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 Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:11 am
Revolution idea. Goldenlici Here's what I believe about your question, again forgive me if this point has already been made, the time for Jesus to physically manifest himself has passed for now. The old testiment prophesied about a messiah who would be God in flesh, but before that time, the very idea of something like that was as amazing as Jesus not appearing to us today. Back then, they truly believed that God would only manifest himself inside the temple at Jerusalem at that only one man could ever see Him and only on one day a year and then only one day in that man's entire life, so the idea of God actually appearing to everyday people was absolutely unbelievable. The forty days in which Jesus appeared to man after His resurection was a means of changing the mindset of Yaweh's (or Jehova's) followers. It was a revolutionary idea that needed some time to be established in the minds of God's followers. But, once the idea was established, it did not need to be reinforced. You said, even if just for argument's sake, that God manifested himself to people, thus you believe, if just for arguments sake, that it is possible. Therefore, you are proving my point. The people of this age do not need another revolution to believe it is possible for God to personally communicate with ordinary people. Once God had established the idea, He had to stop before he encroached upon free will. As to Paul being forced to convert because of a manifestation of God, you have to read a little bit more into the character of "Saul." He was an avid follower of the Jewish culture, but because the religion had not, and still has not, accepted Jesus as the Messiah they were waiting for, he merely did whatever he thought was best for "God's people" the Jewish nation. However, when he discovered the truth about Jesus, that He was not in conflict with his belief, but the fullfillment of the Jewish religion. Saul did not convert because God manifested himself and prove Himself God. Saul already believed in God. Quote: Did Paul have to look for Him? Saul was seeking to serve God. Saul just needed to know the truth about God that his religious leaders were hiding from him. Today, it is no secret that Jesus was the Messiah because Jesus used his forty days after resurection to ensure that the truth would be readily available to everyone seeking it. Lethkar I need another revolution. Does America need another Revolution? Before you jump to answer this, let me explain. During the first American Revolution, the people entirely changed the way the government operated and the structure of the government. Do we need to change some of the people in the government? Oh yeah. Do we need to change the structure of the government? I don't believe so. The idea of a Republic was a new concept during the time, as was God communicating with the common man. When other countries started to follow America's example and started overthrowing their own currupt governments, they were following America's example, and forming similar governments. Once the idea was established, and seen to work, it did not need to happen again.
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:35 am
Lethkhar Goldenlici What happened to your post? No idea. sweatdrop Quote: John 14:14 The context of this verse is asking in the form of prayers. A prayer is a call out to God for something. Jesus said God will answer all or our prayers, but again, it may not be the answer we are looking for. Again, I give the example of my "magical" coffee mug. Or have I not presented that one to you? ... Haven't heard that one yet? ... Sounds intriguing. confused Quote: Matthew 18:19 The context of this verse is what a Christian is to do when a conflict arises between other Christians. Jesus says that if you get two or more Christians involved in a situation, God will come into that situation personally and show the way that situation should be dealt with. It is also fair to mention that this is the last mentioned option available. So I guess God supported and influenced the mass burning of Protestants in England when Queen Mary I reestablished Roman Catholicism? If God is said to be in the midst of any dispute between Christians, that makes Him even more of a monster than He already is. I said God was there; never said people had to listen to Him. But, He does promise that He will be there for anyone who will listen. Quote: If you ask your parents for a particular CD for Christmas, does that mean that is the gift you are going to get? God gives us what we need not what we want, thank goodness. Well, it usually does. In fact, around about November they start bugging me about what I want and I have to remind them that I'm pretty much good with what I've got already. The past two years I've raised about $500 in charity by declining Christmas presents. I plan to do it again this year, though I might also ask for a new amp, which chances are I'll get in one way or another. My parents bug me too, but that doesn't mean they get me what I ask, not that I really care. I applaud you for giving up christmas presents, that's so amazing. For my family, Christmas is a big thing because it is the only time we do stuff together. Gifts may seem selfish to some people (maybe not you), but to our family it lets us communicate, which is not very easy for us. Not trying to downsize your sacrifice at all, just saying that some people have different ways of sacrificing things. Anyway, my point is, at Christmas, we try to get each other what we think the other person really needs or wants, not what they ask for. I could also, again, present the argument of my "magical" coffee mug, but I think my point is made. If I got whatever I wanted in prayer, I don't think I'd exercise such an ability too selfishly. I never said you get whatever you pray for. I said God will answer your prayers the way you want. If you pray for a million dollars, God may say, "No, you don't need a million dollars, but I will show you how to use what you have."
There are plenty of christians, if not most christians, who pray everyday for the well-being of others. For the few people who only pray for what they themselves want, may not actually be Christians. There are plenty of Christian organizations that are devoted solely to helping others. Please don't accuse Christians of being selfish, just because they pray for themselves, too.
