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 Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:18 pm
Manic Martini Ssbmfreak36 Fiona is second. Her stats are crap, she comes with okay skills, but overall her usefulness is EXTREMELY hampered by the fact that her growths are not okay, and that there are just so many better options than her. Her growths are fine. Some of the highest in the game, overall, in fact. That's not what hampers her. What hampers her is how badly she's punished in the Dawn Brigade by her class and availability. She's around for two maps in all of part-1, one of them being 1-Endgame, both of them being indoors, so her mount is largely moot. Which makes her incredibly difficult to raise to second tier for Part 3 without basically feeding her most/all of your Bexp the DB has earned at that point. She'll need to be fed kills on those two maps, too, because her bases ARE pretty terribad and she's very easily killed. Even if you DO give her all your resources and Bexp because, dammit, you want to use this b***h, first map she's available for, which is an exp-fest, she can't move out to reach much of the combat because she's on a horse in a swamp. After that, it's just kind of hopeless unless you continue to feed her tons of more Bexp, but she's very wasteful with it since she has 360% growths overall, anyway, and the game is wrapping up by the time she'd ever be able to shine. She'd be great if the game allowed her to be. But, alas, it instead made her virtually impossible to raise. And so she is awful. Using Fiona is like trying to get to the top of a mountain by mountain-climbing without any safety precautions when there's a perfectly good escalator available that will take you to the same destination. But she has Earth affinity, which is the reason I don't consider her for absolute worst. Supporting someone with an Earth affinity, even if you have to avoid combat, must be worth something. Hm. I thought she had crap growths. I 'unno. I also seemed to forget her affinity as well. That earth.
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Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:29 pm
"What hampers her is how badly she's punished in the Dawn Brigade by her class and availability."
"She'd be great if the game allowed her to be"
I wonder how many times I've said that and how many times more I'll need to before people get this. Same thing with Vika.
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Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:40 pm
Nomad Rath "What hampers her is how badly she's punished in the Dawn Brigade by her class and availability.""She'd be great if the game allowed her to be"I wonder how many times I've said that and how many times more I'll need to before people get this. Same thing with Vika.
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Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:48 pm
Nomad Rath "What hampers her is how badly she's punished in the Dawn Brigade by her class and availability.""She'd be great if the game allowed her to be"I wonder how many times I've said that and how many times more I'll need to before people get this. Same thing with Vika. I understand this, too. But I won't vote on how things could have been when it comes to a unit's effectiveness in their game. Those units are horrible in the game in which they appear, not through any fault of their own but because the game won't let them be good. When I first played RD, I wanted to use Fiona and Vika. I really did. Especially Vika, since she's the only female Bird tribe member besides Leanne.
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Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:51 pm
...I wasn't talking about this round. In general, people always say that they suck. And they don't. The game sucks them.
But, if we're going to argue this, then I'll take your argument and give you a counter one of aren't there units out there that are both screwed by their game AND horrible on their own?
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Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:23 pm
Nomad Rath ...I wasn't talking about this round. In general, people always say that they suck. And they don't. The game sucks them. But, if we're going to argue this, then I'll take your argument and give you a counter one of aren't there units out there that are both screwed by their game AND horrible on their own?
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Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:54 pm
The game and the character can't be examined separately because the character exists within the context of that game, which determines whether they suck or not. This is actually part of the reason I ultimately went with Haar instead of Dean last week: Dean's game has a lot of ballista and indoor chapters, which he handles as well as any flier could in that game. But FE10 by comparison makes Haar's flying amazing with almost no drawbacks and utility no one else shares for a lot of things. How their games treat them is literally what changed my mind.
Fiona could be be great if certain circumstances didn't exist, but they do, and so she does suck. I think other people are still worse, however.
Vika, I simply won't say sucks. Because she doesn't. Her uses in 1-8 particularly are very valuable. Being really great for a few chapters, and without really requiring investment, is pretty damned good. So what if she's not good by the time she comes back? She still had three chapters of doing well, with flier utility, no less. She's not around for most of the game, sure, but of the 4 chapters you can use her for before endgame, she's good in three of them. That sounds like a good unit, not a bad one.
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Posted: Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:08 pm
Nomad Rath ...I wasn't talking about this round. In general, people always say that they suck. And they don't. The game sucks them. But, if we're going to argue this, then I'll take your argument and give you a counter one of aren't there units out there that are both screwed by their game AND horrible on their own? Sorry, I assumed you were. My bad. As for units that are screwed by their game and just bad on their own, I'm sure there are some. I would guess that most of them are pre-promotes that you get late in their games, but even then, I usually find that they're still just average compared to the other units instead of just plain bad. Do you have any examples of a unit that's already bad and is additionally screwed by their game? @Manic: That's why I changed my vote to Wendy. My personal preferences in gameplay style got in the way of objectivity, as I tend to invest heavily in the units I'm gonna be using later instead of the units that are immediately useful. (FE10 seems particularly hard on the laguz units you get in Part 1, but they're laguz, so... yeah. They are useful.)
