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 Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2006 7:51 pm
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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:25 am
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Cometh The Inquisitor LittlePinky82 Then go and read the other verses I have posted at least twice now. Because of Christ being the new covenant we are no longer bound to the old ways and laws. Jesus was since the new covenant hasn't happend yet obviously when he was a live. But it's never stated by Jesus. Only by Paul.
Luke 22:
20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."
Oh and of course Paul would say it and not Christ because when Paul said that the new covenant had already happened! Christ had died and sacrificed himself for us. When Christ was a live the new covenant hadn't happened yet. rolleyes Obviously. |
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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:38 am
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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:47 am
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Berezi LittlePinky82 Right now I'm going to a local community school to do all my main stuff and get that out of the way. I'm not sure what year I am but I have a couple of more classes to take. I'm HOPEFULLY going to be done next fall but I'm not sure because I'm not sure how many years of foreign language I have to take since I didn't have to take that (they didn't make that mandatory until after my graduating class). Right now I'm a music major but I have been going back and forth on changing my major but I'm not sure right now. Sweet. If music is your passion, stick with it. I have (I guess) a singing ability, but it's not one of my main talents. And I don't know much about rhythm or harmonies. Good luck! I know it takes a lot. LittlePinky82 Once again as I already told in my last post Jesus of course still followed the old testament because he was Jewish and the new convenant and ways didn't happen until after Christ's sacrifice and his blood shed. So obviously he himself would still follow things and use the old testament since they were still bound by the old testament and the new covenant hasn't happened yet. But I as a Christian am bound by Christ and not the old covenant. See, now we're just repeating ourselves (and to clarify I have every intention of including myself in this "we"). This means the discussion is essentially over, because it'll turn into a shouting match if we don't drop this now. But honestly, this shouldn't be a divisive issue among Christians. I think I've bolstered my point perfectly well, and you think you've supported yours nicely too. However, I hope we can both agree that this shouldn't affect how much we love Jesus and how much we actually go out and enact what Jesus has told us to. LittlePinky82 Just because someone seems to know a lot and has well grammar doesn't mean you can tell how old someone is and how much education a person has had. You can be the best person in your school at grammar and still be ignorant on somethings. That isn't really a good indication of what you know. Sadly, this isn't the case. Ideally, that could happen. However, I've never met someone with impeccable grammar and an expanded vocabulary that was ignorant on the subjects we have brought up. Maybe you have. It's generally a good assumption that if someone has good grammar that they are not ignorant. There are plenty of well-informed people with bad grammar, but there are not many ignorant people with excellent grammar. Plus, you mentioned Frederick Douglass multiple times in this thread. If it was your first mention, I wouldn't have seen anything in your asking me about him. LittlePinky82 Who said I didn't believe in the words of Paul?? Hmm... You did. Right in this next quote. LittlePinky82 I would appreciate it again if you don't put words in my mouth, okay? As I have previously said Paul had good things to say etc. but he's not my Lord and he isn't my Savior is he? In the end I compare and contrast with what Paul says to what Christ says. If Christ is silent on the issue then so am I. You basically are saying that Paul's words don't have the authority of being spoken by God via Paul, meaning that you don't believe in the writings of Paul as a whole. You think certain parts of it are nice, but unless it's written elsewhere in the Bible in red letters, it's not authoritative. LittlePinky82 Christian's can learn a lot from Paul and his mistakes and his lesson's but he just isn't the one who I answer to when my life ends is he? Of course not. But he spoke on behalf of the One who you will answer to. And God has all the say over your soul in the world. LittlePinky82 And again I'm saying it isn't a part of Christianity because of the new covenant. It was a part of Jesus but that's because when he was a live the new covenant hasn't obviously happened yet. Once the new covenant happened we are no longer bound by the old ways. Oh so wrong. The entire validity of Christ is backed up in the Old Testament. In Christ's day and age, many claimed to be the Messiah. Why do we worship Christ? Because of the prophecies in the Old Testament that He alone has fulfilled. Also, there are so many details about God that we learn in the Old Testament that the New Testament doesn't go into great depths about because it was written for people who were familiar with the Old Testament. That being said, if all else fails, the Old Testament should be a part of Christianity to better help us understand the New Testament.