Quote: I'll give you an example in my own life (I know it's silly, but it's just a metaphor.). When I was a little kid, my dad refused to let us have a pet of any kind, including fish. I always looked at all my cousins who had pets and was slightly jealous. For years, I prayed for God to let us get a pet, but nothing. I was still a kid, so I literally thought Matthew 7:7 said you get whatever you want. Eventually, I came to terms with the fact that I could not have a pet at that point in my life. Then, years later, when I had given up, I get a phone call from my parents asking if I wanted a dog. I was shocked. For years, I had not even thought about even just asking for a pet. In the long run, I am glad I didn't get a pet when I was younger because it would have probably died when I was still young. Also, we ended up moving soon after I gave up on the idea of a pet, so we would have had to give up the pet if we did have it. I didn't know that we were going to move when I wanted a pet, but God did. He gave me what I wanted when I needed it, not when I wanted it.
Or maybe your parents knew that you were going to move?
Not at all. We moved very quickly and without warning. My dad's company went on strike and within 3 months we were living in a different state.
Coffee mug, again.
Again, haven't heard that one yet.
Quote: Quote: Well, most of those were a case of the person growing up with those teachings. But, before Jesus's appearance, there were no families who believed who could train their children. That is my point. Jesus needed to created that base group of people to teach others, then they could teach others. That was my point with the revolution thing. Did you go back and read it or do you want me to repost it here?
Please repost it.
So he tampered witht he free wills of all the "teachers".
Quote: Quote: Sorry, I meant that it won't hurt them any more than it already will for God to prove His evidence if they still won't believe. If they still won't believe, then wouldn't God know that.
He should, He's omniscient. confused
Quote: Quote: The fact that I can see a lightbulb? I know, that is my point. The lightbulbs we see today are just byproducts of the first lightbulb. The first lightbulb doesn't exist. Christians are the byproducts of the first invention of Christianity. God is the inventor, Jesus like the original light bulb. Do you need to see the original light bulb to believe in light bulbs?
Nope.
I believe in the existence of Christians, just like I believe in the existence of light bulbs.
Very well, do you believe in the inventor of the light bulb? Or, even furthur back, do you believe in the inventor of .... clay sweatdrop Lame, but I needed something from a long time ago.
I also believe in the existence of the original lightbulb because I can see the original light bulb as well:
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 9:56 am
Quote: Quote: John 14:14 The context of this verse is asking in the form of prayers. A prayer is a call out to God for something. Jesus said God will answer all or our prayers, but again, it may not be the answer we are looking for. Again, I give the example of my "magical" coffee mug. Or have I not presented that one to you? ... Haven't heard that one yet? ... Sounds intriguing. confused I'm going to show you a psychological illusion: Let's imagine that one day you have a big problem, and you pray to God for a solution. However, God does not answer your prayer. There is no response at all. You are disappointed, perhaps angry, and you do not understand what went wrong. If you talk to another Christian or look on the web and ask, "Why didn't God answer my prayer?" you will hear a response like this: "We have to trust that He knows what’s best. God answers prayers in the form of 'yes', 'no' and 'wait'. Sometimes the hardest answer to accept is 'wait'. It’s difficult to be left in limbo, wondering how God will handle our problem, but we must have faith that He will!" - Christianity.com 'Yes', 'No' and 'Wait'. That is how God answers prayers. You have probably heard this a thousand times, and you believe it completely. 'Yes', 'No' and 'Wait' may sound comforting, but here is the thing that I would like to help you understand. 'Yes', 'No' and 'Wait' is actually an optical illusion. Let me show you how this illusion works. Imagine that I put a coffee mug on the counter, and I say to you, "Pray to the coffee mug." I tell you that if you pray to the coffee mug, it will answer all your prayers. You are skeptical, but you agree to try it. You pray to the coffee mug to give you $1,000. Now I say to you, "The coffee mug answers prayers in the form of 'yes', 'no' and 'wait'. Let's see what happens." What is going to happen? There are three scenarios: Scenario 1: Out of the blue, a check for $1,100 arrives in the mail tomorrow. It is an unexpected tax refund check from the IRS. I say to you, "See! The coffee mug answered your prayer!" Scenario 2: Seven weeks later, out of the blue, you get a cost-of-living raise and it happens to increase your salary by $1,200 per year. I say to you, "See! The coffee mug answered your prayer! You just had to wait patiently." Scenario 3: Nothing happens for six months. You ask me, "Why?" I say, "We have to trust that the coffee mug knows what’s best. Let's be patient." Look at what happened: In scenarios 1 and 2, the coffee mug really did answer your prayers. And in scenario 3 we are waiting for it to answer your prayer, knowing that it is doing what is best for you. Now let me ask you: Will you get down on your knees and worship this coffee mug? Probably not. But why not? You won't worship the coffee mug because you know it didn't do anything. The coffee mug did not "answer" your "prayer". The coffee mug did not cause you to get a raise or get a check in the mail. Did the coffee mug do anything at all? No. Absolutely not. You know that. We both know that. It was nothing more than a coincidence. When you pray to a coffee mug, any answered prayer is nothing more than a coincidence. That is obvious to any intelligent person. If the criteria is 'Yes', 'No' and 'Wait' it appears that the coffee mug answers EVERY prayer. But we both know that the coffee mug did nothing. If you are a smart person, you may be starting to see the illusion of prayer: "God answers prayers in the form of 'yes', 'no' and 'wait'." - Christianity.com "The coffee mug answers prayers in the form of 'yes', 'no' and 'wait'." - me "We have to trust that God knows what’s best." - Christianity.com "We have to trust that the coffee mug knows what’s best." - me When Christians say "God answers prayers in the form of 'yes', 'no' and 'wait', it is impossible to lose: - The thing you pray for might coincidentally happen the next day. - Or it might coincidentally happen a week or a month or a year later. - Or it might never happen. 