|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:13 am
marysservant Theopneustos Arilavent He may, if he's Catholic. If he believes she has entered the kingdom of Heaven, then he believes she is a saint, and worth asking for intervention from. 1. Is praying to dead persons for Catholics only? 2. What if that's what he believes, but she's not in heaven? Of course it's not only for Catholics, but they seem to be the only ones who do it. Sorry for being unclear. As for the other question, if he believes that she is in Heaven, but she isn't, then of course she cant do anything.
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:16 am
CrazyKat685 marysservant Theopneustos Arilavent He may, if he's Catholic. If he believes she has entered the kingdom of Heaven, then he believes she is a saint, and worth asking for intervention from. 1. Is praying to dead persons for Catholics only? 2. What if that's what he believes, but she's not in heaven? Well, correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but is that why we usually pray to saints? Because they ARE in heaven? I'm not sure... Just curious... I thought you are only suppose to pray through jesus christ Examples (John 14:6 KJV) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. And the lords prayer? I don't think saints are included by that. Wouldn't praying in front of a picture or idol of lets say mary be against on of the ten commandments? You are praying to an idol. A few points that have been REITERATED OVER AND OVER: 1) Catholics do not pray to Mary or to Saints. 2) Catholics ask Mary and the Saint to ask God for intercession. 3) Idolatry is worship of idols or false Gods. 4) We do not worship any images. Now, as for John 14:6, no one is coming to God through the saints. It's talking about entering the kingdom of Heaven, not asking for intercession.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:37 am
Knotghlon Well, I don't see anything that refers to the Virgin Mary in Isa 66:7. Lets look at Isa 66:7 context in the scripture. "Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy." Isa 66:7 (NASB) The key issue I see in this passage is "before her pain came" meaning she didn't have pain until 'she' gave birth. It seems that there was pain involved but it happened after the birth of the boy. This does not mean the woman who gave birth was without original sin, there is no context to support that claim. That's like the passage that says Mary "had no relations with Joseph until the time of his [Jesus] birth." By our language today, it sounds like Mary had sex with him after she had given birth. However, it never actually says she did, so there is no way to tell. It does not say that she had pain afterwards, just that she gave birth without any. Even so, God's punishment for woman's sin was an increase in the pangs of childbearing. It never said there wasn't any to begin with. If the mother did not have labor pains, then she must have been sinless.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 10:26 am
Just reading this whole thread is awesome! blaugh heart I'm Non-denominational, btw. Arilavent CrazyKat685 marysservant Theopneustos Arilavent He may, if he's Catholic. If he believes she has entered the kingdom of Heaven, then he believes she is a saint, and worth asking for intervention from. 1. Is praying to dead persons for Catholics only? 2. What if that's what he believes, but she's not in heaven? Well, correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but is that why we usually pray to saints? Because they ARE in heaven? I'm not sure... Just curious... I thought you are only suppose to pray through jesus christ Examples (John 14:6 KJV) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. And the lords prayer? I don't think saints are included by that. Wouldn't praying in front of a picture or idol of lets say mary be against on of the ten commandments? You are praying to an idol. A few points that have been REITERATED OVER AND OVER: 1) Catholics do not pray to Mary or to Saints. 2) Catholics ask Mary and the Saint to ask God for intercession.3) Idolatry is worship of idols or false Gods. 4) We do not worship any images. Okay, after much decision on what to ask first, I picked what's in bold print. Any Catholic can answer this one! I don't know if this has answered before, but what references from the Holy Bible does it state that it is okay to ask Mary and other saints to interceed for us? I personally disagree that that could be right because while it is okay to ask a fellow believer on earth to pray for you, a spirit in heaven is kinda different. If a believer is done with thier work here on Earth, and they go to heaven, then what's the point of asking them to continue to pray for us? They are at peace, right? Along with that, if they are at peace, what's the point of praying for someone who's has passed away? I heard Catholics do that, too. 3nodding
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:04 pm
Knotghlon marysservant As for the Pope, Jesus gave Peter the "keys to Heaven and earth," whatever the church "bound on earth, would be bound in Heaven, and whatever they loosed on earth, would be loosed in Heaven." Peter was given a special privelage, he was "the Rock upon which Christ would build his church." Heh, also, remember when Peter sunk in the water? 'Sunk like a rock.' God's own pun! LOL. I dont want to sound like a ***** here but can you please perhaps provide me some scripture. That would be great heart Well, let's see about that scripture: '"And so I tell you, Peter: you are a rock, and on this rock foundation I will build my church, and not even death will ever be able to overcome it. I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven; what you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and what you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven." Ya happy?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 3:27 pm
im a christian all tha way, but whats that scripture specifically?
Also, God says we should not worship anything other than he. Jesus accepted worship, only because he's God 100% & Human 100%... He never said, you may worship my Mother Mary & give her proper statues in her honor. Not once.