Thanks for the luck. I've been involved with music since I was a little kid so you get the hang of it. Even taking guitar in my first term of college was pretty easy. It does matter because you're still going by the old covenant and God told in Jeremiah 31 that he was having a new covenant with Christ and that is with Christ's sacrifice. So if you're still following the old ways nothing has really changed. And it does matter again because the old covenant was without the promise that God made with Christ and to save us all. That promise isn't in the old covenant and isn't for those of us who are Gentiles using the Biblical reference there. What does Fredrick Douglass have to do with grammar??? *shrug* It's just a good book that shows a part of how Christian's can abuse Christianity and Christ's message and it's something we should all want to learn from so we don't do it again in the future (even though it's already happening now with gay people and the "religious right."). But I have had discussion's in the past with people who have really well grammar and are ignorant on issues with the middle east or something of the past with the States (many Christian's like to say we were founded as a Christian country even though we weren't for example). So it happens all the time. No hon you're putting words in my mouth. My point is Paul is not my Savior now is he? He isn't the one who is going to save me and he isn't the one who sacrificed his life for my soul. That is my point about Paul. Paul's job as an apostole was to preach the message of Jesus, set up Christ's church etc. His job isn't to be my Savior. So I would appreciate it if in the future you DON'T put words in my mouth unless you quote me specifically saying something. Not true. Christ was still bound to the Old Testament because the new covenant hadn't happened yet!
Jeremiah 31:
31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD.
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
35 This is what the LORD says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the LORD Almighty is his name:
36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the LORD,
"will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me."
37 This is what the LORD says:
"Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,"
declares the LORD.
38 "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the LORD. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished."
So of course Christ was still bound to the old laws but I'm not since Christ is the new covenant and the new promise. This promise is not in the old testament so if you're following the old covenant the new covenant doesn't matter to you since it isn't there.
2 Corinthians 2:
Ministers of the New Covenant
12Now when I went to Troas to preach the gospel of Christ and found that the Lord had opened a door for me, 13I still had no peace of mind, because I did not find my brother Titus there. So I said good-by to them and went on to Macedonia.
14But thanks be to God, who always leads us in triumphal procession in Christ and through us spreads everywhere the fragrance of the knowledge of him. 15For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. 16To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life. And who is equal to such a task? 17Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God.
2 Corinthians 3
1Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
The Glory of the New Covenant
7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect[a] the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit. |
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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 10:48 am
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Cometh The Inquisitor LittlePinky82 Luke 22: 20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you." I see no mention of the Old Covenant. We need Paul's writings to say anything about the Old Covenant.
Jeremiah 31:
31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD,
"when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD.
33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time," declares the LORD.
"I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,"
declares the LORD.
"For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
35 This is what the LORD says,
he who appoints the sun
to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
so that its waves roar—
the LORD Almighty is his name:
36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,"
declares the LORD,
"will the descendants of Israel ever cease
to be a nation before me."
37 This is what the LORD says:
"Only if the heavens above can be measured
and the foundations of the earth below be searched out
will I reject all the descendants of Israel
because of all they have done,"
declares the LORD.
38 "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the LORD. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished."
Old covenant mentioned. |
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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:00 pm
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LittlePinky82 Thanks for the luck. I've been involved with music since I was a little kid so you get the hang of it. Even taking guitar in my first term of college was pretty easy.
Sweet. =) That's like math and I...
Quote: It does matter because you're still going by the old covenant and God told in Jeremiah 31 that he was having a new covenant with Christ and that is with Christ's sacrifice. So if you're still following the old ways nothing has really changed. And it does matter again because the old covenant was without the promise that God made with Christ and to save us all. That promise isn't in the old covenant and isn't for those of us who are Gentiles using the Biblical reference there.
See, here's the thing. In following the New Covenant, I feel obliged to know as much about my bible as I can. The lessons to be learned in the Old Testament do not contradict the heart of the New Covenant. After all, the Old Testament was spoken into existence by God at some point, and God does not contradict Himself. God did away with the decrees of the Old Covenant, but He did not contradict their intent when He made the New Covenant.
The Old Testament and New Testament have equal weight in my faith. This has helped me in my walk to be a disciple of Jesus.
I don't know how it is for you. But I do know that the essential thing is that you love Jesus and are trying to be His disciple.
Our differing views on how important the Old Testament should/shouldn't be in our faith doesn't make one of us more or less of a Christian than the other.
This is why I say it doesn't matter too heavily.