'Yes', 'no' and 'wait' is ALWAYS true, no matter what. It is even true if you pray to a coffee mug. Or a stone idol. Or the planet Jupiter. 'Yes', 'no' and 'wait' is true no matter what you pray to. As a Christian, you have believed that God is answering your prayers. But all that you are seeing is an illusion. The illusion is created by coincidence and the 'yes', 'no' and 'wait' mentality. Since you are a smart person, you should be able to see this now. If we say "God answers prayers in the form of 'yes', 'no' and 'wait'," God can't lose. But in reality, "God" is no different than a coffee mug. The coffee mug can't lose either. That is the illusion. Quote: Quote: Matthew 18:19 The context of this verse is what a Christian is to do when a conflict arises between other Christians. Jesus says that if you get two or more Christians involved in a situation, God will come into that situation personally and show the way that situation should be dealt with. It is also fair to mention that this is the last mentioned option available. So I guess God supported and influenced the mass burning of Protestants in England when Queen Mary I reestablished Roman Catholicism? If God is said to be in the midst of any dispute between Christians, that makes Him even more of a monster than He already is. I said God was there; never said people had to listen to Him. But, He does promise that He will be there for anyone who will listen. Queen Mary I was very devout. I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't hear anything from God. Quote: Quote: If you ask your parents for a particular CD for Christmas, does that mean that is the gift you are going to get? God gives us what we need not what we want, thank goodness. Well, it usually does. In fact, around about November they start bugging me about what I want and I have to remind them that I'm pretty much good with what I've got already. The past two years I've raised about $500 in charity by declining Christmas presents. I plan to do it again this year, though I might also ask for a new amp, which chances are I'll get in one way or another. My parents bug me too, but that doesn't mean they get me what I ask, not that I really care. I applaud you for giving up christmas presents, that's so amazing. For my family, Christmas is a big thing because it is the only time we do stuff together. Gifts may seem selfish to some people (maybe not you), but to our family it lets us communicate, which is not very easy for us. Not trying to downsize your sacrifice at all, just saying that some people have different ways of sacrificing things. Anyway, my point is, at Christmas, we try to get each other what we think the other person really needs or wants, not what they ask for. Well, God already knows you, so He doesn't have to guess about what you want. confused Quote: I could also, again, present the argument of my "magical" coffee mug, but I think my point is made. If I got whatever I wanted in prayer, I don't think I'd exercise such an ability too selfishly. I never said you get whatever you pray for. I said God will answer your prayers the way you want. If you pray for a million dollars, God may say, "No, you don't need a million dollars, but I will show you how to use what you have."
There are plenty of christians, if not most christians, who pray everyday for the well-being of others. For the few people who only pray for what they themselves want, may not actually be Christians. There are plenty of Christian organizations that are devoted solely to helping others. Please don't accuse Christians of being selfish, just because they pray for themselves, too. It never crossed my mind that Christians are selfish, though I think that many become Christians for selfish reasons. But my point is that prayer does nothing. Quote: Quote: I'll give you an example in my own life (I know it's silly, but it's just a metaphor.). When I was a little kid, my dad refused to let us have a pet of any kind, including fish. I always looked at all my cousins who had pets and was slightly jealous. For years, I prayed for God to let us get a pet, but nothing. I was still a kid, so I literally thought Matthew 7:7 said you get whatever you want. Eventually, I came to terms with the fact that I could not have a pet at that point in my life. Then, years later, when I had given up, I get a phone call from my parents asking if I wanted a dog. I was shocked. For years, I had not even thought about even just asking for a pet. In the long run, I am glad I didn't get a pet when I was younger because it would have probably died when I was still young. Also, we ended up moving soon after I gave up on the idea of a pet, so we would have had to give up the pet if we did have it. I didn't know that we were going to move when I wanted a pet, but God did. He gave me what I wanted when I needed it, not when I wanted it. Or maybe your parents knew that you were going to move? Not at all. We moved very quickly and without warning. My dad's company went on strike and within 3 months we were living in a different state. And why wouldn't you be able to bring a dog? Were you going to live in an apartment or something? Quote: Quote: Quote: Well, most of those were a case of the person growing up with those teachings. But, before Jesus's appearance, there were no families who believed who could train their children. That is my point. Jesus needed to created that base group of people to teach others, then they could teach others. That was my point with the revolution thing. Did you go back and read it or do you want me to repost it here? Please repost it. So he tampered witht he free wills of all the "teachers". Quote: Quote: Sorry, I meant that it won't hurt them any more than it already will for God to prove His evidence if they still won't believe. If they still won't believe, then wouldn't God know that. He should, He's omniscient. confused Please don't leave me hanging! wink Quote: Quote: Quote: The fact that I can see a lightbulb? I know, that is my point. The lightbulbs we see today are just byproducts of the first lightbulb. The first lightbulb doesn't exist. Christians are the byproducts of the first invention of Christianity. God is the inventor, Jesus like the original light bulb. Do you need to see the original light bulb to believe in light bulbs? Nope. I believe in the existence of Christians, just like I believe in the existence of light bulbs. Very well, do you believe in the inventor of the light bulb? Or, even furthur back, do you believe in the inventor of .... clay sweatdrop Lame, but I needed something from a long time ago.Yes, I believe in Thomas Edison. He's a very well-documented character who also had pictures taken of him. Do I need to show you a picture of Thomas Edison? Clay is a type of rock. As far as I know, no one invented it.