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Posted: Sat Jul 06, 2013 8:05 am
This is just a friendly reminder that this week's topic will end tomorrow morning. If you are going to cast a vote I suggest you do it today.
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Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 6:40 am
I feel so green and indecisive... But I don't want to let this one go with so few votes.
Best: Seth, FE10!Haar, Levin!Arthur
You know, I've never used Arthur as fathered by Levin before. That's due to having played FE4 1.2 times. If Holsety Arthur is as good as he looks on paper (Gameplay itself included, natch), he deserves the spot. Based on all the fans, many better than I, who throw themselves at him like the wind beneath his feet/horse, he probably is. Like I needed another excuse to play FE4 again.
Didn't get to say this last time so I'll say the tipping point here, though FD already sorta said it. FE10 gives Haar an advantage, in addition to him being an overall awesome unit. The dracoknight's weakness to thunder doesn't just further distinct them from pegasus knights, but also clears the way for them where wind magic and bows might have once stopped them. Thunder mages are less common than wind mages and bow users, especially between the two combined. Haar's on easy street. Were he in any other FE (like, say, 9 discounting how he wasn't as good and not nearly as available), he wouldn't be as awesome as he is.
Seth is.
Toyed with some others too.
Worst: Ardan, Wendy, and...
I don't want to give it to Fiona or Meg. Fiona's already been explained, and Meg might be the worst in RD, but she is part of a group that has to make do with what it has for a while. You could easily bench Meg for the dawn brigade parts, but their numbers are limited, BEXP exists, and she can be used for what she's worth. Wendy doesn't even have that, and Meg doesn't get screwed over by her own game like Ardan does. Part of me really wants to give it to Dierdre for the extent that the plot prevents her from sticking around, but her staff usage, namely silence, prevents me from outright declaring her worst despite her bad stats and limited use. I could always say one of the FE3/12 missing sisters for bad availability and vote FE12 Maria for being the weakest... uh...
I think I'll do that, actually. Ardan, Wendy, and FE12!Maria. Maria might be responsible for one of the game's saddest moments for me (mostly in FE3), but that has no bearing on her as a unit. In fact, she's just a novice! She's not supposed to be super good! Folks like Malicia have the excuse of being around for the duration of the game to get good at what they do, but not her... though she was in Shadow Dragon... whatever.
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Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 10:15 am
...I actually have nothing to say here...The votes were as I expected for the most part.
This weeks topic is: Fighter/Warrior
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Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:00 pm
Hopefully I can liven things up here..
For best, I actually had to do some thinking. While Othin is pretty much death kill for everything forever and ever, he requires a detour in the first chapter to get his weapon, and is absent for the Manster chapters. On the other hand, Mr. Barts here comes in Chapter 2 in a game littered with lance users, and is there to stay with his good weapon ranks in addition to being the only natural Axefighter in FE11 who can sit through H5 mode, laughing with Sheeda. In the end though, I'll have to give my vote to Othin, as Ambush in FE5 is too good to pass up, and with jolly ol' Martin requiring scrolls to be good, him and Havan are your only two axe users if you don't feel like favouring Dagda, which may be better than one thinks.
Considering worst was even harder. On one hand, Axefighters from FE3 are possibly the most nerfed there is to the point that they are more a cameo than a serious unit, Ymir from FE12 comes four chapters away from Endgame in a game where only 12 units are allowed to be deployed. In a game with a truckload of characters, most of the greatest of units join in the first few chapters, do you seriously want to let one of them go for a mediocre late joiner who can use a Silver Axe at best? In the end though, Johalva not only has a mildly obnoxious recruitment, but has to compete with his mounted brother who at least has some use doing chip damage later on. He is stuck with the same logic as Arden: while both of them both show promise in terms of growth, both are proven moot, as the mounts ride ahead. And the desert following Chapter 6, oh god, littered with Dark Mages and things that Celice wants to kill for himself, no map EXP for you, Johalva.
My placement for worst will most definitely change as I read people's replies, so convince me, FEF!
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Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 2:27 pm
Best: Nolan
I knew that this vote was going to go to either Nolan or Boyd, but Nolan won me over by having better Skill, Speed, and Resistance growths. Nolan doesn't have as good HP, Strength, or Defense growths, but he's also much more likely to hit with his attacks, which he often will double against most enemies by Endgame. His Resistance growth also means that he can stand up to spell-users better than Boyd during the enemy's turn.
Since you get Nolan much earlier in the game, he also has more time and space to grow, even when you don't use him for several chapters. In the Dawn Brigade chapters (especially the late-game ones), Nolan becomes indispensable as he's a hard-hitter when a lot of the units aren't up-to-par with their opponents.
He's almost always the axe-user I bring with me at Endgame to wield Urvan.
