Welcome to Gaia! ::

[MADG] Hangout

Back to Guilds

Formerly the Mil-a-Day Giveaway, this guild is now a just great place to hangout and meet some new friends. 

Tags: [MADG], Hangout, friends, relax, bunnies 

Reply [MADG]: Debate
An educated debate: Pro-life or Pro-Choice? Goto Page: [] [<<] [<] 1 2 3 ... 9 10 11 12 13 14 [>] [»|]

Quick Reply

Enter both words below, separated by a space:

Can't read the text? Click here

Submit

Pasithea

PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:25 pm


marshjazz
Well, I was mainly refering to giving a fetus control over your body. Your completely right about that. And about adoption solving unwanted parenting not pregnency. I'm complete pro-chioce as well, so you don't have to prove anything to me. It seems like pro-chiocers are controling most of the abortion debates. We've only had maybe 3 pro-life people come into the thread.

Yeah I wish more lifers came in here. xD I have no one to debate with!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:21 pm


I am Pro-Choice.

I think a woman has a right to choose if she gives birth to the baby or aborts it. When I was little I was sexually abused, and if I had gotten pregnant, I would've had an abortion. A child (not just a little kid, but someone under 18 ) would have trouble going through a pregnancy and it is very possible that they would die giving birth. Even if you're an adult, it's better to abort the fetus than give birth to an unwanted child.

Boku wa Ichirin no Hana


The Extra Syllable

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:37 am


no it shouldnt happen. one your taking away a new life, and two the people could have prevented the babie from being made.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 4:38 am


Pasithea

Also I don't even get the rape exception. Regardless of how the fetus was created it is still a human fetus, the same as any other human fetus. I question every pro-lifer who makes a rape exception: what makes a rape fetus less worthy of life than the fetus conceived through consensual sex?


But when you are raped, many times you are probably not ready to have a child nor is it your fault because you didn't want to have sex. You should have the choice if you want to birth the child and go through the pain or not. I don't beleive a fetus is a living human until 3 months. Which means I don't beleive a fetus has true rights until then. I do beleive it has the right to become a human child if it is the fault of the mother, who could have easily avoided this by not having sex, whereas a raped girl didn't have much choice as it was forced upon her.
There was once a nine-year-old girl in my community who was raped and she ended up having the child. I'm not sure if the child lived or not, but if a girl this age is raped, don't you think she should be able to have an abortion? But what if a 15 year old was having sex intentially

x_Silver_Starlight_x

8,800 Points
  • Forum Sophomore 300
  • Signature Look 250
  • Citizen 200

marshjazz

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:36 am


Yeah, it would be nice.

@anime: A fetus, is a fetus, is a fetus. It doesn't matter if it was made forcefully or unforced. It is potential life as pro-lifers call it. What makes 3 months a cut off to be considered living? And scientifically a fetus is living before it is even concieved since a sperm is living. If your argument is that a fetus is living then don't cut your grass because grass is living as well.
Also, "the woman could have easily avoided this by not having sex" So where is the mans fault in this? It takes 2 to make a baby. The woman should have to deal with all the consequences? A man can just as easily run away from the baby but the mother is stuck with
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:44 am


Hyuuga Rhulain
no it shouldnt happen. one your taking away a new life, and two the people could have prevented the babie from being made.

Sex is not just for reproduction. If it were then we'd go into heat like animals and only have sex when we were ovulating.

Pasithea


Pasithea

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:49 am


animegirl113
Pasithea

Also I don't even get the rape exception. Regardless of how the fetus was created it is still a human fetus, the same as any other human fetus. I question every pro-lifer who makes a rape exception: what makes a rape fetus less worthy of life than the fetus conceived through consensual sex?


But when you are raped, many times you are probably not ready to have a child nor is it your fault because you didn't want to have sex. You should have the choice if you want to birth the child and go through the pain or not. I don't beleive a fetus is a living human until 3 months. Which means I don't beleive a fetus has true rights until then. I do beleive it has the right to become a human child if it is the fault of the mother, who could have easily avoided this by not having sex, whereas a raped girl didn't have much choice as it was forced upon her.
There was once a nine-year-old girl in my community who was raped and she ended up having the child. I'm not sure if the child lived or not, but if a girl this age is raped, don't you think she should be able to have an abortion? But what if a 15 year old was having sex intentially

You have the punishment mentality. You want to punish people who choose to have sex with pregnancy and birth. You do not care about the fetus, only the circumstance in how it was created. You think people need to live with the 'consequences' of their actions. Example, if a smoker smokes for their entire life and knows they will get cancer from it but does not stop, by what you're saying here, they should not be allowed to seek medical attention for the lung cancer they will get in the future and they must live with their consequences regardless of how it may affect their life.