Quote: But I have had discussion's in the past with people who have really well grammar and are ignorant on issues with the middle east or something of the past with the States (many Christian's like to say we were founded as a Christian country even though we weren't for example). So it happens all the time.
I can understand the middle east thing. You have to try hard to be informed on that. I can also understand the Christian country thing, considering how prevalent this view is. In truth, this view is based on a half-truth because some of the founders did have Christian leanings/were Christians, though they tried to keep it out of the Constitution.
However, other things, like Frederick Douglass, that at least get a mention in the average school's curriculum are a bit harder for me to picture someone with good grammar not at least knowing about.
Of course, that might just be in my area. The kids at my school that had good grammar were the ones that were really attentive to detail and remembered even the littlest things. They weren't ignorant about the things that were taught in school.
Anyway...we're getting a bit off-topic. =P
Quote: No hon you're putting words in my mouth. My point is Paul is not my Savior now is he? He isn't the one who is going to save me and he isn't the one who sacrificed his life for my soul. That is my point about Paul. Paul's job as an apostole was to preach the message of Jesus, set up Christ's church etc. His job isn't to be my Savior.
So if you believe that Paul's words do have divine authority, what do you do with 2 Timothy 3:16 that says every scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness? Because when Paul wrote those words, he wrote them with the Old Testament in mind because he and the early church viewed the Old Testament as well as the apostilic writings (New Testament) to be valid scripture.
That says two things about the Old Testament (including Levitical Law)
1) God spoke them into existence. Therefore they are holy.
2) There must be some truth that can be drawn from them that will help us in our walk with God. Even though the actual specifics of Levitical Law don't need to be followed anymore, it is the ideas and intentions behind them that we can use in our walk with God (to be pure, to have grace, to give freely, to trust God's provision, etc.)
Just to re-state my stance on levitical law - we don't have to follow the specifics anymore because of Jesus, but we should still follow the intent behind them. Jesus also commands us to do so. Jesus said that loving God and loving others as yourself sums up ALL the other laws quite effectively. The intent of the law is by no means dead.
Quote: So I would appreciate it if in the future you DON'T put words in my mouth unless you quote me specifically saying something.
I'll try to avoid it. But here's the thing: the tone of your words has a lot of meaning to it. The tone of your words will sometimes make it seem like you're saying something you don't intend to say. For example, when I first responded to you, I didn't mean to condemn you, only the idea that the Old Testament wasn't important. You took it another way because of the tone of my words.
It is true that you didn't specifically say that you disbelieved Paul. However, the general tone that you spoke of Paul would have led us to believe that. Since you've clarified yourself, I'll try to keep that in mind.
Quote: So of course Christ was still bound to the old laws but I'm not since Christ is the new covenant and the new promise. This promise is not in the old testament so if you're following the old covenant the new covenant doesn't matter to you since it isn't there.
Umm, you might be misunderstanding me.
Because I'm not following the Old Covenant. I'm following the New Covenant. I am, after all, a Christian.
I still revere the Old Testament for the following reasons:
1) God did, after all, speak it into existence.
2) The intent and themes of the Old Testament help to understand the New Testament better.
3) I want to know as much about God as I can.
4) You can see just how intent God was on making Christ the messiah - the Old Testament is littered with pointers to Christ.
I revere the New Testament for the following reasons:
1) The New Covenant is outlined there and therefore the means to my salvation is contained in those pages.
2) God spoke it into existence.
3) I want to know as much about God as I can.
4) You can see just how intently God fulfills/keeps the promises He makes, the New Testament is littered with fulfillements of the promises of the Old Testament.
And if you look at the two number 4's, you see that the New Testament and the Old Testament are both part of understanding a very key part of God: His faithfulness. To take either part away is to undermine our understanding of it. The sheer magnitude of it is shown when you get to see God's faithfulness across time - because it shows that He has never abandoned His people (different from allowing bad things to happen to them) and He has never broken His promises, even after thousands of years. |
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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:49 pm
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LittlePinky82 Jeremiah 31: 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD. 33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." 35 This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the LORD Almighty is his name: 36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the LORD, "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me." 37 This is what the LORD says: "Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done," declares the LORD. 38 "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the LORD. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished." Old covenant mentioned.
Oh, so it's okay for you to use the old testament, but when I do I suddenly convert to judeism?
