The Chaos Space Marines

[FlashbackJon]

A.R.G.U.S Mykal

Get ready for a good chuckle.
Just one thing, how did people model Chaos Posessed before the hideous new models came out?
They made them indepandantly. There's enough to make one squad of posessed by mixing heads, and the mutation/bolt pistol sprue.
I remember saying it was a WYSIWIG game, not a Counts As game.

I'm sorry, a mutated claw is a WYSIWYG close combat weapon.

This is why it is CALLED a 'close combat weapon' rather than a knife or chainsword or dangerously sharp object.

A.R.G.U.S Mykal

I see where you're coming from, but in all the games I've seen and all the Codeceies I've read, CSM troop choices generally have 2 normal arms and normal weapons. The mutation sprue is reserved for posessed units. Chaos Mutations can come in the form of the odd twist, bump, melt etc, but those are merely cosmetic.

That... that... that isn't even based in fluff, man! We're talking about Chaos Space Marines here. The mutation sprue is NOT reserved for possessed, or else it wouldn't be included in the box.

It wasn't even included in the box to model the squad that didn't exist - there's not even a precedent for that! (Usually, you're just screwed until the appropriate boxed set comes out, or you convert the unit yourself.)

A.R.G.U.S Mykal

As for the Ork hand weapon, I do get you. I have a model with an Ork Power Klaw, and depending on my mood/what I'm against, I use it as a powerfist or lightning claw, or a power weapon of generic design.

Firstly, an Ork power klaw can only BE a power klaw because they have no lightning claws or power weapons of any kind. emo

A.R.G.U.S Mykal

GW do allow you to have some leway, like a plaguesword doesn't have to be a sword, it could be a spear, glaive, halberd, mace, axe. But a Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon can't be a bolt pistol and freakish arm, because that gets easily confused with the freakish arm chaos mutation.

smile

Here's the kicker: there IS NO "freakish arm chaos mutation." The mutation sprue does not represent any particular daemonic mutations, nor are the designed to be exclusive to possessed squads.

All the mutations are there to be used to represent any number of things in WYSIWYG. You'd have to argue long and hard with even the harshest tourney judge to prove that Chaos Space Marines are sans-mutation unless they belong to a possessed squad. It's simply ridiculous and no one who is familiar with Chaos would buy that.

A.R.G.U.S Mykal

So if you have a squad of normal men with the mutation sprue and then some other men with the mutation sprue who are posessed, is there any real way to tell a difference?

The same way you tell the difference between Chosen (who have no models of their own) and Chaos Space Marines - they are designated as such before the match.

If it needs to be clearer: "The squad with all mutations is the possessed squad. The squad with a couple mutations, plus some bolters and heavy weapons, is the Space Marine squad." TA-DA! That was simple and WYSIWYG.

Unless, of course, you are suggesting that I'm now obligated by WYSIWYG rules to buy and use Space Marine Veteran models to field my Space Marine Veterans*, despite my suitably converted replacements that are ultimately built from a Space Marine sprue?

yo_momma, don't under any circumstances remove your mutated Chaos Space Marines from your squad. They are flavorful, interesting, appropriate, and most of all, LEGAL.

* Purely hypothetical since I own no Space Marine Veterans.  

[[Sanity_is_for_the_Weak]]

********, and I was specificly looking forward to mykals advice on my chaos guys...because I thought he was an expert!
well, I guess hes quasi expert.
so whats better? mutation or chainsword?  

[FlashbackJon]

They would both be considered close combat weapons in this instance. Go with whatever floats your boat. (I vote mutation.)  

[[Sanity_is_for_the_Weak]]

FlashbackJon

They would both be considered close combat weapons in this instance. Go with whatever floats your boat. (I vote mutation.)

I would too, but dont certian CC weapons gain extra attacks or increased stats?
oui? non?  

[FlashbackJon]

The only weapons that makes a difference are power weapons, powerfists, and lightning claws, all of which are restricted to your Aspiring Champ.

All your regular Marines will have close combat weapons, which can be a ravenous claw-covered arm, a chainsword, a bayonet, a bootknife, or whatever you want. EVEN IN WYSIWYG.  