If two people choose to have sex with one another, even if they are too young to have kids, if they will have to drop out of school, if they already have children and can't afford another, etc. you believe they should be forced to have the child even if it ruins their life. I disagree with this belief. I don't agree with forcing things on people that could possibly change their lives forever in a way that they may not agree with. It is not my place to be changing these people's lives forever simply because my morals say it's right or wrong to have an abortion. If you want to get some insight into the woman who has had an abortion and the reasons she has chosen it I suggest reading some of these stories. My favorite one so far is Regina's story under the new stories page. http://imnotsorry.net/news.htm Regina doesn't really consider herself pro-life or pro-choice, and she chose abortion for a million different reasons, but she believes that her daughter (yes she thinks it's a girl) will wait for her when the time is right.

No matter how the child was made I think every single woman has a right to abortion. She should never be made to bear a child unless she is completely devoted to caring for it. If a nine year old girl was raped I would say of COURSE she has a right to abortion, if that is what she truly wants she should be allowed to seek one (but if she wants to keep it as well, then by all means that too is her choice), and if a 15 year old girl who is still obviously a child herself gets pregnant she too should be allowed to seek an abortion.

I honestly don't care about the circumstances of how the girl/women get pregnant. That is why I am pro-choice. I think every single woman has a right to govern her own body and make her own medical choices.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 3:06 pm


The 3 month thing is my opinion. It's not a fact, and I'm not using it as defense. I just stated it as a point.

The man is legally bined and can't just run. If there is proof he is the father, a simple paternaty test, than he must pay child support. And a child can be put up for adoption if you truly can't take care of it.

I care about the fetus, that's why I beleive if it's the mother's fault (and the father's too) they should bring it into the world. But I think if it's not her fault, and there wouldn't have been any chance of a pregnancy if not for the crime, than they should have the choice.

I'll just leave it at this.

x_Silver_Starlight_x

8,800 Points
  • Forum Sophomore 300
  • Signature Look 250
  • Citizen 200

Pasithea

PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:35 pm


animegirl113
The 3 month thing is my opinion. It's not a fact, and I'm not using it as defense. I just stated it as a point.

The man is legally bined and can't just run. If there is proof he is the father, a simple paternaty test, than he must pay child support. And a child can be put up for adoption if you truly can't take care of it.

I care about the fetus, that's why I beleive if it's the mother's fault (and the father's too) they should bring it into the world. But I think if it's not her fault, and there wouldn't have been any chance of a pregnancy if not for the crime, than they should have the choice.

I'll just leave it at this.

Actually I saw an interesting story on the news a few weeks ago about a man who was supposedly this one kids dad and was being forced to pay child support for the kid. I guess he finally got a court ordered paternity test which proved he was not the child's father, however the court still ordered him to pay child support. I think the reason he still has to pay is because his name is on the child's birth certificate though.

It's pretty ridiculous if you ask me.

I think fathers should have a right to sign off all legal rights to the child if they truly want nothing to do with it. But then of course they would never be allowed to see it ever again or have any contact with it if they chose to do this. In a way it would be like adopting, giving up all parental rights to the child, except the mother could still keep it. And I think the same should be allowed for the woman if say the father wants to keep it, like she should be allowed to right off all parental rights too. I'm not sure how well this could be enforced though but it's an idea.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:52 pm


I am Pro-Choice because legal abortion done within the safety of a hospital is better than the alternative, the coat-hanger treatment.
Also, I would rather birth rates be lowered and that there not be so many unwanted children in the world.
I agree that women shouldn't use abortion as their only form of birth control, but still, it's their choice, and if America is truly a land of the free, then those free women should be allowed to choose whether they want the fetus aborted or not.

One of the members somewhere had something in his signature about an unborn child having the same "alive-ness" as a plant, and I agree with that. It grows but it has no feeling or thoughts, like a flower.

beccamon


Hillbilly Hikari

Sarcastic Bibliophile

31,600 Points
  • Partygoer 500
  • Attending the Ball 25
  • Happy Birthday! 100
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:55 pm


PRO-LIFE

If you donh't want the baby in the first place, then don't have sex. ITs that simple. If you believe you're mature enough to have sex then you should be mature enough to handle a pregnancy and child. Even if you don't want the child or aren't in a position to take care of one there's a lot of options for you and your baby, one the obvious ones being adoption. Is it the best situation? No, but its better than killing a human life.

And don't give me the argument of "What is the woman is raped?"; cuz then I'll respond as such: A) It's not the childs' fault that the mother was raped, the child should still be given a chance to have a fruitful life regardless of the means of conception and B) Less than 1% of all rape cases result in a pregnancy.

The mother and father should have choices, but so should the child. Why should one person's choice override another's? 99% of the time the parents make the CHOICE to have sex, they made the CHOICE to use protection that isn't 100% perfect, and they made the CHOICE to continue in a mature act.