Worst: Bord (FE11)
This one was hard, since I hardly ever use axe-wielding units. So, I looked up growth rates... and found that Bord has what I would consider the worst of the bunch. While I was originally going to go with Dorcas or Garcia, those two can at least make up for horrible Speed growths with decent Defense growths, making them less likely to die if someone gets two attacks against them. Bord is very likely to fall behind the rest when it comes to Speed, so he won't be doubling anyone any time soon and is more likely to be doubled himself with a low Defense. That's why I think he's the worst out of the games I've played.
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Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 8:58 pm
Welcome back Leafbuddy (leifbuddy?)! I don't know if I'll be the one to wow you, especially since you said Johalva before I could. I don't like these past minute discussion-light votes I've been posting. I at least want to get one in there earlier like I did before.
Best: I'm discovering through this thread that, with exceptions of course, I tend towards characters who have a greater niche when they come in when thinking of best. Therefore my thoughts immediately center on Nolan, the Dawn Brigade's REAL leader, who is pretty darn good in his own right, but also holds his own very well. Especially since many axe users in FE come in pairs (or threes in FE1/11), though those pairs and trios have characters that are decent in their own rights. It isn't the fact that he is the only main axe user in the Dawn Brigade. It's also the fact that he's one of the stronger and all around great units on the team, and among the better in the game. He offers more defense during parts of the game that really need it, though of course Aran and Sothe also exist. With limited numbers and the ground that the DB has to cover and defend, that's a good title to have. As with Edward and Leonardo, he also gets his own weapon, and Tarvos is pretty sweet. I'll give FE10 this credit in its storytelling through gameplay. While characters like Boyd and Gatrie might not stand out amongst their team of greatness, characters in the much more desperate Dawn Brigade do stand out when they shine, and really show their worth where other characters wouldn't when you need to make do with what you have. Nolan is a great example of this.
Worst: Like I said earlier, I'm giving it to Johalva. Would you put in extra effort to not recruit the mounted Johan so that you can get his footbound brother? I will give Johalva this: Being footbound in Gen 2 from the beginning isn't necessarily as bad as it was in Gen 1, since there are less mounts from the start, from my more limited experience. But of course, it will bite him later as characters, join, surpass him in skill and priority and/or earn their mounts. It's not worth having an axe user if you can't get the time to use him unless you gimp yourself. Why not recruit Johan?
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Posted: Sun Jul 07, 2013 9:48 pm
SOOO torn between Othin and Nolan on this one.
-Othin is the pinnacle of Fighter/Warrior offense. He is solidly more offensive than Nolan.
-Nolan is the pinnacle of Fighter/Warrior defense. He is solidly more survivable than Othin.
Othin has Wrath and gets the Pugi Axe in the first chapter of the game. Tanya and Evayle have forced deployment for the first few chapters as well for free support, too. Hello free 20 crit, hit,and avoid! Great to have you making Othin extra awesome right out the gate while Othin becomes strong enough to not need you later on (or, when in doubt, just Pugi Axe s**t: it makes Othin's offense awesome basically always. As does Wrath. Supports unneeded). We basically have a unit that joins in the first chapter of the game with an amazing personal weapon able to one-round reliably right out the gate who will be able to one-round reliably for the entirety of the game. To my knowledge, no other Fighter/Warrior in the series does that. Offensively, FE9Boyd and Nolan start decent and become great (they're not one-rounding whatever they want as soon as they join the way Othin can, that's for sure), Dagda starts great and becomes decent.
Nolan, on the other, hand, shows up and is immediately one of the DB's bulkiest members, and by extension, most survivable. He has an Earth affinity and most of Part 1 to actually develop a B or an A with another Earth affinity member (I recommend Volug, but Zihark is just as viable) to become a dodge-tank in Part 3 where you need to be able to take much harder hits with the DB and where your options are quite limited for accomplishing this. Being able to dodge most if not all hits, on top of being able to take at least a couple, makes him quasi-invincible in group that will love him for it.
Comes down to offense or defense in a way, and both can make up for the opposite quite well in different ways, too. I really can't decide yet.
Worst: Wade
Take Dorcas, subtract Lyn Mode for a super easy jump on levels, subtract some growths, make your alternative immediately faster than you on top of their higher Spd growth (Dorcas might have a lower Spd growth than Bartre, but Dorcas also has a higher base Spd and access to easy levels to suplement that in Lyn Mode if you want, so it actually takes a while for Bartre to become faster, and even longer for the lead to matter).
That's FE6's Wade.
Johan>>>>>Johalva because horses in FE4, but I'm not going to hold that against Johalva. It'd be like saying FE7 Karel is bad because getting Karel means not getting Harken, and Harken>Karel. Harken is definitely better, but that doesn't necessarily make Karel bad. Standard infantry movement is better than a Knight's movement, and you KNOW you use people with the same movement as him like Lakche and Shanan and such. Definitely not good, but I don't think he's too bad.
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