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 Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 6:55 am
rockmanx marysservant Hi! My name is Daniel and I am an Evangelist turned Catholic. I would like this thread to be for the purpose of me trying to show the truth to non-catholics through scripture (no bashing!). If you have any questions, please ask them to me, I will do my best to prove the rites, rituals, and beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church. Thank you! Except that the early followers were Catholic and there was only one denomination so they didn't need to worry about others, just people breaking away. Good for you Maryservant for coming back to Paul's original church. Sometimes the denomination is important if it has to do with the interpretation of the Bible. With the correct interpretation you will be better focused on what Jesus is really saying.
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 2:04 pm
Theopneustos Methusale ... However, I agree that Jack Chick is spewing some thick propaganda. It's glad to know I wasn't the only one who thought that was **** I laugh at how you called his propaganda, "thick." Haha! Like "stew," right? xd as I already said (in the post before his): NewAgeLink wow. that is some thick propaganda... it's like a stew you'd choke on, it's so thick.
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:06 pm
Dont catholics worship Mary or something..
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:23 am
loneangel19 Dont catholics worship Mary or something.. NOOOOOOO!!!!! You are very misinformed. Catholics do not worship Mary, in fact, the Roman Catholic Church condemns worshipping anything other than God in three persons; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We simply follow the command Jesus gave to his Church (physically John) "She is your Mother." And the prophecy Mary... well... um... prophecies, "All generations shall call me blessed."
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:33 am
The Statues in Catholic Churches do not go anywhere near the sin of idolatry. Protestants seem to delight in saying that we will bow down before the statues and pray, saying that this is idol worship. Surely you would not call a man with pictures of his departed wife in his wallet a pagan or idolotrist (i think that's the word razz ). He simply has the picture in memory of his wife. In the same way, a children's bible with pictures of Jesus and the Apostles would not be seen as idolatry (because it is not). (one more example, bear with me) And, finally, a protestant who holds a bible when praying is not seen as worshipping the bible, it is just an aid to prayer, such as perhaps a rosary, or a statue might be (remember, Catholics are not necessarily praying TO saints, we are conversing with them, so that they will pray for us). *takes deep breath* Please continue to ask questions, I would very much like to answer them, along with my Catholic friends. Thank you!
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:10 pm
marysservant The Statues in Catholic Churches do not go anywhere near the sin of idolatry. Protestants seem to delight in saying that we will bow down before the statues and pray, saying that this is idol worship. Surely you would not call a man with pictures of his departed wife in his wallet a pagan or idolotrist (i think that's the word razz ). He simply has the picture in memory of his wife. In the same way, a children's bible with pictures of Jesus and the Apostles would not be seen as idolatry (because it is not). (one more example, bear with me) And, finally, a protestant who holds a bible when praying is not seen as worshipping the bible, it is just an aid to prayer, such as perhaps a rosary, or a statue might be (remember, Catholics are not necessarily praying TO saints, we are conversing with them, so that they will pray for us). *takes deep breath* Please continue to ask questions, I would very much like to answer them, along with my Catholic friends. Thank you! However, the man who has a picture of his dead wife doesn't pray to her, does he?
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 8:47 pm
Theopneustos However, the man who has a picture of his dead wife doesn't pray to her, does he? He may, if he's Catholic. If he believes she has entered the kingdom of Heaven, then he believes she is a saint, and worth asking for intervention from. Remember, asking intervention is not the same as praying for a miracle from that saint. Saints do not perform miracles, God does it for them. A lot of Catholics misunderstand that.
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 9:30 pm
To all those that are Catholic, I would like to see your views on the dogma of Mary's Immaculate Conception.
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:01 pm
Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." Isaiah 66:7 Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Mary bore Jesus without pains of labor, God's punishment for the sins of women. She also remained a virgin, without desire for her husband.