I'm not seeing choices being taken away except for the childs'.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:56 pm


Hikari Aijuntani
PRO-LIFE

If you donh't want the baby in the first place, then don't have sex. ITs that simple. If you believe you're mature enough to have sex then you should be mature enough to handle a pregnancy and child. Even if you don't want the child or aren't in a position to take care of one there's a lot of options for you and your baby, one the obvious ones being adoption. Is it the best situation? No, but its better than killing a human life.

And don't give me the argument of "What is the woman is raped?"; cuz then I'll respond as such: A) It's not the childs' fault that the mother was raped, the child should still be given a chance to have a fruitful life regardless of the means of conception and B) Less than 1% of all rape cases result in a pregnancy.

The mother and father should have choices, but so should the child. Why should one person's choice override another's? 99% of the time the parents make the CHOICE to have sex, they made the CHOICE to use protection that isn't 100% perfect, and they made the CHOICE to continue in a mature act.

I'm not seeing choices being taken away except for the childs'.
About the rape thing. Why should I be forced to give birth to a child I didn't plan on making and in the most digusting, violent way? Even if I made the choice to have sex, why should I be forced to give birth to a child I don't want? If you're truly thinking of the child, you'd be thinking about how it would react to be adopted, or being brought up by a mother that didn't want it in the first place. Plus, how can you give a fetus a choice? It doesn't choose whether it wants to be born or not so to say take away a woman's choice for something that doesn't have a thought until it's born is utter lunacy to me.

Aakiyana


Pasithea

PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:43 pm


Hikari Aijuntani
PRO-LIFE

If you donh't want the baby in the first place, then don't have sex. ITs that simple. If you believe you're mature enough to have sex then you should be mature enough to handle a pregnancy and child.


I honestly do not understand all you people in punishment camp. What logical process has to go on in your head that morally justifies using pregnancy, childbirth, and in some cases parenting; the genesis of a new human life that will think and feel and want and need… as punishment to those who you have deigned transgressors? You say that baby making is a responsibility tied to sex. Many people believe that this is simply untrue, since we have LONG had technology that separates sex and pregnancy.

And I'm sorry but not every woman has the funds to carry a pregnancy to term and birth.

The average cost of an American birth : $8,800
"Nationally, a vaginal delivery cost $7,737, with C-sections averaging about $11,000."

Mind you, that doesn’t include the cost of prenatal care, which is only covered if you are lucky enough to have health insurance and if your insurance includes prenatal care. Many plans do not.

An abortion in the US generally costs between $300 and $700 dollars, depending on your location, the type of abortion you’re getting, what clinic you go to, whether or not you can receive financial aid, so on and so forth.

Hikari Aijuntani
Even if you don't want the child or aren't in a position to take care of one there's a lot of options for you and your baby, one the obvious ones being adoption. Is it the best situation? No, but its better than killing a human life.


Adoption is the solution to unwanted parenting, not unwanted pregnancy. In order to place a child for adoption, one must first carry it to term and undergo all the physical, psychological, and sociological ramifications of that process. It’s generally a very much life-altering experience, it makes you undergo physical changes, many of them permanent, it alters your brain chemistry, and don’t forget, unless you cloister yourself away for the entire duration, it causes all kinds of social speculation among your friends, family, coworkers, acquaintances, strangers on the street, etc. Imagine being pregnant unintentionally with every intention of forking the infant over to waiting adoptee parents upon its birth. What do you think every time some random person lays their hand on your abdomen on the subway and congratulates you?

And adoption doesn't necessarily assure you the knowledge that the child that you created will be cared for and provided for and raised in a way that you would agree with. You might never have contact with the child again, knowing only that you created one, not whether it is well, or whether it is even alive. The current system of adoption in this country is deplorable, and until every single orphanage and foster home worldwide is empty and there's still a massive demand for children, adoption has proven itself not to be the end-all-be-all fixit solution. While I feel for the plight of the childless who seek offspring, it is not the job of the unintentionally pregnant to play broodmares for them.

For every shiny new baby you add to the system, another existing child doesn’t get adopted.
Meet Robin and Tyshonia .

http://photolisting.adoption.com/foster-adoption/children/robin-11041
http://photolisting.adoption.com/foster-adoption/children/tyshonia+++-10782

They need a family. If I give birth to a perfect, healthy, newborn, and a loving family adopts it, that's one less family who will consider adopting Robin and Tyshonia.

Hikari Aijuntani
And don't give me the argument of "What is the woman is raped?"; cuz then I'll respond as such: A) It's not the childs' fault that the mother was raped, the child should still be given a chance to have a fruitful life regardless of the means of conception and B) Less than 1% of all rape cases result in a pregnancy.


So, a woman gets raped and then pregnant. Adoption is a perfectly viable option. However, the woman still has to endure nine months of pregnancy.

