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 Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:42 pm
LunarSong Hey! Thanks for inviting me to your thread, RanmaXHikaru. ^^;
Of course, as you know, I AM a huge Cloti fan, so I'm glad there's a thread...
Anyhow, I'll actually post something of worthy content when I have more time to read the front page, and the other posts!
All right LunarSong it's great to see you here!!! I'll defiantly be waiting for your wonderful posts. I'm sure you’ll post some great stuff! xd
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Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:31 pm
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Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:18 pm
Sara Hysaro I found this really nice fanfiction (it's poetic): http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3007320/1/ That was just so sweet 4laugh . Ill be looking foward to you posting more.
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:51 am
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Posted: Thu Oct 26, 2006 3:14 pm
 Well, I decided to post my reasons, because I think they're pretty logical. Also, skimming through this thread, hardly anyone listed their reasons. :/ Mine are very long, as this is only half of it, pretty much, lol. I guess I'm somewhat of a "diehard" fan, as someone called themselves earlier. [If I offend any Cleris fan in this post, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to put the pairing down, since this is a *pro* thread. :/ I will put it out there that I don't like it though.] Now, let's begin.
(So these are, in a sense, works of 'proof'.)
[OP]= Opinion based statement.
*My opinion is that Cloud and Tifa definitely have more than a standard best friend realationship. It's a more than a friend, less than a girlfriend situation. It's inbetween, only because Cloud never specifically states who he loves or not.
----
"Do you love me, Cloud?"
Cloud woke up, a dubious look on his face.
"Hey, Cloud. Do you love Marlene?"
Tifa asks him this "On a Way To Smile: Case Of Tifa".
1.A dubious look, meaning of uncertain of the outcome, wavering in opinion. This proves[op],
A- Cloud didn't know what to say.
B- Cloud didn't know what kind of 'Love' she meant.
C- Cloud wasn't sure what she had said due to the aftermath of sleep.
D- Cloud thought he misheard, especially after Tifa restates herself.
Any of these possible answers can be assumed. My personal opinion, is letter A and D. I think that he might of actually heard what Tifa said, but didn't know what to say himself. I mean, it's alright to have uncertainty when someone saliently tells you they love you. Um, and after you just woke up. ^^; As for D, due to C, he might of thought he misheard, or maybe just thought he misheard her in general. He probably confirmed he did when Tifa changed what she said.
By the by, Tifa tells Cloud she loves him here. (Nervously changes her mind, that she doesn't want him to know yet, but nonetheless tells him.) If you get Tifa in the Gondola *I guess I don't count this as valid proof, since in the game you could get anyone* she tries to tell him she loves him there as well. Now, some might be wondering, if she loves Cloud so much, and he loves her back, why would both of them be so hesitant?
1- We don't know WHO Cloud loves at this point. He's very hesitant to both Aeris and Tifa's advances.
2- I would be nervous too, especially with another girl around. Especially, if not knowing for sure if your best friend thought of you as more than "a best friend" or not. She could damage their friendship by saying she loves him. Not only that, but she's nervous. Telling someone you love them isn't a walk in the park, believe you me. It takes a lot of guts, and Tifa hasn't found complete strength enough to tell him that she loves him just yet.
3- She's being considerate of Cloud's feelings. I mean, what I think is that in FF7 she was unsure if Cloud loved her or not. (She still is, but I think that's why she didn't tell him.) And, I think after Aeris dies, she doesn't want to say that she loves him for obvious reasons. Just after someone dies, and while Cloud is going through turmoil--- well, that's not a very good time to tell him you love him, right? Tifa shows her affection in kind of a secretive way, with her actions and some of the things she says. She doesn't necessarily have to say "I love you", she can definitely show it. And she has. In my opinion, Cloud has given her acknowledgement back which is why I am in this thread right now. ^^; YES, I know it's not CERTAIN whom he loves or not, and even Tifa knows this. When (if ever) the creators choose to show who Cloud loves,
Then that will be the proper time for either Tifa or Aeris to say,
"I love you."