[[Sanity_is_for_the_Weak]]

A few questions, does a knife have the same ability to kill someone than a chainsword (stats wise or whatever)
and, what do troopers with bolters do if they arent equipted with a knife (is the plastic kind for decoration or do they automaticly get knives to fight with when they get into CC)  

[FlashbackJon]

A CCW makes no difference in close combat (you just fight using your base Attacks and Strength scores), unless you have TWO, or one plus a pistol weapon.

So for all intents and purposes, it doesn't matter if your Bolter Marines have a CCW too, they just fight as normal, so it's almost purely decorative.  

[[Sanity_is_for_the_Weak]]

well that blows if a frickin chainsaw does as much hurt as a butterknife...  

[King Kento]

A.R.G.U.S Mykal

King Kento

As for wysiwyg, it IS chaos. Mutations are just a part of the look. I think as its not some huge model engulfing thing or uniform through out the squad no oe will claim it breaks that rule.

Most people also seem to interpret wysiwyg as 'counts as'. As long as you can justify it. My rhino has a few plates on it extra that i made, not very noticeable and its not going to make anyone think extra armor, but theyre there, so I can claim it as having been modeled. Where as most people arent going to see an ork handed marine and think its a powerfist model unless he specifies it or something.

I see where you're coming from, but in all the games I've seen and all the Codeceies I've read, CSM troop choices generally have 2 normal arms and normal weapons. The mutation sprue is reserved for posessed units. Chaos Mutations can come in the form of the odd twist, bump, melt etc, but those are merely cosmetic.

I also get where you're coming from with the tanks, and it helps to have something to compare to, y'know?

As for the Ork hand weapon, I do get you. I have a model with an Ork Power Klaw, and depending on my mood/what I'm against, I use it as a powerfist or lightning claw, or a power weapon of generic design.

GW do allow you to have some leway, like a plaguesword doesn't have to be a sword, it could be a spear, glaive, halberd, mace, axe. But a Bolt Pistol and Close Combat Weapon can't be a bolt pistol and freakish arm, because that gets easily confused with the freakish arm chaos mutation.

smile

-Mykal

At the same time though, as close combat weapons dont do anyhting but add an attack, theres not much to worry about whether he uses a hand or not as a spork is the same stat wise as a chainsword. Something I think is off.  

[King Kento]

A.R.G.U.S Mykal

lord_illpalazzo

I like to seperate my squads too, but I belive my close combat weapons, it means anything usable in close comabt. A large hook claw thing would count as a close combat weapons, so mutations, (agian, a very normal part of Chaos) can be close combat weapons.

Now, if you like all your possesed to be the only thing mutated, that is fine. However, I agree with King Kento, in that mutant arms are close combat weapons.

So if you have a squad of normal men with the mutation sprue and then some other men with the mutation sprue who are posessed, is there any real way to tell a difference?

-Mykal

I guess larger more obviouse mutations. That and maybe making them look like they were all drawn from higher up ranking marines as possesion is usually regarded as a good thing. That or if its a theme something that differentiates them other than mutation. Like a style of mutation, or if its say demonic flight, that easily sets them apart. Chaos is a tricky thing.<--Understatement  

[King Kento]

yo_momma117

well, I guess hes quasi expert.
so whats better? mutation or chainsword?

Oh hell, its chaos. I think Mykal is wrong on this one, but he does have, plays, and knows the codex. His is an opinon, mine and flashbackjon's comments are opinions (that I think are right), either way, its chaos. Chaos is vague, which is the way its supposed to be.

Its a model game, have fun and try to be clear and stick to the rules, but at the same time dont limit yourself. An extreme example but there were once two guys arguing over whether a guy's trukk was red or burgundy and thus it did or didnt get its extra inch.  

[FlashbackJon]

King Kento

An extreme example but there were once two guys arguing over whether a guy's trukk was red or burgundy and thus it did or didnt get its extra inch.

eek  

[Faeruithir88]

King Kento

yo_momma117

well, I guess hes quasi expert.
so whats better? mutation or chainsword?

Oh hell, its chaos. I think Mykal is wrong on this one, but he does have, plays, and knows the codex. His is an opinon, mine and flashbackjon's comments are opinions (that I think are right), either way, its chaos. Chaos is vague, which is the way its supposed to be.