Hypocritical, much? |
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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:22 pm
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Cometh The Inquisitor LittlePinky82 Jeremiah 31: 31 "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they broke my covenant,
though I was a husband to [d] them, [e] "
declares the LORD. 33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." 35 This is what the LORD says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the LORD Almighty is his name: 36 "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the LORD, "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me." 37 This is what the LORD says: "Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done," declares the LORD. 38 "The days are coming," declares the LORD, "when this city will be rebuilt for me from the Tower of Hananel to the Corner Gate. 39 The measuring line will stretch from there straight to the hill of Gareb and then turn to Goah. 40 The whole valley where dead bodies and ashes are thrown, and all the terraces out to the Kidron Valley on the east as far as the corner of the Horse Gate, will be holy to the LORD. The city will never again be uprooted or demolished." Old covenant mentioned. Oh, so it's okay for you to use the old testament, but when I do I suddenly convert to judeism? Hypocritical, much?
Hon it proves my point even in the old testament. I've used plenty of references to the new testament and this one even proves it in the old testament. Please you're grasping at straws. |
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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 4:39 pm
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Berezi LittlePinky82 Thanks for the luck. I've been involved with music since I was a little kid so you get the hang of it. Even taking guitar in my first term of college was pretty easy. Sweet. =) That's like math and I... Quote: It does matter because you're still going by the old covenant and God told in Jeremiah 31 that he was having a new covenant with Christ and that is with Christ's sacrifice. So if you're still following the old ways nothing has really changed. And it does matter again because the old covenant was without the promise that God made with Christ and to save us all. That promise isn't in the old covenant and isn't for those of us who are Gentiles using the Biblical reference there. See, here's the thing. In following the New Covenant, I feel obliged to know as much about my bible as I can. The lessons to be learned in the Old Testament do not contradict the heart of the New Covenant. After all, the Old Testament was spoken into existence by God at some point, and God does not contradict Himself. God did away with the decrees of the Old Covenant, but He did not contradict their intent when He made the New Covenant. The Old Testament and New Testament have equal weight in my faith. This has helped me in my walk to be a disciple of Jesus. I don't know how it is for you. But I do know that the essential thing is that you love Jesus and are trying to be His disciple. Our differing views on how important the Old Testament should/shouldn't be in our faith doesn't make one of us more or less of a Christian than the other. This is why I say it doesn't matter too heavily. Quote: But I have had discussion's in the past with people who have really well grammar and are ignorant on issues with the middle east or something of the past with the States (many Christian's like to say we were founded as a Christian country even though we weren't for example). So it happens all the time. I can understand the middle east thing. You have to try hard to be informed on that. I can also understand the Christian country thing, considering how prevalent this view is. In truth, this view is based on a half-truth because some of the founders did have Christian leanings/were Christians, though they tried to keep it out of the Constitution. However, other things, like Frederick Douglass, that at least get a mention in the average school's curriculum are a bit harder for me to picture someone with good grammar not at least knowing about. Of course, that might just be in my area. The kids at my school that had good grammar were the ones that were really attentive to detail and remembered even the littlest things. They weren't ignorant about the things that were taught in school. Anyway...we're getting a bit off-topic. =P Quote: No hon you're putting words in my mouth. My point is Paul is not my Savior now is he? He isn't the one who is going to save me and he isn't the one who sacrificed his life for my soul. That is my point about Paul. Paul's job as an apostole was to preach the message of Jesus, set up Christ's church etc. His job isn't to be my Savior. So if you believe that Paul's words do have divine authority, what do you do with 2 Timothy 3:16 that says every scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness? Because when Paul wrote those words, he wrote them with the Old Testament in mind because he and the early church viewed the Old Testament as well as the apostilic writings (New Testament) to be valid scripture. That says two things about the Old Testament (including Levitical Law) 1) God spoke them into existence. Therefore they are holy. 2) There must be some truth that can be drawn from them that will help us in our walk with God. Even though the actual specifics of Levitical Law don't need to be followed anymore, it is the ideas and intentions behind them that we can use in our walk with God (to be pure, to have grace, to give freely, to trust God's provision, etc.) Just to re-state my stance on levitical law - we don't have to follow the specifics anymore because of Jesus, but we should still follow the intent behind them. Jesus also commands us to do so. Jesus said that loving God and loving others as yourself sums up ALL the other laws quite effectively. The intent of the law is by no