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 Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 1:18 pm
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-Sunset Wahine- You're forgetting something. I don't necessary believe Catholicism is the same as being saved. Period.
Why is my relationship with Christ somehow less than yours because I'm Catholic and I go to Mass? And honestly, what authority do you have to make that judgement? You don't know anything about me, my life, my relationship with God, my fellow Catholics, or even my faith on a very vague scale, as you've fantastically demonstrated since you started posting on this thread.
How can you come to any conclusion about a faith and the people who follow it when you haven't a clue about the faith itself?
I have no idea about the specifics of your beliefs beyond the fact that you seem to think that saying a rosary means you don't love Christ, but for all my sarcasm and snark, I've never tried to profess that you do not love Christ with all your heart and that you are not sincere in your beliefs and actions. I'd deeply appreciate it if you could do me (and others of my faith) the same courtesy.
Quote: No matter how the world defines being a Christian, it is NOT a religion. It is simply a RELATIONSHIP. That is what I believe. Religion is nothing to me. Nothing at all.
Yes, Christianity is most certainly a relationship with Christ, but it is also a religion by definition.
Quote: What I say about my faith is never meant to offend anyone, if that's what you're thinking. |
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Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 3:00 pm
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-Sunset Wahine- You're forgetting something. I don't necessary believe Catholicism is the same as being saved. Period.
Oh, believe me, I'm not forgetting it at all. That's not even what I'm trying to convince you of, by golly.
I'm trying to convince you that there are Catholics that love God with all of their heart.
I don't believe being Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Orthodox, Presbytarian, Lutheran, Weslyan, Pentecostal, or any denomination of Christianity you can think of is the same as being saved. However, these are all forms of Christianity. They worship God and in general are denominations of Christianity. That doesn't mean that if you're a part of them, you'll go to heaven.
The end of Matthew 7 explains perfectly well how God feels about those people that give Him lip service but never actually form a relationship with Him/give their heart to Him.
Do you believe that someone can be a Catholic who loves God with all their heart?
Quote: No matter how the world defines being a Christian, it is NOT a religion. It is simply a RELATIONSHIP. That is what I believe. Religion is nothing to me. Nothing at all.
So, what things do you do to love God?
Quote: What I say about my faith is never meant to offend anyone, if that's what you're thinking.
I am, however, frustrated because you aren't even beginning to acknowledge that someone can be Catholic and have a relationship wtih God. That is extremely unloving to your brothers and sisters in Christ that are Catholic and have that relationship with God.
By the way, I've laid forth why I believe Christianity has a religious facet to it, you tell me why you feel it doesn't.
Furthermore, tell me why you have no real respect, it seems, for the people that are more rule-bound in Christianity, such as the Catholics, than you are. |
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Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 5:59 pm
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-Sunset Wahine- I hate to call my salvation a religion.
boo-hoo. It's still a religion.
Quote: Did you read all I said in my post? I don't care how the world defines being a Christian.
Good thing that I'm christian, then.
Quote: It is simply a RELATIONSHIP.
A relationship involving rules, practices and a diety. yeah, sounds about like a religion to me. |
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Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:00 pm
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:50 pm
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:00 pm
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SinfulGuillotine -Sunset Wahine- You're forgetting something. I don't necessary believe Catholicism is the same as being saved. Period. ? No, seriously. You have yet to give an answer that has not been refuted over and over and over again. Why is my relationship with Christ somehow less than yours because I'm Catholic and I go to Mass? And honestly, what authority do you have to make that judgement? You don't know anything about me, my life, my relationship with God, my fellow Catholics, or even my faith on a very vague scale, as you've fantastically demonstrated since you started posting on this thread. How can you come to any conclusion about a faith and the people who follow it when you haven't a clue about the faith itself? I have no idea about the specifics of your beliefs beyond the fact that you seem to think that saying a rosary means you don't love Christ, but for all my sarcasm and snark, I've never tried to profess that you do not love Christ with all your heart and that you are not sincere in your beliefs and actions. I'd deeply appreciate it if you could do me (and others of my faith) the same courtesy. Quote: No matter how the world defines being a Christian, it is NOT a religion. It is simply a RELATIONSHIP. That is what I believe. Religion is nothing to me. Nothing at all. I direct you to Blue's lovely and colourful Venn diagram, in addition to the dictionary deifnition of religion that he provided, in addition to the dictionary definition of religion that I provided pages back in this same debate. Yes, Christianity is most certainly a relationship with Christ, but it is also a religion by definition. Quote: What I say about my faith is never meant to offend anyone, if that's what you're thinking. I love how you've started putting these disclaimers on all your posts. Really. It just makes my day.
