the DBU. You can't say that buildings with separations in between is thicker and harder than solid rock. When DBU characters get smashed through mountains, you can see the distance they travel. It's over massive land formations, meaning they travel kilometers on end. Even without hitting something, the length they get hit vastly outdoes what Supes did to Darkseid.
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Also, earlier on in the series, we see Piccolo lift a mountain while meditating, using ki. An entire mountain. And you're telling me that as a Super Saiyan, Goku struggles to push a giant rock apart with ki? Interesting comparison.
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:10 pm
There was an elephant following them? Whats his name?
An average sky scraper has a 2 feet of concrete a steel skeletal phrame, reinforced steel pipes( Plumbing etc..)
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Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 2:42 pm
Andrew, that sarcasm is going against your own logic. Highly contradicting.
And even with the mentioned materials of a skyscraper . . . solid rock still is far harder and thicker than it. Don't get me wrong. That feat was impressive, but I've seen better in the DBU.
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:06 pm
Yea I know.. But you're the one who brought it up.-/-* I'm not saying there havent been more impressive feats of strength. But calling it child's play in comparrison is more than alittle insulting. Lifting something and pushing two halfs that are closeing in on you are two differnt things. In real some men and lift cars. But do you think they would be able to hold off two cars slowly pushing in on them?
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Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:51 pm
If they can LIFT the car...possibly...depending on the force of it.
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 6:59 pm
Yeah, I went overboard with 'childs play'. Let me re-phrase that as 'It's good, but not good enough'.
For the record, and clarification, I refuse to post manga scans of such feats (the countless number of times DBZ characters are smashed through solid rock). It's way too obvious, and clearly outdoes the Supes feat.
And the car comparison is unfair. The car has no force (other than gravity) pushing on it when lifting. When pushing, adding in the cars slowly moving defeats the purpose. It proves nothing.
And since, for some reason, you didn't argue 2/3 of my points in my large post, I'm assuming you have no argument against them.
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Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:17 pm
Naah I was just being lazy. I'm not asking for manga scans of that because I've seen it before. Of course I would try to do that Vegeta. Is this not a vs debate? am I now inclined to defend my choice character with every possible (logical) explaination I can think of? Yes...I never said that. The forearm is only visible obviously because of speed the way they draw it accents that. I thought that was telekineses.. my mistake... If I'm not mistaken wasnt Goku pushing that apart after his fight with Buu? His Ki would obviously be lower than what it should be at that point. Werent the mountains being pushed together by Buu..? ** Didnt pay much attention to the Buu Saga.. ** Now I'm bringing something else into this. Impact force since you guys have somewhat convinced me( though I'm still a bt skeptical and I'll probably argue about strength later.) I'll say that I do think Goku is stronger than Superman by how much.. I havent determined yet. But strength and the force of impact are two differnt things. i've seen this in DBZ a number of times but I'm not sure of the greatest example for this. How big of a shockwave has Goku created by a punch?
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Posted: Mon Sep 18, 2006 7:28 pm
I love this guild lol. None of my comments ever go unawnsered and I can finnally explore a vast multitude of factors without people getting bored or flameing me. You guys are alright this thread has not only made me respect Goku more( I already knew he was dam powerful but to findd out that theres so much more is exciting!) But I'm developing more respect for TAS Superman aswell. I'm just glad that you guys are able to handle the questions I constantly throw out there.( Most people cant lol)
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Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:36 am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WqE3kC26MlwCHibi Pawning the anime Powerhouses Now to get on topic. OK lets see We have seen DBZ toons smash thru mountens come out the other side and Leave a 200 foot trail in the grou from wear the landed. That is far anof force to easly crash thrue 100 Sky scrapers. Hell Krillin was kicked thru a plane with no damge to him self but a plane is good anof to take down a skyscraper. KI Is used in a lot of fighting anime, go watch Air Master, they teach you all about How KI can be used to harden the body, and strangthin your body, just as long as you dont burn your self-out. I am betting they got that right from DBZ as well.
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:04 pm
@ Andrew:
Thank you. I'm glad we can agree that Goku is stronger than Supes. According to an in-depth discussion with Pym, the total weight of the mountains was no more than 500 tons . . . both halves combined. Add on the resistance that the ground provides and about 100-200 tons could easily be added on.