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 10:51 pm
Arilavent Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." Isaiah 66:7 Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Mary bore Jesus without pains of labor, God's punishment for the sins of women. She also remained a virgin, without desire for her husband. NASB "Before she travailed, she brought forth; Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy. "Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons. "Shall I bring to the point of birth and not give delivery?" says the LORD. "Or shall I who gives delivery shut the womb?" says your God. Isa 66:7-9These passages do not speak about the prophecy of Jesus's birth nor does it hint about the Virgin Mary. You must read the passages around the verse... Isa 66:7 - Before she travailed, she brought forth,.... That is, Zion, as appears from the following verse: lest it should be thought that the interest of Christ would be swallowed up and lost in the destruction of the Jews, this, and what follows, are said concerning the conversion of many of that people, both in the first times of the Gospel, and in the latter day, as well as concerning the calling of the Gentiles, and the uniting of both in one church state. Zion, or the church of God, is here compared to a pregnant woman, that brings forth suddenly and easily, without feeling any pain, or going through any travail, or having any birth throes; at least, feeling very little pain and travail, and having very few pangs, and those, as soon as they come, are gone, and an immediate delivery ensues:
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:36 pm
Knotghlon Arilavent Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." Isaiah 66:7 Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a son. Mary bore Jesus without pains of labor, God's punishment for the sins of women. She also remained a virgin, without desire for her husband. NASB "Before she travailed, she brought forth; Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy. "Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Can a land be born in one day? Can a nation be brought forth all at once? As soon as Zion travailed, she also brought forth her sons. "Shall I bring to the point of birth and not give delivery?" says the LORD. "Or shall I who gives delivery shut the womb?" says your God. Isa 66:7-9These passages do not speak about the prophecy of Jesus's birth nor does it hint about the Virgin Mary. You must read the passages around the verse... Isa 66:7 - Before she travailed, she brought forth,.... That is, Zion, as appears from the following verse: lest it should be thought that the interest of Christ would be swallowed up and lost in the destruction of the Jews, this, and what follows, are said concerning the conversion of many of that people, both in the first times of the Gospel, and in the latter day, as well as concerning the calling of the Gentiles, and the uniting of both in one church state. Zion, or the church of God, is here compared to a pregnant woman, that brings forth suddenly and easily, without feeling any pain, or going through any travail, or having any birth throes; at least, feeling very little pain and travail, and having very few pangs, and those, as soon as they come, are gone, and an immediate delivery ensues: I'm sure you're not going to like my reason for accepting it in duality, but I'll present it anyway. The way the Hebrews wrote scripture, it was full of parallelism. Joseph had 12 brothers, Jesus had 12 disciples, Melchizedek offered bread and wine like Jesus, etc. It's a common feature in any holy writing. I believe there is a parallelism between Isaiah 66:7 and the Virgin Mary. I dont see any reason why it would be necessary for it to mention the birth of a boy unless it was also alluding to the birth of the Savior. If that's not good enough, here's the best website you'll find for the answer. http://www.catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:06 pm
Arilavent He may, if he's Catholic. If he believes she has entered the kingdom of Heaven, then he believes she is a saint, and worth asking for intervention from. 1. Is praying to dead persons for Catholics only? 2. What if that's what he believes, but she's not in heaven?
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:21 pm
Theopneustos marysservant The Statues in Catholic Churches do not go anywhere near the sin of idolatry. Protestants seem to delight in saying that we will bow down before the statues and pray, saying that this is idol worship. Surely you would not call a man with pictures of his departed wife in his wallet a pagan or idolotrist (i think that's the word razz ). He simply has the picture in memory of his wife. In the same way, a children's bible with pictures of Jesus and the Apostles would not be seen as idolatry (because it is not). (one more example, bear with me) And, finally, a protestant who holds a bible when praying is not seen as worshipping the bible, it is just an aid to prayer, such as perhaps a rosary, or a statue might be (remember, Catholics are not necessarily praying TO saints, we are conversing with them, so that they will pray for us). *takes deep breath* Please continue to ask questions, I would very much like to answer them, along with my Catholic friends. Thank you! However, the man who has a picture of his dead wife doesn't pray to her, does he? Well, the Catholic church believes that even the dead are still part of the church, so we can "converse" with them, it isn't really praying, not anything like praying to the trinity. And to answer your question, I know of a lot of people who would talk to their dead spouses (brothers, sisters, etc.) while holding a picture of them, or kneeling before their grave.
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:27 pm
It sounds like necromancy to me.
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:27 pm
Theopneustos Arilavent He may, if he's Catholic. If he believes she has entered the kingdom of Heaven, then he believes she is a saint, and worth asking for intervention from. 1. Is praying to dead persons for Catholics only? 2. What if that's what he believes, but she's not in heaven? Well, correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but is that why we usually pray to saints? Because they ARE in heaven? I'm not sure...
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