means dead. Quote: So I would appreciate it if in the future you DON'T put words in my mouth unless you quote me specifically saying something. I'll try to avoid it. But here's the thing: the tone of your words has a lot of meaning to it. The tone of your words will sometimes make it seem like you're saying something you don't intend to say. For example, when I first responded to you, I didn't mean to condemn you, only the idea that the Old Testament wasn't important. You took it another way because of the tone of my words. It is true that you didn't specifically say that you disbelieved Paul. However, the general tone that you spoke of Paul would have led us to believe that. Since you've clarified yourself, I'll try to keep that in mind. Quote: So of course Christ was still bound to the old laws but I'm not since Christ is the new covenant and the new promise. This promise is not in the old testament so if you're following the old covenant the new covenant doesn't matter to you since it isn't there. Umm, you might be misunderstanding me. Because I'm not following the Old Covenant. I'm following the New Covenant. I am, after all, a Christian. I still revere the Old Testament for the following reasons: 1) God did, after all, speak it into existence. 2) The intent and themes of the Old Testament help to understand the New Testament better. 3) I want to know as much about God as I can. 4) You can see just how intent God was on making Christ the messiah - the Old Testament is littered with pointers to Christ. I revere the New Testament for the following reasons: 1) The New Covenant is outlined there and therefore the means to my salvation is contained in those pages. 2) God spoke it into existence. 3) I want to know as much about God as I can. 4) You can see just how intently God fulfills/keeps the promises He makes, the New Testament is littered with fulfillements of the promises of the Old Testament. And if you look at the two number 4's, you see that the New Testament and the Old Testament are both part of understanding a very key part of God: His faithfulness. To take either part away is to undermine our understanding of it. The sheer magnitude of it is shown when you get to see God's faithfulness across time - because it shows that He has never abandoned His people (different from allowing bad things to happen to them) and He has never broken His promises, even after thousands of years.
1) DUH! The old testament still applied to Jesus Christ because HE was the new covenant and IT DIDN'T HAPPEN YET! His death was what brought the new covenant. Since he *gasps* hadn't died yet of course he would go around and talk about the old covenant and the old testament because he was still bound by it!
2) It does matter again your views on the old testament because the new covenant is not there. There is not that promise for those of us who are Gentiles using that reference again. If there wasn't that promise from Christ we wouldn't be making this argument.
3) The founding fathers were not Christian. Many of them left England to get away from what many Christian's are trying to rewrite history as. "The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian religion." ~ Senator John Adams in 1792 and then look at Thomas Jefferson. He even did his own version of the Bible and left out a lot of key things to Christianity especially miracles of Jesus's. Jesus used his abilities to do his miracles to show that he was the son of God so leaving that out of a Bible is pretty bad.
4) Once again the old testament is there for those who still followed it in that time frame of the first century Church. We only have what Paul apparently wrote about it. None of us were actually there to witness and hear what he said about the old testament except what is in the known Bible and that you have to go by faith. Paul would be critical of the old testament since the new covenant (aka Christ's blood and sacrifice) came along and changed everything. People were still bound in their hearts and minds to the old ways even after Christ's death. Don't forget many tempted Christ with the old ways as well and he bounced back proper replies to those people because he was still bound to the old ways because the new covenant hadn't happened yet.
Luke 22:
20In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you."
So you're going to not eat certain foods because they are deemed unholy in the old laws? You're going to do a sacrifice of a pure animal each time you go to worship at church? You're going to wear a scarf over your head when you pray? If a woman in your church is caught having an affair you're going to stone her as an example? You're not going to commute with people who you consider to be the now day Gentiles and only fellow Christian's? Only appointed higher people in your church will be able to speak with God and we're not all equal in God's eyes? You're going to have an ark of the covenant that you keep around that nobody is going to touch unless you're one of the chosen? I highly doubt it. And no hon if you actually read what I have been saying about Paul throughout this whole discussion you would not have gotten that "impression." You put two and two together when there was not one there. I've repeatdley had the same stance on Paul throughout this whole discussion. You can learn from him, he has an important role in the first century Church etc. but he is NOT my savior. My church is not called the Church of Paul and I am not bapitized and bounded in spirit to Paul and he is not the one who will someday judge all. That is my point. CHRIST is the head of the church and he is the one you should want to listen to more then anybody else. You're putting emphasis on the old covenant (the old testament) and following it. You are following it. If not then why have I been wasting all this time arguing with you? Now you're just trying to change your position.
Please go back and read the last few pages where we start our discussion if you have a failed memory.