As for a shockwave that Goku has created . . . it is secondary to the first major point at hand. Seeing as Goku hits opponents farther than Supes hit Darkseid . . . and the opponents are smashed through things that are harder and thicker than buildings . . . the impact force is irrelivant.
Impact force is a result of how hard someone hits something, as we know. And seeing as Goku hits harder than Supes anyway, the impact force becomes insignificant.
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Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:01 pm
Sockwaves are to the best of my knowledge never shown in the manga, or at least hardly ever. I remember Piccolo and Frezza making really big shockwaves during their fight, but not very well how intense they were. Though I don't really see what sockwaves have to do with anything...
@Ant man-It's impossible to determin if Darkside slowed down or not since the entire "going through buildings" scein was slowed down. If Darkside was moveing at the speed he appeared to be, it's doutful that he would have enough momentum to go through even one building.
By the way, are we counting Dragon fist in this fight? Because if we are and Superman's invulnerability becomes a problem, Goku could always pull that off for a nice 1 hit KO. I'm assuming we aren't using it, however, since we aren't using SSJ4...
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Posted: Wed Sep 20, 2006 9:35 pm
Naah I was thinking about something else with the shock waves. Now on to more factors. Since I now believe or at least I hope that you guys wouldn't lie to me. stare ** Suspicious** I'm going to ask you some questions.
Has Goku ever been frozen solid ( I don't meen covered in ice I meen frozen all the way through) Has his resistance to heat build up any. How long would it take him to run out of Ki after a lot of exertion. I trust in a fight neither of them would feel the need to hold back any of their strength etc... Also here's something I just thought of. I believe that in battle experience etc wise Goku has more because hes been fighting since he was a small child. Superman hasn't as shown in Superman TAS when the Teen Titans had to pretty much save him from Brainiac when he was a Teenager. But I do believe that Superman is overall smarter than Goku.
Goku hasn't been to school a day in his life where as Superman has. Also Superman's opponents are much trickier and intelligent. ( Lex Luthor, Darkseid, Grod, Humanite, Brainiac Amanda Waller The Government etc...) I'm thinking that Superman could trick Goku. Also Superman has shown that although hes a Boyscout in certain situations has uses levels of underhandedness.
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Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:28 pm
@ Andrew:
No, Goku has never been frozen. In an early DBZ movie, he was frozen in ice, still had consciousness, and broke out. However, that is non-canon.
As for how long it takes for Goku to run out of ki . . . he virtually never seems to. Yes, there obviously is a limit to his ki, but from all fights we've seen, he never runs out. And we don't know how long those battles were, though most seemed to last about an entire day's length. But the fact still remains that we've never seen Goku run out of ki.
Yes, Supes is most likely smarter than Goku. And I agree with Goku having more experience. Those factors are quite similar, and could easily cancel each other out.
As for tricking Goku . . . I don't think it would happen. Out of battle, Goku is quite childish and naive, but in battle his goal is to win under any circumstances. Even in Dragonball Goku repeatedly uses the phrase "I won't fall for your tricks!" when countless enemies try to outsmart and trick Goku due to his age. None were successful. In Dragonball Z, he is most likely much smarter, having gained a good deal of common sense.
In fact, Goku being able to successfully keep up with Perfect Cell is an accomplishment on it's own. Cell had the fighting genes of at least eight people. This included their fighting styles, powers, and intelligence. Meaning that Cell was literally a battle genius. Though eventually losing, Goku was on par with Cell for a good amount of time.
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Saiyan Master Vegeta Vice Captain
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Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:02 pm
Hmm... This battle calls foe a terrain I think anyways. Do you have any suggestions on that. Here's mine. Ok there's this big event being held annd viewed by the entire world to build up money for charity to help orphans find cures for diseases etc. That's a pretty good reason fo them to fight. Goku vs Superman! A wide terrain with mountains plains and a forest. filled with various objects. Building fragments cars tanks etc... The area stretches for 10 miles giveing them ample space. Also I would like to RP this if anybody is willing.
Back to debating now. From what you've just told me I feel that I can safely assume that superman would be able to freeze Goku with Superbreath. Also I wasnt given an anwser to his resistence to heat. Most of the people who tried to trick Goku where evil Superman is not. Goku I believe has been tricked by good guys before.
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