-----
*Kingdom Hearts I & II. (P.S. I don't consider KH as valid information, anyways.)
A lot of Cleris fans present the fact that Nomura stated something like, "The end of KH I should of cleared some things up" <(Not a direct quote. The quote changes everytime I see it. I'm not so sure he even made a statement like that.)
If he had said that, then that would me that KH DID in fact, relate to the FF world. And that would mean Disney would also relate to the FF world. That doesn't sound right at all, does it? That would also leave explainations for why Leon is ten times older than Seifer is, and why they don't know eachother. Also, why Selphie and Squall(Leon) don't know eachother(also age differences), but Selphie knows the FFX characters.
KH has really, NOTHING to do with the FF plot. So if Nomura made such a statement, then he should of been more CLEAR about these questions as well. Also, Tifa shows up in the second KH. If you defeat Sephiroth in the game, Tifa comes and says, "Cloud, you can have my light" and then he begins to glow with light.
This may or MAY NOT mean that Tifa is his light. Some state that Cloud already found his light in KHI... if so, then why was it Tifa who showed up in KH2, and not Aeris? And if so, why did Tifa OFFER her "light" and then Cloud magically started to glow? most Cleris fans will argue, he found the energy inside himself and Tifa had no influence... but I find that very hard to believe. :/
Anyways, it never says if Cloud's "light" is definitely Tifa or definitely Aeris, so now we're back wondering as usual...
I think relating KH things to Cloti or Cleris proof isn't valid. That's just me, though.
------------
1
Tifa: "Now that you mention it, why did you want to join SOLDIER in the first place."
Cloud: "......I was devastated. ......I wanted to be noticed. I thought if I got stronger I could get someone to notice."
Tifa: "Someone has to notice you...? ......who?"
Cloud: "Who.........? ......You know who! ......You, that's who."
2
Cloud: "Tifa missed her step. I ran to her... but didn't make it in time. Both of us fell off the cliff. Back then, I only scarred my knees, but.....
Tifa was in a coma for seven days. We all thought she wouldn't make it. If only I could've saved her... I was so angry... Angry at myself for my weakness. Ever since then, I felt Tifa blamed me... I got out of control... I'd get into fights not even caring who it was. That was the first time I heard about Sephiroth. If I got strong like Sephiroth, then everyone might... If I could just get stronger...... Then even Tifa would have to notice me......"
-Ahem. Quote one, I am always brought back to this. ^^; How Cloud wanted Tifa to notice him. That shows right there that he cared for her, a definitely cherished her. He didn't walk away from her so easily, her noticing him was like something he truly wanted, truly valued. Getting her to notice and trust him was a goal for him at this time.
-Quote two, Cloud is worried that Tifa blamed him. Stressed himself with "If only I could of saved her...". This again, shows what I have just stated above.
Others argue that this isn't about Tifa, that it's about Cloud feeling weak. Sure, it is, but it's obvious he cares about Tifa, not just about gaining more power. :/ He wanted to gain power so that he could get Tifa's recognition in the first place.
---------------------------
Tifa: Hey, why don't we make a promise? Umm, if you get really famous and I'm ever in a bind..... You come save me, all right?
Cloud: What?
Tifa: Whenever I'm in trouble, my hero will come and rescue me. I want to at least experience that once.
Cloud: What?
Tifa: Come on--! Promise me----!
Cloud: All right.... I promise.
*This is what I think. I think this was a solid promise between the two of them, that Cloud was glad to fufill.
-Others will argue that Tifa FORCED Cloud to make this promise. I don't think so at all. Cloud didn't know what she was asking at first[OP]. She says "Come on, Promise me!"
She's urging him, but it was totally up to him whether to say yes or no. He could of said "Sorry, I can't promise that," or something. But he didn't, he accepted.
"All right... I promise."