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 10:03 am
Goldenlici Revolution idea. Goldenlici Here's what I believe about your question, again forgive me if this point has already been made, the time for Jesus to physically manifest himself has passed for now. The old testiment prophesied about a messiah who would be God in flesh, but before that time, the very idea of something like that was as amazing as Jesus not appearing to us today. Back then, they truly believed that God would only manifest himself inside the temple at Jerusalem at that only one man could ever see Him and only on one day a year and then only one day in that man's entire life, so the idea of God actually appearing to everyday people was absolutely unbelievable. The forty days in which Jesus appeared to man after His resurection was a means of changing the mindset of Yaweh's (or Jehova's) followers. It was a revolutionary idea that needed some time to be established in the minds of God's followers. But, once the idea was established, it did not need to be reinforced. You said, even if just for argument's sake, that God manifested himself to people, thus you believe, if just for arguments sake, that it is possible. Therefore, you are proving my point. The people of this age do not need another revolution to believe it is possible for God to personally communicate with ordinary people. Once God had established the idea, He had to stop before he encroached upon free will. As to Paul being forced to convert because of a manifestation of God, you have to read a little bit more into the character of "Saul." He was an avid follower of the Jewish culture, but because the religion had not, and still has not, accepted Jesus as the Messiah they were waiting for, he merely did whatever he thought was best for "God's people" the Jewish nation. However, when he discovered the truth about Jesus, that He was not in conflict with his belief, but the fullfillment of the Jewish religion. Saul did not convert because God manifested himself and prove Himself God. Saul already believed in God. Quote: Did Paul have to look for Him? Saul was seeking to serve God. Saul just needed to know the truth about God that his religious leaders were hiding from him. Today, it is no secret that Jesus was the Messiah because Jesus used his forty days after resurection to ensure that the truth would be readily available to everyone seeking it. Lethkar I need another revolution. Does America need another Revolution? Before you jump to answer this, let me explain. During the first American Revolution, the people entirely changed the way the government operated and the structure of the government. Do we need to change some of the people in the government? Oh yeah. Do we need to change the structure of the government? I don't believe so. The idea of a Republic was a new concept during the time, as was God communicating with the common man. When other countries started to follow America's example and started overthrowing their own currupt governments, they were following America's example, and forming similar governments. Once the idea was established, and seen to work, it did not need to happen again. I disagree. The U.S. system of government is silly. It's hardly a Republic, much less a democracy. All you have to do is look at how our president is elected to understand that. The electoral college has to go, for one. Our president is elected by a group of rich, appointed, white men. I think that's wrong. Sue me. talk2hand I think a monarchy in heaven is tyranny. Why don't we have a republic there?
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:03 pm
Lethkhar Goldenlici Revolution idea. Goldenlici Here's what I believe about your question, again forgive me if this point has already been made, the time for Jesus to physically manifest himself has passed for now. The old testiment prophesied about a messiah who would be God in flesh, but before that time, the very idea of something like that was as amazing as Jesus not appearing to us today. Back then, they truly believed that God would only manifest himself inside the temple at Jerusalem at that only one man could ever see Him and only on one day a year and then only one day in that man's entire life, so the idea of God actually appearing to everyday people was absolutely unbelievable. The forty days in which Jesus appeared to man after His resurection was a means of changing the mindset of Yaweh's (or Jehova's) followers. It was a revolutionary idea that needed some time to be established in the minds of God's followers. But, once the idea was established, it did not need to be reinforced. You said, even if just for argument's sake, that God manifested himself to people, thus you believe, if just for arguments sake, that it is possible. Therefore, you are proving my point. The people of this age do not need another revolution to believe it is possible for God to personally communicate with ordinary people. Once God had established the idea, He had to stop before he encroached upon free will. As to Paul being forced to convert because of a manifestation of God, you have to read a little bit more into the character of "Saul." He was an avid follower of the Jewish culture, but because the religion had not, and still has not, accepted Jesus as the Messiah they were waiting for, he merely did whatever he thought was best for "God's people" the Jewish nation. However, when he discovered the truth about Jesus, that He was not in conflict with his belief, but the fullfillment of the Jewish religion. Saul did not convert because God manifested himself and prove Himself God. Saul already believed in God. Quote: Did Paul have to look for Him? Saul was seeking to serve God. Saul just needed to know the truth about God that his religious leaders were hiding from him. Today, it is no secret that Jesus was the Messiah because Jesus used his forty days after resurection to ensure that the truth would be readily available to everyone seeking it. Lethkar I need another revolution. Does America need another Revolution? Before you jump to answer this, let me explain. During the first American Revolution, the people entirely changed the way the government operated and the structure of the government. Do we need to change some of the people in the government? Oh yeah. Do we need to change the structure of the government? I don't believe so. The idea of a Republic was a new concept during the time, as was God communicating with the common man. When other countries started to follow America's example and started overthrowing their own currupt governments, they were following America's example, and forming similar governments. Once the idea was established, and seen to work, it did not need to happen again. I disagree. The U.S. system of government is silly. It's hardly a Republic, much less a democracy. All you have to do is look at how our president is elected to understand that. The electoral college has to go, for one. Our president is elected by a group of rich, appointed, white men. I think that's wrong. Sue me. talk2hand I think a monarchy in heaven is tyranny. Why don't we have a republic there? Meh, we already argued this one in full, I was just restating it.