And finally:
1) The old testament is nothing more then a history book of how things came to be. We do not follow it. Christian's aren't supposed to use the old testament for their stances on issues whether within society or within your individual church. The old testament is the old covenant. You would be a Jew.
2) Once again I would appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth, got it? NEVER did I say to take away the old testament. I said you don't follow it. When people are making a stance on an issue and they use Genesis for their bases when they are proclaiming to be a Christian they are not arguing for Christianity. They are arguing from Judiasm and the old covenant as pointed out in Jeremiah 31 which is *gasps* in the old testament! So are you going to ignore Jeremiah 31? You seem to value the old testament so what about Jeremiah 31? I guess you're going to ignore that part right? |
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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:32 pm
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Enough.
This discussion is over.
Because quite frankly, stuff like this, especially the last part, makes me think that you don't think I'm much of a Christian for the view I hold.
And I am definetly a Christian.
LittlePinky82 1) The old testament is nothing more then a history book of how things came to be. We do not follow it. Christian's aren't supposed to use the old testament for their stances on issues whether within society or within your individual church. The old testament is the old covenant. You would be a Jew.
I view the Old Testament as God's word, yes. I view the New Testament as God's word as well.
And as I stated, since Christ made the letter of the law obsolete (i.e. the details of the Old Covenant), the thing that matters is intent.
I'm not trying to say that levitical law should be used to stand upon for an issue. That doesn't preclude the rest of the OT from being valid, though.
But enough of this because we will never get anywhere, and I don't see the scriptural validity in what you are saying to me. I do find plenty in my viewpoint, though.
Oh, and don't post all those verses yet again because I'm through with this.
I hold tightly to the promise of Christ. Very extremely tightly. I would be dead if Christ wasn't a part of my life, or in an insane asylum at best. I love Jesus with all of my heart. He is my healer, my mediator, my everything.
I am no Jew.
By the way, when you say the Old Testament isn't a part of Christianity, as you have said multiple times, you are essentially saying it has no relevance to the Christian life. And if it has no relevance to the Christian life, there's no reason for it to be there.
But don't bother responding, because I'm through.
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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:28 pm
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LittlePinky82 Hon it proves my point even in the old testament. I've used plenty of references to the new testament and this one even proves it in the old testament. Please you're grasping at straws.
Haha. Liar.
LittlePinky82 1) The old testament is nothing more then a history book of how things came to be. We do not follow it. Christian's aren't supposed to use the old testament for their stances on issues whether within society or within your individual church. The old testament is the old covenant. You would be a Jew.
So, which is it? You can or you can't use the Old Testament? |
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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:10 pm
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Cometh The Inquisitor LittlePinky82 Hon it proves my point even in the old testament. I've used plenty of references to the new testament and this one even proves it in the old testament. Please you're grasping at straws. Haha. Liar. LittlePinky82 1) The old testament is nothing more then a history book of how things came to be. We do not follow it. Christian's aren't supposed to use the old testament for their stances on issues whether within society or within your individual church. The old testament is the old covenant. You would be a Jew. So, which is it? You can or you can't use the Old Testament?
Once again you're grasping at straws. My statement stands. |
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Posted: Mon Sep 04, 2006 11:15 pm
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Berezi Enough. This discussion is over. Because quite frankly, stuff like this, especially the last part, makes me think that you don't think I'm much of a Christian for the view I hold. And I am definetly a Christian. LittlePinky82 1) The old testament is nothing more then a history book of how things came to be. We do not follow it. Christian's aren't supposed to use the old testament for their stances on issues whether within society or within your individual church. The old testament is the old covenant. You would be a Jew. I view the Old Testament as God's word, yes. I view the New Testament as God's word as well. And as I stated, since Christ made the letter of the law obsolete (i.e. the details of the Old Covenant), the thing that matters is intent. I'm not trying to say that levitical law should be used to stand upon for an issue. That doesn't preclude the rest of the OT from being valid, though. But enough of this because we will never get anywhere, and I don't see the scriptural validity in what you are saying to me. I do find plenty in my viewpoint, though. Oh, and don't post all those verses yet again because I'm through with this. I hold tightly to the promise of Christ. Very extremely tightly. I would be dead if Christ wasn't a part of my life, or in an insane asylum at best. I love Jesus with all of my heart. He is my healer, my mediator, my everything. I am no Jew. By the way, when you say the Old Testament isn't a part of Christianity, as you have said multiple times, you are essentially saying it has no relevance to the Christian life. And if it has no relevance to the Christian life, there's no reason for it to be there. But don't bother responding, because I'm through.