God says we will be punished by our sins & when we sin, we will get less rewards in heaven. He also says that when we are good he rewards us both on earth & in Heaven. He never says you will pay the ultimate price if you sin... Or that when you're a good person you go to Heaven. You have to follow John 3:16... He also says to follow him (if you dont, then u dont really believe & love him like you say) because he is to be worshipped. Think about it... God created us & all that we enjoy, the least that we could do is worship him in all we do. He's the beginning and end.. He's awesome and I believe that he wants me to do a great good.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 5:35 pm
KrisMiska im a christian all tha way, but whats that scripture specifically? Also, God says we should not worship anything other than he. Jesus accepted worship, only because he's God 100% & Human 100%... He never said, you may worship my Mother Mary & give her proper statues in her honor. Not once. Quote: I'm sorry to inform you, "bub" but Catholics do not worship Mary, The Roman Catholic Church condemns worshipping God's Mother, she is simply given honor, as I have told you a few times before: "All generations shall call me blessed." Did not Elizabeth, Mary's cousin, say "blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus."?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 6:16 pm
[ Message temporarily off-line ]
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 7:57 pm
Rebecca1000 Okay, after much decision on what to ask first, I picked what's in bold print. Any Catholic can answer this one! I don't know if this has answered before, but what references from the Holy Bible does it state that it is okay to ask Mary and other saints to interceed for us? Where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is the only thing that is right? It says that everything that is in the Bible is the truth, but not that everything out of the Bible cannot be truth. In addition to that point, Paul specifically asks for the prayers of his brethren in his epistle to the Romans. How is this any different from asking the deceased to pray for us? Indeed, the saints, who are in the kingdom of Heaven, would be just as helpful, if not moreso, than any living person. Quote: I personally disagree that that could be right because while it is okay to ask a fellow believer on earth to pray for you, a spirit in heaven is kinda different. Why is it different? Quote: If a believer is done with thier work here on Earth, and they go to heaven, then what's the point of asking them to continue to pray for us? They are at peace, right? Yeah, they're as peace. Why should that stop them from praying for us? Quote: Along with that, if they are at peace, what's the point of praying for someone who's has passed away? I heard Catholics do that, too. 3nodding We dont pray for saints. We pray for the dead who may not be redeemed. Before Luther decided to go snipping through the Bible, there was a passage in the second book of Maccabees, wherein a group of idol worshipping Jews were pardoned by the prayers of Judas Maccabeus and the rest of his men. Of course, the Catholics still have that book, so they have that doctrine.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 9:19 pm
marysservant Knotghlon marysservant As for the Pope, Jesus gave Peter the "keys to Heaven and earth," whatever the church "bound on earth, would be bound in Heaven, and whatever they loosed on earth, would be loosed in Heaven." Peter was given a special privelage, he was "the Rock upon which Christ would build his church." Heh, also, remember when Peter sunk in the water? 'Sunk like a rock.' God's own pun! LOL. I dont want to sound like a ***** here but can you please perhaps provide me some scripture. That would be great heart Well, let's see about that scripture: '"And so I tell you, Peter: you are a rock, and on this rock foundation I will build my church, and not even death will ever be able to overcome it. I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven; what you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and what you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven." Ya happy? Are you saying that the papacy was given the authority of God's Son through Peter? What do you make of this then? 1 Peter 2 (NIV) 4As you come to him, the living Stone - rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him - 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6For in Scripture it says: "See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." 7Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone," 8and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message - which is also what they were destined for. 9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 2:14 pm
Arilavent Rebecca1000 Okay, after much decision on what to ask first, I picked what's in bold print. Any Catholic can answer this one! I don't know if this has answered before, but what references from the Holy Bible does it state that it is okay to ask Mary and other saints to interceed for us? Where does it say in the Bible that the Bible is the only thing that is right? Quote: Matthew 4:4 - Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God. " Quote: Matthew 7: 26 - "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. Both of these Scriptures state that Jesus Christ Himself believed that those who follow God must depend on the Word of God. Arilavent It says that everything that is in the Bible is the truth, but not that everything out of the Bible cannot be truth. I believe it depends on the issue; in the issue of Catholicism, however, it seems that some Catholic beliefs that are out of the Bible could be kinda risky to one's salvation, if you don't mind me saying. sweatdrop I do believe that there is scripture somewhere in the New Testament that states that it is dangerous to "add or subtract" to what God has says in His Word - I'm still searching for it. But, I will let you know when I find it. Arilavent In addition to that point, Paul specifically asks for the prayers of his brethren in his epistle to the Romans. How is this any different from asking the deceased to pray for us? Indeed, the saints, who are in the kingdom of Heaven, would be just as helpful, if not moreso, than any living person. Quote: I personally disagree that that could be right because while it is okay to ask a fellow believer on earth to pray for you, a spirit in heaven is