Its a model game, have fun and try to be clear and stick to the rules, but at the same time dont limit yourself. An extreme example but there were once two guys arguing over whether a guy's trukk was red or burgundy and thus it did or didnt get its extra inch.

So you see how keeping mutations to Possessed squads or your Chosen/Aspiring Champions keeps the game running smoother and altogether more enjoyable.  

[A.R.G.U.S Mykal]

o.o

Right. This might be a long post unless I get bored and cut it off.

Posessed can't have bolters, they can only have a bolt pistol and a close combat weapon. I do wholeheatedly see where you're coming from, saying that the CCW can be a mutation from the sprue, as that is how one would model posessed.
However, I don't believe that a Mutation should be a WYSIWYG CCW for normal CSM, because then it could easily be confused for Daemon Strength, Talons, Mutations, or anything else. When I see a mutated arm, I think mutation. When I see a weapon, I see a weapon. That's my take on what I see being what I get.

CSM is short for Chaos Space Marine though. For years, there havn't been posessed models, and people aren't that great at covnerting. For those here who actually have the Codex, jump to page 66 and 67. See the 2 troop choices on page 66? They have Bolters in one squad and Bolt Piston and CCW in another. Not one mutation at all. Now investigate further to mage 67. At the top there are two units. With CCWs and Bolt Pistols, with mutated heads. They are posessed. They have the correct weapon requirements and look suitable for the roles of posessed. I see posessed there, that is what I take it as. I see troops on page 66, that is what I take it as.

Also, please make reference to page 0, the inside cover. Scan from left to right, top to bottom, as if you're reading. You can see Thousand Sons, Khorns, Slaanesh and Nurgle, then some troops, some Khorne again, a Fast Attack choice. Below that fast attack choice is the squad of Posessed, all mutated up to the gills. If anyone was wondering, there are Chosen around the middle and the right, as identified by their leaders and wargear. The only squad in the whole offical GWHQ Codex-standard army that features the Mutation sprue (with some modelling done, I must admit. I like the green wavy arm man, myself) is the obvious posessed choice.
I know you wanted "long arguement" and that's not a bad stab at it. It's in the official Codex. The mutation sprue is best reserved for the largely mutated models. If I recall correctly, you said "The mutation sprue is not reserved for posessed, or else it wouldn't be included."
Under that same logic, the close combat weapons wouldn't be included if they could just have the mutations.

Uh...anything else...

I forget if I mentioned this above, but the Chosen come with Terminator models for Chaos. That is their own specific model. "Chosen Terminator with Flamer" will probably be on that respective blister, not "Chaos Terminator."


In the strictest of going-by-the-book, yes, these models are legal (Except that one with the plasma pistol and CCW. That's Chaos Armoury stuff, so he must mean plasma gun). They do have a CCW and a Pistol. However, as I stated above, when I see a mutation, for those who have read the Codex a lot, I take that as a posessed model. Chaos don't give gifts to just anyone, only the Elite. It all depends on how WYSIWYG your WYSIWYG really is.

Uh, I think that's everything now.

-Mykal

 

[FlashbackJon]

Faeruithir88

King Kento

yo_momma117

well, I guess hes quasi expert.
so whats better? mutation or chainsword?

Oh hell, its chaos. I think Mykal is wrong on this one, but he does have, plays, and knows the codex. His is an opinon, mine and flashbackjon's comments are opinions (that I think are right), either way, its chaos. Chaos is vague, which is the way its supposed to be.

Its a model game, have fun and try to be clear and stick to the rules, but at the same time dont limit yourself. An extreme example but there were once two guys arguing over whether a guy's trukk was red or burgundy and thus it did or didnt get its extra inch.

So you see how keeping mutations to Possessed squads or your Chosen/Aspiring Champions keeps the game running smoother and altogether more enjoyable.

In that it might save him from unsportsmanlike and unwarranted griefing* on the part of his opponent, yes.

The other, more reasonable solution to that is simply for his opponent to not be an asshat.

* It was going to say "rules-lawyering" but that requires a basis in the rules - this, on the other hand, is deliberately causing your opposing player grief for (a) enjoyment or (b) personal gain. You can pick whichever you prefer.