Some see this as him hesitating, or reluctantly saying it.
I see it as him saying it reassuringly. He wants to be strong enough to be able to save her(proved). He couldn't that one time, and if he were hesitating with the promise, this might be why. He doesn't want to fail her again[OP]. (Which is all the more reason for him to accept the promise, even if he's not sure he can or not. ^^ wink
---------------
Tifa: After you left town, I really thought about you a lot. I used to wonder how Cloud was doing. I wonder if Cloud was able to get into SOLDIER? I started reading the newspapers, thinking that there might be an article about you.
-Tifa is REALLY noticing Cloud at this point, wondering about his well being. This ensures that she in turn cares for him as he does her.
------------------
Dilly Dally?
Cloud later in AC states: "I feel lighter now, I must of lost weight.... all that Dilly Dally."
Tifa smiles at him...
Glad that he understands what she was trying to say to him earlier in the movie. [OP].
This I think, proves that Cloud holds her opinion as valuable, and that he does in fact, listen to her. If he didn't care much for her, he wouldn't of listened. In fact, he wouldn't of cared when she was beaten up by Loz. He wouldn't of rushed to her side then, and he wouldn't of rushed to her aid in the end of FFVII when she fell off of that cliff (thingie). He wouldn't of shared that moment with her at the sunset scene in front of the airship. Which brings up the next set of quotes:
Cloud
"............It's almost dawn..."
Tifa
"H, huh...?"
(He lifts his head further, just enough so that he can look at her.)
Cloud
"Sorry. Did I wake you...? It's almost dawn, Tifa."
(She lifts her head off his shoulder and looks around sleepily.)
Tifa
"Umm... G, good morning... Cloud."
"Give me a little longer... Just a little bit longer..."
(She rests his head on his shoulder again.)
Tifa
"This day will never come again... So let me have this moment..."
(He nods)
Cloud
"Yeah... okay."
(He lowers his head again.)
Cloud
"This is probably the last time we'll have together......"
(The scene fades to black.)
This is definitely a more than friendly situation, anyone can see that. Eh, I'm not sure if I've supposed to be debating against Cleris here, so I won't say anything more.
-Others say that if you are mean to Tifa in the game, Cloud's responses would be different. I asked my friend who got Aeris on the date, and chose everything pretty much in Aeris' favor, and asked if the scene changed in anyway, quotes or anything. She said no. I rest my case.
(Though, I guess the only way to REALLY be sure is to find out myself. Maybe I will, sometime.)
Someone argued with me once, and this is utterly ridiculous, that Cloud said "This might be the last time we have together like this" because he doesn't love Tifa. I find this statement laughable. To a HUGE degree. It's like they didn't even play the game. He said that because they were about to face Sephiroth :/ They may not get another chance so close like that again, because they very might well be DEAD.
----
"That reminds me."
cloud: "You again?" "Who are you?"
"You'll find out soon,but more importantly, 5 years ago..."
cloud: "Five years ago, Nibelhiem?"
"When you went to Mt. Nibel, Tifa was your guide, right?"
cloud: "Yeah, surprised me."
"But where was Tifa other than that?"
clod: "I dunno"
"It was a great chance for you two to see each other again."
cloud: "you're right."
[Is an explaination really NEEDED here? ^^;]
------
*All in all, I don't know how Cloud feels, but I SUSPECT that he feels feelings of love, or at least a deep caring developing into love for Tifa, rather than Aeris. Yes, he definitely has a deep feeling for Aeris, but I believe Tifa is the one he truly loves. No, I would not change my mind if Aeris were still alive. (Nobody knows what would happen if she still was anyways, so I won't even go there.)
I have not once in my life, met a Cleris fan with structured opinions based on the actual content of FFVII. I've never been outdebated by one either, so I'm kind of waiting for a Cleris fan I can debate with intelligently--- and not have them lose after the first three minutes. :/ I don't see where Cleris fans get their basis, but I can name many many instances where CloudXTifa works.