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:31 pm
Re: Magic Coffee Mug I suppose if you believe in the whole "yes," "no," and "wait" thing, you have a good argument. I never believed that. I have never even heard that. I don't doubt that some people say that, but as you said, that ... theory, idea, answer, thing, has some problems. I have heard God answer me as plain as day sometimes. I am always alert for an answer to my prayers, because I know God never answers with just one word. I have never heard the answer "yes," "no," or "wait." Sorry to get a little preachy, but I just want to say that I personally believe that prayer is not just a question but a conversation with God. However, that is a whole different topic.
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:42 pm
Quote: Queen Mary I was very devout. I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't hear anything from God. There were some very devote Jews in Jesus's time, but they did not want to listen to what the Bible had to say about the Messiah. The Bible said that the Messiah would be persecuted, but the Jews did not want a Messiah who would be weak, they wanted a conquering king who would get them out of Roman control. There are people very "devoted" to their religion, who will still only believe what they want to believe. Quote: Well, God already knows you, so He doesn't have to guess about what you want. Um ... yeah, sweatdrop I think I missed the point. Quote: And why wouldn't you be able to bring a dog? Were you going to live in an apartment or something? Yeah, first we traveled in an R.V. for a week, then lived in an apartment provided by my dad's new company for about 4 or 5 months. Quote: Please don't leave me hanging! Yes, he should know that, which is why He shouldn't show himself to them. Quote: Yes, I believe in Thomas Edison. He's a very well-documented character who also had pictures taken of him. Do I need to show you a picture of Thomas Edison? Jesus is also pretty well-documented, that doesn't mean you have to believe He is the messiah. Quote: Clay is a type of rock. As far as I know, no one invented it. Fine, what's another really old invention .... um .... well .... the compass. Do you believe someone invented the compass?
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:15 pm
Goldenlici Quote: Queen Mary I was very devout. I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't hear anything from God. There were some very devote Jews in Jesus's time, but they did not want to listen to what the Bible had to say about the Messiah. The Bible said that the Messiah would be persecuted, but the Jews did not want a Messiah who would be weak, they wanted a conquering king who would get them out of Roman control. There are people very "devoted" to their religion, who will still only believe what they want to believe. *Shrugs* God did not appear before any of the right people, apparently. Quote: Quote: Well, God already knows you, so He doesn't have to guess about what you want. Um ... yeah, sweatdrop I think I missed the point. Why even bother praying if He already knows what you want and won't listen to what you ask Him for anyway? Quote: Quote: And why wouldn't you be able to bring a dog? Were you going to live in an apartment or something? Yeah, first we traveled in an R.V. for a week, then lived in an apartment provided by my dad's new company for about 4 or 5 months. So you were blessed by being denied what you wanted in the first place? Quote: Quote: Please don't leave me hanging! Yes, he should know that, which is why He shouldn't show himself to them. But obviously not everyone He doesn't show Himself to wouldn't believe it. I met a man on the bus the other day who was basically completely guided by his dreams, and he saw no reason to believe in an organised religion like Christianity without having a dream about it. He was kind of odd...Nice guy, but odd... Quote: Quote: Yes, I believe in Thomas Edison. He's a very well-documented character who also had pictures taken of him. Do I need to show you a picture of Thomas Edison? Jesus is also pretty well-documented, that doesn't mean you have to believe He is the messiah. Jesus is not really as well-documented as believed. There is a (probably fictional) book about him, and that's about it. But I won't argue the existence of an historical character called Jesus. I think it's an irrelevant and rather silly argument. I will, however, argue the existence of God. Quote: Quote: Clay is a type of rock. As far as I know, no one invented it. Fine, what's another really old invention .... um .... well .... the compass. Do you believe someone invented the compass? Of course. How else would compasses exist if they had not been invented?
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:18 pm
Goldenlici Re: Magic Coffee Mug I suppose if you believe in the whole "yes," "no," and "wait" thing, you have a good argument. I never believed that. I have never even heard that. I don't doubt that some people say that, but as you said, that ... theory, idea, answer, thing, has some problems. I have heard God answer me as plain as day sometimes. I am always alert for an answer to my prayers, because I know God never answers with just one word. I have never heard the answer "yes," "no," or "wait." Sorry to get a little preachy, but I just want to say that I personally believe that prayer is not just a question but a conversation with God. However, that is a whole different topic. Actually, what you have thus described to me is essentially the same: God answers with a "yes". You've admitted to this. God answers with a "no". You've admitted to God choosing what's best for you rather than what you want. God answers with a "wait". Your dog story outlined this perfectly. Please, show me that I'm wrong.