Once again it's all about the new covenant. For about the third or fourth time Christ would have used the old testament because he was still bound by it. The new covenant hadn't happend yet! If you're not a Jew then why do you follow the old covenant? And once again hon please for all things holy stop putting words in my mouth. I don't do it to you so I would, once again, like the same respect. Why is it so hard for you to do that? You obviously have no respect for myself since you continue to do things that quite frankly are disrespecting me such as putting words in my mouth. Christian's don't follow the old testament. You can learn from it all you want, I could care less, but you don't follow it. There is a difference. For example I can learn all about Islam but I'm not going to follow it. And for you to "be through with this" is quite frankly irresponsible and immature. You don't care about studying the scriptures or growing as a person of faith but staying in your own little world. Have you ever studied the scriptures by yourself or with other people and their view points or just your own type of people who believe like you and from hearing from other preachers and teachers who are of the same faith and do you stay in your own little bubble? With a statement like you're through with discussing the scriptures and you're not interested in learning what someone else might know and information they might have to offer it shows me that you really don't care about Christ and his message and you don't care about the Bible and you aren't serious about it because someone who is would care about discussing issues with fellow believers and debating. You even quoted a scripture yourself from Paul that said the scriptures were up for debating and you apparently like Paul but I guess you don't like him enough to listen to what he has to say and you go around and accuse me of such things? Hypocrite. |
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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:48 pm
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Initially I came back because I was kind of curious as to what you said/didn't say to me. Instead I find that you have started attacking me as a person, both me and my faith.
My reason for ending this discussion has nothing to do with my passion for the scripture. It has everything to do with the fact that we've repeated ourselves over and over, and that I'm about to get really snippy in this discussion towards you if I don't stop.
I'd prefer not to because I respect you.
I still have every right to stand up for my personal faith, however, and will do so. Because now there's no misunderstanding. You're attacking my beliefs.
LittlePinky82 If you're not a Jew then why do you follow the old covenant?
For the last time, it's the Old Testament that I follow, AS WELL AS THE NEW.
The Bible is a whole. I don't see any reason to only follow half, especially when the two halves don't contradict each other in intent.
But what do I depend on in the end for my salvation? Jesus, of course.
Quote: And once again hon please for all things holy stop putting words in my mouth. I don't do it to you so I would, once again, like the same respect. Why is it so hard for you to do that? You obviously have no respect for myself since you continue to do things that quite frankly are disrespecting me such as putting words in my mouth.
It is so hard for me because of my living situation. My parents are deaf, foreign immigrants. Their understanding of English is minimal. Therefore, I judge everything they say based on tone and attitude. The literal words they say are only halfway significant. This has been ingrained in my brain since childhood. It's not easy to ignore.
But I do apologize for doing it nonetheless, because it really offends you. There's nothing else I can say except for sorry.
And as we'll see later in this post, you're doing the exact same thing to me.
Quote: And for you to "be through with this" is quite frankly irresponsible and immature. You don't care about studying the scriptures or growing as a person of faith but staying in your own little world.
You got that bolded part based on an attitude I was conveying. I never said anywhere specifically that I didn't care about the scriptures. I don't think you disrespect me because of this misinterpretation. I only think you're doing what is natural: making a conjecture based on what information you've been given.
You are, however, gravely wrong. I care passionately about growing in my faith. I care passionately about studying the scriptures. I do not stay in my own little world. I'm one of the most social people you'll ever meet.
Not to mention, you have no knowledge of the trials I have gone through in the last year. If it were not for the faith I have in Jesus Christ and His salvation, redemption, peace, mercy, and everything that is beautiful about Him, I would not be here right now. I'd be in some insane asylum. I'd be nothing.
Quote: Have you ever studied the scriptures by yourself or with other people and their view points or just your own type of people who believe like you and from hearing from other preachers and teachers who are of the same faith and do you stay in your own little bubble?
I study the scriptures a lot. I have since I was young. I love them and hold them dearly to my heart. They are the lamp unto my feet and the light unto my path. They are my spiritual armor. Without the scriptures, I'd be really confused.
You owe me an apology.
Because while I have misinterpreted your attitude on a subject, you have misinterpreted my entire faith.
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