This is what I felt like posting right now ^^;
I'll add more in the future if you want me to, or any of you can add to it if you want. <3
heart
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Posted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:19 pm
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Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:22 pm
Hey, thanks a lot! ^^
I have the site, with the script of FF7, but I'm not on my computer right now, so when I get a chance at home, I'll post it up here. ^-^
These quotes aren't from wikipedia, they are from someone who posted the FF7 quotes and script, etc. Completely factual, completely true, in game screenshots, the works. No opinion based things ;D
I've replayed FF7 many many times so I know that the quotes are true. ^^; If someone doesn't believe me, then they could probably just play it themselves razz
Anyways, I promise to post more later, because I have a lot more to say! My thoughts about Advent Children and Last Order.. There's a lot of Cloti things jumbled up in there. ^^; DOC I can't make a point on yet, because I haven't played it yet sadly D: . All I know is that Cloud and Tifa are still living together. (At least that's what I have heard)
So yeah! I'll post more when I get home! Ta <3
Um. Love you too? XD rofl heart
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Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:57 pm
All those reasons and all that proof were so well thought out and beautiful! I feel bad that I didn't have anything really well thought out (did I even post reasons? I think I just told why I liked the pairing).
I also like how you didn't take the Cleris pairing and roll it up into a ball and stomp all over it. You were respectful of both pairings and that's something everyone should have. I don't like the Cleris pairing (at all) but I definitely don't want to disrespect those who do like the pairing (and I expect the same treatment from the other side too).
If FF and KH had any relationship it would be this:
The worlds of FF are all in 1 dimension, and each individual world is a parallel universe within that dimension. This explains both the similarities and differences between the worlds.
As for KH, well it's a completely different dimension in my eyes. This situation caused me to revise my personal dimensional theory, so this is my new entry: In addition to parallel universes, there are also parallel dimensions which are dimensions independent of each other but still connected by a thin thread that accounts for any similarities these dimensions share.
Yeah, I think things out too much. I've actually created a series of stories centered around this theory, and most relate to the FF dimension. It's all fictional, but I do believe in the dimensional theory in its broadest definitions.
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Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 5:32 pm
Go CloTi! Theyve just always made the best sense to me.
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Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 6:48 pm
LunarSong Hey, thanks a lot! ^^
I have the site, with the script of FF7, but I'm not on my computer right now, so when I get a chance at home, I'll post it up here. ^-^
These quotes aren't from wikipedia, they are from someone who posted the FF7 quotes and script, etc. Completely factual, completely true, in game screenshots, the works. No opinion based things ;D
I've replayed FF7 many many times so I know that the quotes are true. ^^; If someone doesn't believe me, then they could probably just play it themselves razz Awesome I have been looking for the FF7 scripted forever now! Much appreciated. LunarSong Anyways, I promise to post more later, because I have a lot more to say! My thoughts about Advent Children and Last Order.. There's a lot of Cloti things jumbled up in there. ^^; DOC I can't make a point on yet, because I haven't played it yet sadly D: . All I know is that Cloud and Tifa are still living together. (At least that's what I have heard)
So yeah! I'll post more when I get home! Ta <3
Um. Love you too? XD rofl heart LunarSong I can’t wait for your next post to come! Sara Hysaro All those reasons and all that proof were so well thought out and beautiful! I feel bad that I didn't have anything really well thought out (did I even post reasons? I think I just told why I liked the pairing). I also like how you didn't take the Cleris pairing and roll it up into a ball and stomp all over it. You were respectful of both pairings and that's something everyone should have. I don't like the Cleris pairing (at all) but I definitely don't want to disrespect those who do like the pairing (and I expect the same treatment from the other side too). I also liked how you didn’t stomp on the Claeris paring even though I am very guilty of doing that myself. Sara Hysaro If FF and KH had any relationship it would be this: The worlds of FF are all in 1 dimension, and each individual world is a parallel universe within that dimension. This explains both the similarities and differences between the worlds. As for KH, well it's a completely different dimension in my eyes. This situation caused me to revise my personal dimensional theory, so this is my new entry: In addition to parallel universes, there are also parallel dimensions which are dimensions independent of each other but still connected by a thin thread that accounts for any similarities these dimensions share. Yeah, I think things out too much. I've actually created a series of stories centered around this theory, and most relate to the FF dimension. It's all fictional, but I do believe in the dimensional theory in its broadest definitions. Actually that sounds like a very logical way of thinking about it. Also if you have stories about it you can feel free to post them here. KH fics are welcomed here to as long as their about Cloud and Tifa. bostonbruinsfan Go CloTi! Theyve just always made the best sense to me. All right a new member!!!! I hope you can post more Clotif stuff later on.