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:26 pm
Lethkhar Goldenlici Re: Magic Coffee Mug I suppose if you believe in the whole "yes," "no," and "wait" thing, you have a good argument. I never believed that. I have never even heard that. I don't doubt that some people say that, but as you said, that ... theory, idea, answer, thing, has some problems. I have heard God answer me as plain as day sometimes. I am always alert for an answer to my prayers, because I know God never answers with just one word. I have never heard the answer "yes," "no," or "wait." Sorry to get a little preachy, but I just want to say that I personally believe that prayer is not just a question but a conversation with God. However, that is a whole different topic. Actually, what you have thus described to me is essentially the same: God answers with a "yes". You've admitted to this. God answers with a "no". You've admitted to God choosing what's best for you rather than what you want. God answers with a "wait". Your dog story outlined this perfectly. Please, show me that I'm wrong. .... Fine, I'll give you some examples of how my prayers have been answered. They are probably silly to you and you won't want to believe they happened, but here they are. 1. I already told you about the whole car drive prayer answered by a song on the radio. 2. One day, at the beginning of summer, I started really stressing about how I was going to pay for college, and prayed about it right before I went to bed. I always pray and read a few scriptures before bed, so I leave my bible open on the floor of my room. After I had finished praying, I looked down to the page my Bible was opened to and the first verse I saw was Proverbs 28: 20. Proverbs 28:20 A faithful man will abound with blessings, But he who hastens to be rich will not go unfinished. 3. Just a few days ago, when we were talking about hell and why it is necessary and this topic as well, I was praying about what I should say. I again, looked down at my bible and it was opened to Luke 16: 19, the story titled the rich man and Lazarus. I remeber just that day how I talked about Luke 16: 13 in a post to you. That story really helped encourage me. (You should read it, it basically is the Bible's answer to this very question.) 4. Yesterday, I had to work a 9 hour day (8 hours plus 30 min travel there and back), as opposed to the 4 hours I usually work (I only work part-time). I was really stressed out because the shift started pretty early and I would have to be there all day, so I prayed that God would help me deal with it. Before I went to work, I got a call from my boss asking me if I could work a later shift at a different location. The new location was only 3 minutes from my house and I was able to go home and relax for my break. 5. About a week ago, I had been thinking about going to the guild prayer request board and ask for prayer about college. I had finally decided to go there, and when I did, I noticed someone was praying for the exact same thing. Not only was I able to get some prayer, but talk to someone who knew how I feel and offer me some encouragement.
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:34 pm
Goldenlici Lethkhar Goldenlici Re: Magic Coffee Mug I suppose if you believe in the whole "yes," "no," and "wait" thing, you have a good argument. I never believed that. I have never even heard that. I don't doubt that some people say that, but as you said, that ... theory, idea, answer, thing, has some problems. I have heard God answer me as plain as day sometimes. I am always alert for an answer to my prayers, because I know God never answers with just one word. I have never heard the answer "yes," "no," or "wait." Sorry to get a little preachy, but I just want to say that I personally believe that prayer is not just a question but a conversation with God. However, that is a whole different topic. Actually, what you have thus described to me is essentially the same: God answers with a "yes". You've admitted to this. God answers with a "no". You've admitted to God choosing what's best for you rather than what you want. God answers with a "wait". Your dog story outlined this perfectly. Please, show me that I'm wrong. .... Fine, I'll give you some examples of how my prayers have been answered. They are probably silly to you and you won't want to believe they happened, but here they are. 1. I already told you about the whole car drive prayer answered by a song on the radio. Yes. Quote: 2. One day, at the beginning of summer, I started really stressing about how I was going to pay for college, and prayed about it right before I went to bed. I always pray and read a few scriptures before bed, so I leave my bible open on the floor of my room. After I had finished praying, I looked down to the page my Bible was opened to and the first verse I saw was Proverbs 28: 20. Proverbs 28:20 A faithful man will abound with blessings, But he who hastens to be rich will not go unfinished. ...I don't really understand that verse. A faithful man will abound with blessings...I got that. But he who hastens to be rich...Got that. ...will not go unfinished...What? Go where? Unfinished with what? Quote: 3. Just a few days ago, when we were talking about hell and why it is necessary and this topic as well, I was praying about what I should say. I again, looked down at my bible and it was opened to Luke 16: 19, the story titled the rich man and Lazarus. I remeber just that day how I talked about Luke 16: 13 in a post to you. That story really helped encourage me. (You should read it, it basically is the Bible's answer to this very question.) Believe it or not, I've read the Bible. Yes. Quote: 4. Yesterday, I had to work a 9 hour day (8 hours plus 30 min travel there and back), as opposed to the 4 hours I usually work (I only work part-time). I was really stressed out because the shift started pretty early and I would have to be there all day, so I prayed that God would help me deal with it. Before I went to work, I got a call from my boss asking me if I could work a later shift at a different location. The new location was only 3 minutes from my house and I was able to go home and relax for my break. Yes. Quote: 5. About a week ago, I had been thinking about going to the guild prayer request board and ask for prayer about college. I had finally decided to go there, and when I did, I noticed someone was praying for the exact same thing. Not only was I able to get some prayer, but talk to someone who knew how I feel and offer me some encouragement. Yes. And your dog story was a "wait".