Think about it for a moment. The entire concept of rape goes as follows: something was put inside of you that you were powerless to remove. The resulting mental scarring (oh yes, there WILL be mental scarring) will focus on a complex based on control/power, due to the fact that when she was raped, the woman had none.

Now think about pregnancy. Inside that very same space is something alien, something the woman cannot control, something put there by the man who stole her power and self-esteem, that she is powerless to remove.

Imagine being raped for nine months solid. I know it's not the same thing, but in the ruins of the woman's mind, it might as well be. It could drive her rather permanently insane.

So what's more important? The life of a woman who's already grown and lived and loved and developed a full and rich personality, or the life of a wad of cells? Would you prefer that the cells die and the woman eventually recovers, or that the cells live and mature into a baby while the woman is so heavily mentally impacted that she will probably never recover?

I'd say it is far, far more important to preserve a life that already exists rather than ruin it, and create a new one. That's like saying that it's okay to chop down a 2000-year-old sequoia and plant a sapling in its place. Yes, that sapling might POTENTIALLY become a 2000-year-old giant ... but then again, it might not. And we've already got this beautiful tree.

And then you get the tricky dilemma of a woman who was raped or otherwise abused in the past, and still traumatized from the experience.

A common behavior pattern of a victim suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder induced by rape is to become promiscuous as a self-defense mechanism; she has "proof" that both she and her body are worthless, so therefore there's no harm to be had in having lots of sex. She sleeps around as a form of self-validation, attempting to support what little remains of her self-esteem but failing each time because she puts herself into a situaiton where she is only used. Since she is unable to form emotional connections, any time a benevolent partner might enter her life with the possibility of love, she ups and runs and tries again. It's a cycle that most never break out of. She repeats the pattern over and over, each time trying to make it work right and failing. For an example, in the movie "Forrest Gump," the history is inaccurate but the behavior patterns of the character Jenny, who was abused by her father, are a classic case.

It's very likely that a woman in such a pattern might become pregnant, since she'll often have so little regard for herself that protection seems unimportant. And so even though that particular sexual act was 'consensual,' she'll probably be just as unable to carry a baby as the aforementioned pregnancy-from-rape case, even if it's years later.

Hikari Aijuntani
The mother and father should have choices, but so should the child. Why should one person's choice override another's? 99% of the time the parents make the CHOICE to have sex, they made the CHOICE to use protection that isn't 100% perfect, and they made the CHOICE to continue in a mature act.

My choice overrides the other's because my uterus belongs to ME. My body belongs to ME. I should be allowed to make my own personal medical decisions about my body without interference.

No other human has the right to use another human's body without their express and ongoing consent. I do not give a fetus consent to reside within me causing permanent physical, psychological and emotional changes to my body.

Hikari Aijuntani
I'm not seeing choices being taken away except for the childs'.


Please, feel free to ask the fetus whether it wants to live or die, I can guarantee you will not receive a response. For one to make choices one must be a sentient and conscious being. I'm sure you'll agree with me that a coma victim cannot make their own choices for themselves due to lack of consciousness.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:50 pm


Aakiyana
About the rape thing. Why should I be forced to give birth to a child I didn't plan on making and in the most digusting, violent way? Even if I made the choice to have sex, why should I be forced to give birth to a child I don't want? If you're truly thinking of the child, you'd be thinking about how it would react to be adopted, or being brought up by a mother that didn't want it in the first place. Plus, how can you give a fetus a choice? It doesn't choose whether it wants to be born or not so to say take away a woman's choice for something that doesn't have a thought until it's born is utter lunacy to me.


Its a simple matter of protecting someone who can't protect themselves. Someone with a mental disability who has no cognitive thought process, and therefore cannot protect themselves would still be protected by society, an unborn child still has that right albeit unborn.

Obviously every child deserves to be brought up in a loving, protective, and wanted environment; however, if that is not available i.e. the mother doesn't not want the child for whatever the reason may be out of many; then that child should still be able to experience life whether it be through adoption or foster care.

Hillbilly Hikari

Sarcastic Bibliophile

31,600 Points
  • Partygoer 500
  • Attending the Ball 25
  • Happy Birthday! 100

x_Silver_Starlight_x

8,800 Points
  • Forum Sophomore 300
  • Signature Look 250
  • Citizen 200
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 2:44 am


Now I'm starting to lean into pro-choice. Lot's of people are making good points... ugh! I'm so confused!
Reply
[MADG]: Debate

Goto Page: [] [<<] [<] 1 2 3 ... 9 10 11 12 13 14 [>] [»|]
 
Manage Your Items
Other Stuff
Get GCash
Offers
Get Items
More Items
Where Everyone Hangs Out
Other Community Areas
Virtual Spaces
Fun Stuff
Gaia's Games
Mini-Games
Play with GCash
Play with Platinum