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Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:01 pm
LunarSong "Do you love me, Cloud?" Cloud woke up, a dubious look on his face. "Hey, Cloud. Do you love Marlene?" Tifa asks him this "On a Way To Smile: Case Of Tifa". 1.A dubious look, meaning of uncertain of the outcome, wavering in opinion. This proves[op], A- Cloud didn't know what to say. B- Cloud didn't know what kind of 'Love' she meant. C- Cloud wasn't sure what she had said due to the aftermath of sleep. D- Cloud thought he misheard, especially after Tifa restates herself. Any of these possible answers can be assumed. My personal opinion, is letter A and D. I think that he might of actually heard what Tifa said, but didn't know what to say himself. I mean, it's alright to have uncertainty when someone saliently tells you they love you. Um, and after you just woke up. ^^; As for D, due to C, he might of thought he misheard, or maybe just thought he misheard her in general. He probably confirmed he did when Tifa changed what she said. By the by, Tifa tells Cloud she loves him here. (Nervously changes her mind, that she doesn't want him to know yet, but nonetheless tells him.) If you get Tifa in the Gondola *I guess I don't count this as valid proof, since in the game you could get anyone* she tries to tell him she loves him there as well. Now, some might be wondering, if she loves Cloud so much, and he loves her back, why would both of them be so hesitant? 1- We don't know WHO Cloud loves at this point. He's very hesitant to both Aeris and Tifa's advances. 2- I would be nervous too, especially with another girl around. Especially, if not knowing for sure if your best friend thought of you as more than "a best friend" or not. She could damage their friendship by saying she loves him. Not only that, but she's nervous. Telling someone you love them isn't a walk in the park, believe you me. It takes a lot of guts, and Tifa hasn't found complete strength enough to tell him that she loves him just yet. 3- She's being considerate of Cloud's feelings. I mean, what I think is that in FF7 she was unsure if Cloud loved her or not. (She still is, but I think that's why she didn't tell him.) And, I think after Aeris dies, she doesn't want to say that she loves him for obvious reasons. Just after someone dies, and while Cloud is going through turmoil--- well, that's not a very good time to tell him you love him, right? Tifa shows her affection in kind of a secretive way, with her actions and some of the things she says. She doesn't necessarily have to say "I love you", she can definitely show it. And she has. In my opinion, Cloud has given her acknowledgement back which is why I am in this thread right now. ^^; YES, I know it's not CERTAIN whom he loves or not, and even Tifa knows this. When (if ever) the creators choose to show who Cloud loves, Then that will be the proper time for either Tifa or Aeris to say, "I love you." Yes, when I read the novel, "dubious" got me thinking. Since the definition of the word means, "uncertain", you would think that Cloud heard her. However, I would say it's D, since in situations like that...it's quite intense. I would imagine Cloud stammering with "Umm..." "I, uh...." and some blushing. Cloud as we know, is quite a shy character. blaugh
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Posted: Mon Oct 30, 2006 8:14 pm
Sara Hysaro All those reasons and all that proof were so well thought out and beautiful! I feel bad that I didn't have anything really well thought out (did I even post reasons? I think I just told why I liked the pairing). I also like how you didn't take the Cleris pairing and roll it up into a ball and stomp all over it. You were respectful of both pairings and that's something everyone should have. I don't like the Cleris pairing (at all) but I definitely don't want to disrespect those who do like the pairing (and I expect the same treatment from the other side too). If FF and KH had any relationship it would be this: The worlds of FF are all in 1 dimension, and each individual world is a parallel universe within that dimension. This explains both the similarities and differences between the worlds. As for KH, well it's a completely different dimension