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:37 pm
Lethkhar Goldenlici Quote: Queen Mary I was very devout. I find it hard to believe that she wouldn't hear anything from God. There were some very devote Jews in Jesus's time, but they did not want to listen to what the Bible had to say about the Messiah. The Bible said that the Messiah would be persecuted, but the Jews did not want a Messiah who would be weak, they wanted a conquering king who would get them out of Roman control. There are people very "devoted" to their religion, who will still only believe what they want to believe. *Shrugs* God did not appear before any of the right people, apparently. There are plenty of Jews who did believe, my only point was that people who call themselves "devoted" can still be faking. Quote: Quote: Well, God already knows you, so He doesn't have to guess about what you want. Um ... yeah, sweatdrop I think I missed the point. Why even bother praying if He already knows what you want and won't listen to what you ask Him for anyway? God can speak to you through your own words. Sometimes, I find myself praying for things I hadn't even thought of until I said them. Looking into yourself and finding out for yourself what you want to ask God about is a very important part of prayer. True, God knows everything you need and want. Prayer isn't for God; it is for us. True, God will answer the prayers of the faithful, but He doesn't need them to do great things. Quote: Quote: And why wouldn't you be able to bring a dog? Were you going to live in an apartment or something? Yeah, first we traveled in an R.V. for a week, then lived in an apartment provided by my dad's new company for about 4 or 5 months. So you were blessed by being denied what you wanted in the first place? I guess that's one way of putting it. Yes, I was blessed because I didn't get what I wanted, but what I needed. Quote: Quote: Please don't leave me hanging! Yes, he should know that, which is why He shouldn't show himself to them. But obviously not everyone He doesn't show Himself to wouldn't believe it. Too many "not" words in there. So ... wait, what? Are you saying, people who don't see God ... I lost it. Can you say that without all the "not"s?I met a man on the bus the other day who was basically completely guided by his dreams, and he saw no reason to believe in an organised religion like Christianity without having a dream about it. That is an interesting belief. As you already know, I do believe in a personal belief system outside of a "church," but I still believe in a guiding ... idea. Christianity has very definite rules and guidelines, but you have to discover them for yourself. I don't know enough about this guy to say anything about him. He was kind of odd...Nice guy, but odd... Quote: Quote: Yes, I believe in Thomas Edison. He's a very well-documented character who also had pictures taken of him. Do I need to show you a picture of Thomas Edison? Jesus is also pretty well-documented, that doesn't mean you have to believe He is the messiah. Jesus is not really as well-documented as believed. There is a (probably fictional) book about him, and that's about it. But I won't argue the existence of an historical character called Jesus. I think it's an irrelevant and rather silly argument. I will, however, argue the existence of God. Quote: Quote: Clay is a type of rock. As far as I know, no one invented it. Fine, what's another really old invention .... um .... well .... the compass. Do you believe someone invented the compass? Of course. How else would compasses exist if they had not been invented? How else would a man exist if he had not been created?
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Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2007 11:43 pm
Lethkhar Goldenlici Lethkhar Goldenlici Re: Magic Coffee Mug I suppose if you believe in the whole "yes," "no," and "wait" thing, you have a good argument. I never believed that. I have never even heard that. I don't doubt that some people say that, but as you said, that ... theory, idea, answer, thing, has some problems. I have heard God answer me as plain as day sometimes. I am always alert for an answer to my prayers, because I know God never answers with just one word. I have never heard the answer "yes," "no," or "wait." Sorry to get a little preachy, but I just want to say that I personally believe that prayer is not just a question but a conversation with God. However, that is a whole different topic. Actually, what you have thus described to me is essentially the same: God answers with a "yes". You've admitted to this. God answers with a "no". You've admitted to God choosing what's best for you rather than what you want. God answers with a "wait". Your dog story outlined this perfectly. Please, show me that I'm wrong. .... Fine, I'll give you some examples of how my prayers have been answered. They are probably silly to you and you won't want to believe they happened, but here they are. 1. I already told you about the whole car drive prayer answered by a song on the radio. Yes. Quote: 2. One day, at the beginning of summer, I started really stressing about how I was going to pay for college, and prayed about it right before I went to bed. I always pray and read a few scriptures before bed, so I leave my bible open on the floor of my room. After I had finished praying, I looked down to the page my Bible was opened to and the first verse I saw was Proverbs 28: 20. Proverbs 28:20 A faithful man will abound with blessings, But he who hastens to be rich will not go unfinished. ...I don't really understand that verse. A faithful man will abound with blessings...I got that. But he who hastens to be rich...Got that. ...will not go unfinished...What? Go where? Unfinished with what? Sorry, mistype on my part. It is unpunished. sweatdrop Quote: 3. Just a few days ago, when we were talking about hell and why it is necessary and this topic as well, I was praying about what I should say. I again, looked down at my bible and it was opened to Luke 16: 19, the story titled the rich man and Lazarus. I remeber just that day how I talked about Luke 16: 13 in a post to you. That story really helped encourage me. (You should read it, it basically is the Bible's answer to this very question.) Believe it or not, I've read the Bible. I never said you didn't, just that this particualr story is a very good biblical answer for your question (Luke 16: 14-26ish)Yes. Quote: 4. Yesterday, I had to work a 9 hour day (8 hours plus 30 min travel there and back), as opposed to the 4 hours I usually work (I only work part-time). I was really stressed out because the shift started pretty early and I would have to be there all day, so I prayed that God would help me deal with it. Before I went to work, I got a call from my boss asking me if I could work a later shift at a different location. The new location was only 3 minutes from my house and I was able to go home and relax for my break. Yes. Quote: 5. About a week ago, I had been thinking about going to the guild prayer request board and ask for prayer about college. I had finally decided to go there, and when I did, I noticed someone was praying for the exact same thing. Not only was I able to get some prayer, but talk to someone who knew how I feel and offer me some encouragement. Yes. And your dog story was a "wait". So, when you prayed to the magical mug for a thousand dollars, you just happened to see the magical mug manual lying right next to it the moment you finished praying to it, and it said that the thousand dollars was not necessary for your life, but that you should dedicate your life to following the magical mug manual. I got far more than a yes in these situations. I got an explination, encouragement, and a path to more questions. Like I said, prayer is not a question to God, it is a conversation with God.