kinda different. Why is it different? Quote: If a believer is done with thier work here on Earth, and they go to heaven, then what's the point of asking them to continue to pray for us? They are at peace, right? Yeah, they're as peace. Why should that stop them from praying for us? In response to all 3 of your responses, the difference between asking for someone on Earth to pray for you, and someone who's deceased and in heaven to pray for you - well, does the latter not speak for itself? They're deceased. They no longer have the spiritual power given by Christians to reach Christ with their prayers. If anything, they probably don't even need or want it. They're in a totally different world from where we are. "Arilavent"] Quote: Along with that, if they are at peace, what's the point of praying for someone who's has passed away? I heard Catholics do that, too. 3nodding We dont pray for saints. We pray for the dead who may not be redeemed. Before Luther decided to go snipping through the Bible, there was a passage in the second book of Maccabees... Whoa, sorry to interrupt, but ... Maccabees??? I've heard it said before on Gaia that that once was part of the Bible (along with an Acrophycra or something???) , but I'm going to need some serious proof to believe that!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 7:17 pm
Rebecca1000 Quote: Matthew 4:4 - Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God. " But man still lives on bread in some part, right? Not living on bread alone does not exclude bread from the equation. Just so, living with scripture and with tradition can be acceptable. Quote: Quote: Matthew 7: 26 - "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. I can put both the scripture and tradition into practice without either them being mutually exclusive. Quote: Both of these Scriptures state that Jesus Christ Himself believed that those who follow God must depend on the Word of God. Depending on the Word of God =/= Disregarding everything else in life. Quote: I believe it depends on the issue; in the issue of Catholicism, however, it seems that some Catholic beliefs that are out of the Bible could be kinda risky to one's salvation, if you don't mind me saying. sweatdrop That's your opinion, but I'm sure Catholic theologians have gone over them hundreds of times without any problem refuting that same stance in their own minds. Quote: I do believe that there is scripture somewhere in the New Testament that states that it is dangerous to "add or subtract" to what God has says in His Word - I'm still searching for it. But, I will let you know when I find it. I do hope you dont start from the beginning of the Bible, as you'll find it at the end of Revelation. wink Quote: In response to all 3 of your responses, the difference between asking for someone on Earth to pray for you, and someone who's deceased and in heaven to pray for you - well, does the latter not speak for itself? They're deceased. They no longer have the spiritual power given by Christians to reach Christ with their prayers. If anything, they probably don't even need or want it. They're in a totally different world from where we are. I disagree. A dead Christian remains a Christian. Why would Gods commands disappear from one life to the other, while our spirit remains constant. Quote: Whoa, sorry to interrupt, but ... Maccabees??? I've heard it said before on Gaia that that once was part of the Bible (along with an Acrophycra or something???) , but I'm going to need some serious proof to believe that! Oh my, please do your research, then, as it's very true. You see, is missing several books and verses that were used for hundreds of years prior to the Protestant revolution. It's missing 1 and 2 Maccabees, the rest of the Book of Esther, the last Psalm (151), and a bunch of others. You can find it on Wikipedia, if you really want proof. Also, any encyclopedia you might own will probably have the word Septuagint in it, which is the Catholic version of the Bible.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 8:55 pm
Sweet for free encyclopedias, eh?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septuagint#Christian_use
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apocrypha#Majority_Christian_usage
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:52 am
marysservant KrisMiska im a christian all tha way, but whats that scripture specifically? Also, God says we should not worship anything other than he. Jesus accepted worship, only because he's God 100% & Human 100%... He never said, you may worship my Mother Mary & give her proper statues in her honor. Not once. I'm sorry to inform you, "bub" but Catholics do not worship Mary, The Roman Catholic Church condemns worshipping God's Mother, she is simply given honor, as I have told you a few times before: "All generations shall call me blessed." Did not Elizabeth, Mary's cousin, say "blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus."? You're misinterpreting Scripture. Of course she was blessed because she was anointed to serve God by giving birth to the One who would be the Messiah. That doesn't mean that people should honor Mary. Only God deserves all honor and praise. And really, you shouldn't refer to her as "God's Mother" because that's blasphemous. Mary was a sinner who needed to be redeemed just like everyone else. Luke 1 (NIV) 46And Mary said: "My soul glorifies the Lord 47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior I have to say, claiming that the Roman Catholic Church is the "one true church" is a bold statement to make (I asked you in PM why you believe this but you never answered). What about the other churches that Paul and the others founded around the Mediterranean? You know, like the ones mentioned in Revelation and all those letters which included the letter addressed to the church in Rome. Nowhere in Scripture does it say that Rome is the center. In fact, the very first church was in Jerusalem, not Rome. You probably think the woman in Revelation 12 is Mary, don't you? Many Catholics believe that and it's wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:17 am
Marie-Novelle Mary was a sinner who needed to be redeemed just like everyone else. So, what about that whole... "born without original sin" thing? Marie-Novelle Luke 1 (NIV) 46And Mary said: "My soul glorifies the Lord 47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior You cite this why?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