BTW, sarcasm never helps. My patience is done on that! |
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:09 pm
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Berezi -Sunset Wahine- You're forgetting something. I don't necessary believe Catholicism is the same as being saved. Period. Oh, believe me, I'm not forgetting it at all. That's not even what I'm trying to convince you of, by golly. I'm trying to convince you that there are Catholics that love God with all of their heart. I don't believe being Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Orthodox, Presbytarian, Lutheran, Weslyan, Pentecostal, or any denomination of Christianity you can think of is the same as being saved. However, these are all forms of Christianity. They worship God and in general are denominations of Christianity. That doesn't mean that if you're a part of them, you'll go to heaven. The end of Matthew 7 explains perfectly well how God feels about those people that give Him lip service but never actually form a relationship with Him/give their heart to Him. Do you believe that someone can be a Catholic who loves God with all their heart? Quote: No matter how the world defines being a Christian, it is NOT a religion. It is simply a RELATIONSHIP. That is what I believe. Religion is nothing to me. Nothing at all. So, what things do you do to love God? Quote: What I say about my faith is never meant to offend anyone, if that's what you're thinking. That's not what I'm thinking at all. I am, however, frustrated because you aren't even beginning to acknowledge that someone can be Catholic and have a relationship wtih God. That is extremely unloving to your brothers and sisters in Christ that are Catholic and have that relationship with God. By the way, I've laid forth why I believe Christianity has a religious facet to it, you tell me why you feel it doesn't. Furthermore, tell me why you have no real respect, it seems, for the people that are more rule-bound in Christianity, such as the Catholics, than you are.
What things do I do to love God?
One thing. I live for Him. |
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Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:11 pm
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Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:26 am
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Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:35 am
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-Sunset Wahine- Okay. First of all, I have said this many times. I DO NOT BELIEVE CATHOLICISM IS THE SAME AS BEING A CHRISTIAN. I believe it is another "religion" that doesn't involve being truly saved. It is a bondage where you do religious practices to earn a way to Heaven, yet there is NO relationship. SO HOW CAN I BE JUDGING YOUR FAITH IN THE FIRST PLACE? BTW, sarcasm never helps. My patience is done on that!
Seriously, where do you get off? How the hell do you pressume to know anything about my relationship with Christ?
Please. Explain to me how you can know that I, as a Catholic, am not a saved Christian.
Do me an enormous favour. Stop telling me that I don't have a relationship with Christ. It's getting old, and now I'm officially pissed off. I'm not even offended. I'm just livid that you seem to think that you can dictate who does and does not have a relationship with Christ based on the sect of Christianity that they subscribe to.
You ARE judging my faith. You are telling me that because I'm Catholic, I have no relationship with Christ. Please explain to me how that is not judging.
As I stated before - regardless of how rude and snide I may be with you, I retain enough respect for you as a human being and a fellow follower of Christ that I will not assume anything about your personal relationship with God.
I'm really at a loss as to why you can't have the decency to treat me with the same level of respect. Because really, that's all I'm asking. Are you just too superior to realise that people can worship in different ways and still be Christian? |
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Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:23 am
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Sunset, I've had enough of you denying SinfulGuillotine's faith. It's getting outright annoying.
While I don't question your faith as a Christian, I think you need some serious reprimanding. I've tried delicacy and I've tried being semi-harsh, but to no avail. What I'm about to say is the last resort.
Do you know who you remind me of? The Pharisees. The Pharisees got to the point where they treated any one different as completely bad and unworthy of salvation. Everyone from Gentiles to Samaritans to tax collectors and prostitutes. If they didn't fit into the Pharisees' standard of life, they couldn't be good Jews - not in the way that the Pharisees were. They did not have a superior form of Judaism.
Do you know why they remind me of you? Because if someone follows too many rules, you don't acknowledge that they could possibly be a Christian in the way that you are. You do not have some superior form of Christianity, and your blindness to your brother in Christ here shows me that you are just like the Pharisees in that you refuse to acknowledge anyone different. You do differ, however, because your heart truly belongs to Christ.
Jesus differed from the Pharisees because He looked at people's hearts. And in Jesus' eyes, there is no degree of worthiness, just a longing for redemption. He gives salvation to everyone he meets that longs for it. This includes the Pharisees that really wanted salvation - Nicodemus and Saul/Paul. They by no means stopped living by certain rules, but their motive for doing so was restored to them - they did it because they loved God, not because they wanted to earn something.