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Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:50 pm
Goldenlici Lethkhar Goldenlici Lethkhar Goldenlici Re: Magic Coffee Mug I suppose if you believe in the whole "yes," "no," and "wait" thing, you have a good argument. I never believed that. I have never even heard that. I don't doubt that some people say that, but as you said, that ... theory, idea, answer, thing, has some problems. I have heard God answer me as plain as day sometimes. I am always alert for an answer to my prayers, because I know God never answers with just one word. I have never heard the answer "yes," "no," or "wait." Sorry to get a little preachy, but I just want to say that I personally believe that prayer is not just a question but a conversation with God. However, that is a whole different topic. Actually, what you have thus described to me is essentially the same: God answers with a "yes". You've admitted to this. God answers with a "no". You've admitted to God choosing what's best for you rather than what you want. God answers with a "wait". Your dog story outlined this perfectly. Please, show me that I'm wrong. .... Fine, I'll give you some examples of how my prayers have been answered. They are probably silly to you and you won't want to believe they happened, but here they are. 1. I already told you about the whole car drive prayer answered by a song on the radio. Yes. Quote: 2. One day, at the beginning of summer, I started really stressing about how I was going to pay for college, and prayed about it right before I went to bed. I always pray and read a few scriptures before bed, so I leave my bible open on the floor of my room. After I had finished praying, I looked down to the page my Bible was opened to and the first verse I saw was Proverbs 28: 20. Proverbs 28:20 A faithful man will abound with blessings, But he who hastens to be rich will not go unfinished. ...I don't really understand that verse. A faithful man will abound with blessings...I got that. But he who hastens to be rich...Got that. ...will not go unfinished...What? Go where? Unfinished with what? Sorry, mistype on my part. It is unpunished. sweatdrop BIG difference... Quote: Quote: 3. Just a few days ago, when we were talking about hell and why it is necessary and this topic as well, I was praying about what I should say. I again, looked down at my bible and it was opened to Luke 16: 19, the story titled the rich man and Lazarus. I remeber just that day how I talked about Luke 16: 13 in a post to you. That story really helped encourage me. (You should read it, it basically is the Bible's answer to this very question.) Believe it or not, I've read the Bible. I never said you didn't, just that this particualr story is a very good biblical answer for your question (Luke 16: 14-26ish)Yes. Quote: 4. Yesterday, I had to work a 9 hour day (8 hours plus 30 min travel there and back), as opposed to the 4 hours I usually work (I only work part-time). I was really stressed out because the shift started pretty early and I would have to be there all day, so I prayed that God would help me deal with it. Before I went to work, I got a call from my boss asking me if I could work a later shift at a different location. The new location was only 3 minutes from my house and I was able to go home and relax for my break. Yes. Quote: 5. About a week ago, I had been thinking about going to the guild prayer request board and ask for prayer about college. I had finally decided to go there, and when I did, I noticed someone was praying for the exact same thing. Not only was I able to get some prayer, but talk to someone who knew how I feel and offer me some encouragement. Yes. And your dog story was a "wait". So, when you prayed to the magical mug for a thousand dollars, you just happened to see the magical mug manual lying right next to it the moment you finished praying to it, and it said that the thousand dollars was not necessary for your life, but that you should dedicate your life to following the magical mug manual. What you got, in that case, was a "no". It's inconsequential, really. In your "form of God answering prayer", God can't lose either. Quote: I got far more than a yes in these situations. I got an explination, encouragement, and a path to more questions. Like I said, prayer is not a question to God, it is a conversation with God. If you want, I could rewrite my coffee mug argument to fit yours so that you have a "conversation" with the coffee mug. It's not really that difficult. It's the same idea, really.
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Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 4:33 pm
What you would reformulate your coffee mug theory into would be far less believable if you included anything else. Also, what about my other post?
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