in my eyes. This situation caused me to revise my personal dimensional theory, so this is my new entry: In addition to parallel universes, there are also parallel dimensions which are dimensions independent of each other but still connected by a thin thread that accounts for any similarities these dimensions share. Yeah, I think things out too much. I've actually created a series of stories centered around this theory, and most relate to the FF dimension. It's all fictional, but I do believe in the dimensional theory in its broadest definitions. Hmm...this seems logical...yes...I understand your theory. It is true, I would agree. Everything at some point ties together with other "parallel universes". KH just extends the FF world....in a strange way. sweatdrop When it comes to the relationship between Cloud, Sephiroth, and Tifa, it seems very deep. In KH 2 Aerith didn't have much of a role. She just rallied Cloud to go "find his light." Which most likely be Tifa. (He was practically blinded by her. xd ) Square is trying to say something...but it's unclear. (Dammit Square!!!!) (Oh yeah...I've heard a rumor somewhere that originally, they had a Cloti scene in KH2, but removed it because of fear of the Cleris fans. Someone hear about it?)
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Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:40 pm
Twindream (Oh yeah...I've heard a rumor somewhere that originally, they had a Cloti scene in KH2, but removed it because of fear of the Cleris fans. Someone hear about it?) Actually here is the translated quote "In Nojima-san's scenario, it explained Cloud and Tifa's connection more in-depth but I deleted it away. I thought it would be more interesting to let the gamers think about it. For example, "If Cloud's darkness is Sephiroth, then Tifa is light"; in that sense you can take it that Tifa isn't really human. The reason Tifa doesn't talk to anyone else besides Sora and co. may be because she doesn't exist as a human. Of course, I also presented her in a way that she could also be a resident of Hollow Bastion, so I think you can feely think for yourself about her."It pretty much says that Tifa is Cloud's light but then the Cleris like trash this by saying "Nomura said that Tifa is the light not Tifa is Cloud's light." It sounds like their grasping at straws. In my opinion I think the Cleris like living in delusion.
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Posted: Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:48 pm
Wow, I didn't know my dimensional theory would be so accepted! I presented things in an interesting light, though most of my FF references come from the FF1 game. This is because of the politics in my story, in which a Lufenian white mage named Mika Hysaro actually created our dimension and transfered some of her magical power onto us.
Unfortunately, the transferrence was flawed and those who gained the magical ability (in our dimension called psychics) lacked the ability to increase the amount of energy we have. That is why Mika's great-grandaughter Sara is of such great importance in the psychic community because she is the superior psychic able to increase the total energy she has. Actually, Sara is one of the chosen Warriors of Light because her great-grandmother, who became the spirit of the wind, gave her the crystal. There are three other elemental spirits who had chosen their own warriors.
It's pretty interesting to read about, and it ties into another series of books I am writting. My Portal series is poorly writen, but it takes place within the same dimension that was created by Mika Hysaro and in the forth book I am planning to write they will actually mension Mika as the creator of their dimension a few times. I was even planning on maybe having Sara make a guest appearence!
I'll post the links if you all are interested. The FF story is probably going to turn out to be a series (I'm planning on having Sara actually visit the FF7 parallel universe at some point but I don't know how that would turn out) and I hope that it will make up for how bad the Portal series is written.
Actually, here are the links right now! Just wait for the double post, it might take a little bit.
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