Judaism was supposed to be the light of the world until Christ came along. The Pharisees failed in their duty to represent God when they started picking and choosing who was really saved and who wasn't.
The Pharisees did this because of their hatred of other human beings that were not like them. Stop what you are doing right now. Stop being hateful of your brothers and sisters in Christ by denying that they are your brothers and sisters! Stop sinning in this regard, please!
I say these things as your sister in Christ because it is my goal that you stop this sin. This is not one of those ambiguous things in the Bible that you can agree to disagree on. This is you deliberately ostracizing people because they don't worship like you do! My aim is not to condemn you, rather it is for you to see your wrong and repent!
And yes, saying this to you is still a gesture of love. I'm trying to get you to see where you are sinning so you can get it out of your life and therefore draw closer to God. If I didn't love you I'd give up. And I would hope that if I were sinning, someone would do whatever it takes to tell me about it, even if it was as brutal as what I've just said or worse.
Either way, I do apologize for the injury this post will do to you. Just because I'm doing it in love doesn't mean I derive pleasure from it. If you don't get the point, I apologize more, because then you will have been hurt in vain.
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Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:30 am
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-Sunset Wahine- Being a Christian has NO religious part to it because being a Christian is NOT about religious traditions, but about being saved from sin! We are born into the world as a sinner. Religion won't change that. Jesus will!
That's a fair enough why. I agree that religion has no part in salvation. BECOMING a Christian is not about religion in any sense.
LIVING as a Christian involves religion, because that entails obeying God. How do we obey God? By keeping His commands. Where are those found? In the Bible. What is the Bible? The inspired word of God, a document showing the history of God in relation to mankind, and the rules that God has put forth for us to live by. It is following them that gives Christianity a relgious facet to it, but that doesn't make the whole a religion. There is more to it because we obey because we love God, not to earn anything.
Quote: What things do I do to love God? One thing. I live for Him.
I don't mean that in an insulting way, by the way. I'm asking about the particulars. Give me examples of how you live for God. |
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Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:20 pm
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Tangled Up In Blue -Sunset Wahine- I DO NOT BELIEVE CATHOLICISM IS THE SAME AS BEING A CHRISTIAN. I believe it is another "religion" that doesn't involve being truly saved. It is a bondage where you do religious practices to earn a way to Heaven, yet there is NO relationship. Fine. That's what you believe. I am now asking you to please keep that opinion to yourself. It flies in the face of generally accepted definitions of both 'Christian' and 'religion', and it is deeply offensive to the Catholic members of this guild. You've made your point, and now I think we ought to be done with this discussion. But I would like to leave you with one parting thought: What if we started saying that your 'relationship' with God was not Christian, and that you were consequently 'unsaved'? How would that sit with you? Everyone is orthodox to himself; you see your religion—no, I will not be made to use your euphemisms—as the paragon of Christian virtue, but I would remind you that other Christians view their own sects as being perfectly Christian, whether you agree with them or not. I would ask you to respect their faith, as they have so far respected yours. |
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Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 10:23 pm
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SinfulGuillotine -Sunset Wahine- Okay. First of all, I have said this many times. I DO NOT BELIEVE CATHOLICISM IS THE SAME AS BEING A CHRISTIAN. I believe it is another "religion" that doesn't involve being truly saved. It is a bondage where you do religious practices to earn a way to Heaven, yet there is NO relationship. SO HOW CAN I BE JUDGING YOUR FAITH IN THE FIRST PLACE? BTW, sarcasm never helps. My patience is done on that! And my patience is done as far as you claiming that I have no relationship because I'm Catholic. Seriously, where do you get off? How the hell do you pressume to know anything about my relationship with Christ? Please. Explain to me how you can know that I, as a Catholic, am not a saved Christian. Do me an enormous favour. Stop telling me that I don't have a relationship with Christ. It's getting old, and now I'm officially pissed off. I'm not even offended. I'm just livid that you seem to think that you can dictate who does and does not have a relationship with Christ based on the sect of Christianity that they subscribe to. You ARE judging my faith. You are telling me that because I'm Catholic, I have no relationship with Christ. Please explain to me how that is not judging. As I stated before - regardless of how rude and snide I may be with you, I retain enough respect for you as a human being and a fellow follower of Christ that I will not assume anything about your personal relationship with God. I'm really at a loss as to why you can't have the decency to treat me with the same level of respect. Because really, that's all I'm asking. Are you just too superior to realise that people can worship in different ways and still be Christian? |
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