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 Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:32 pm
Newsweek ArticleThis is a pretty interesting article concerning a documentary in which pro-lifers are baffled by the question, "If abortion is made illegal, what kind of punishment should a woman receive if she pursues an abortion anyway?" Pertinent snips: The article The man behind the camera is asking demonstrators who want abortion criminalized what the penalty should be for a woman who has one nonetheless. You have rarely seen people look more gobsmacked. It's as though the guy has asked them to solve quadratic equations. Here are a range of responses: "I've never really thought about it." "I don't have an answer for that." "I don't know." "Just pray for them." The article "How have we come this far in the debate and been oblivious to the logical ramifications of making abortion illegal?" June [president of Planned Parenthood of Greater Iowa] says. Perhaps by ignoring or infantilizing women, turning them into "victims" of their own free will. State statutes that propose punishing only a physician suggest the woman was merely some addled bystander who happened to find herself in the wrong stirrups at the wrong time. At first I was surprised, expecting at least one of the lifers to say, for instance, that the woman should get the same penalty as one would receive for murder. The explanation the article author goes on to give, though, does make a lot of sense. The mind that does not explicitly believe in a woman's right to the custody and maintenance of her own body might subconsciously follow that the woman would not have any real culpability as to what happens to said body. Thoughts?
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Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:25 pm
This question does remind me of a t-shirt I saw once. It said "Make abortion fair, kill the mother and father too!"
It made me sick.
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Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:39 pm
It shows a clear logical disconnect:
If it's a BAYBEEEEE!!!!!!, then why don't the mothers get the same punishment as women such as Andrea Yates?
I guess all we are is the property of whatever male manages to claim us. Maybe they'll send the sperm donator to jail, because us poor, pathetic women just don't know what we're doing?
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Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 7:53 pm
Freedom Fire This question does remind me of a t-shirt I saw once. It said "Make abortion fair, kill the mother and father too!" It made me sick. There really should be a shirt that reads "Wanna truly be pro-life? Kill yourself."
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:39 am
RoseRose It shows a clear logical disconnect: If it's a BAYBEEEEE!!!!!!, then why don't the mothers get the same punishment as women such as Andrea Yates? I guess all we are is the property of whatever male manages to claim us. Maybe they'll send the sperm donator to jail, because us poor, pathetic women just don't know what we're doing? Not only does it show that logical disconnect you've pointed out (QFE)... But it shows just how anti-women the intuitions and sentiments of pro-lifers actually are... even though they don't ever seem to outwardly realize it - women are too infantile (to quote the article) to know what is best for their futures and their bodies and need pro-lifers to make that decision for them, but not only this, they are so infantile (hello 1890s) that they can't be held responsible for any illegal reproductive acts they perform. Seriously, how can anyone sincerely be pro-life after giving it an honest thought out analysis?
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:24 am
Talon-chan RoseRose It shows a clear logical disconnect: If it's a BAYBEEEEE!!!!!!, then why don't the mothers get the same punishment as women such as Andrea Yates? I guess all we are is the property of whatever male manages to claim us. Maybe they'll send the sperm donator to jail, because us poor, pathetic women just don't know what we're doing? Not only does it show that logical disconnect you've pointed out (QFE)... But it shows just how anti-women the intuitions and sentiments of pro-lifers actually are... even though they don't ever seem to outwardly realize it - women are too infantile (to quote the article) to know what is best for their futures and their bodies and need pro-lifers to make that decision for them, but not only this, they are so infantile (hello 1890s) that they can't be held responsible for any illegal reproductive acts they perform. Seriously, how can anyone sincerely be pro-life after giving it an honest thought out analysis? Not only that, but even if we SHOULD make a decision, we were obviously led astray by an abortion doctor. Basically invalidating any decision we make. Not only are we not responsible for illegal reproductive actions, by extrapolation, we are not responsible for our medical decisions. So... to give an example of exactly where this is heading: "You want a DNR? Then you better ask your husband, cause you sure can't make medical decisions!" I am human, I make mistakes. All HUMANS do. That doesn't make me irresponsible. So, if pro-lifers think abortion is wrong, and I have one, hold ME responsible. I am not a child. I am not the property of my father or my fiance. I can make my own choices. I can lead my own life. A child is not held responsible... and even then, a TWELVE YEAR OLD in some cases is held to be criminally responsible. I work at a childcare, and the oldest kids are 11 years old. Some are very mature for their ages... but they are NOT adults. I'm 20 years old. The fact that they are not adults is why I am there. I am an adult. Damnit, let me BE an adult. No MAN is going to make me decide ANYTHING. The only one who has ANY say in my decisions is my fiance, and I have equal say in his. Even if I should choose to have less say, it should be MY choice to have that kind of relationship. You know, saying a woman doesn't know better opens the door very, very wide to abuse. A man is more adult than a woman, so the abuse becomes the woman's fault, because the man is just "punishing" the woman for acting out! And pro-life isn't anti-woman. rolleyes
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:29 am
Freedom Fire This question does remind me of a t-shirt I saw once. It said "Make abortion fair, kill the mother and father too!" It made me sick. I saw that shirt once. A woman protesting outside a clinic, holding up a dead-fetus sign was wearing it. stare I glared at her heavily from inside my car.
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 8:19 am
*roflmao*
Anti-Choicer: "SAVE TEH BABEEEZZ!! Make abortion illegal?!"
Choicer: "Then what?"
Anti-Choicer: "Then what what? No more dieing babies."
Choicer: "Yes, but what about the penalties?"
Anti-Choicer: "What penalties? It's all about teh babies!!!"
Choicer: *headdesk*
EDIT: The ever evasive KP is in the ADT can someone please ask him this question?
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:20 am
Jesus.
"Punishment? Women are childish retards who can't make their own decisions and held responsible!"
Wtf is up with wanting to punish abortion doctors and yet not mothers? Not saying that EITHER should be punished but I definitely agree-- Pro-Lifers are essentially invalidating women and their mental ability to make their own decisions with that stance. It shows how anti-woman Pro-Lifers truly are.
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:45 am
It's also worth considering that on some level, these pro-lifers consider women so weak-willed that they will simply comply if abortion is made illegal, or so impressionable that making abortion illegal will somehow convince them all that it is wrong. Overall, I think there is an unwillingness to admit that people could possibly, really, after all, deep in their hearts disagree, so vehemently, particularly in regards to something they themselves are so convinced of. I believe that would account for the surprise when it is suggested that maybe you can't convince everybody to agree with you, no matter how difficult it may become to stand by their contrary opinion. I have no doubt this is a pretty bad challenge to a view they hold to be so elementary.
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:52 pm
Every lifer I've asked say women who have abortions should be punished like murderers, or not be legally punished and just be condemned to Hell. confused
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 1:54 pm
Karla Marx Every lifer I've asked say women who have abortions should be punished like murderers, or not be legally punished and just be condemned to Hell. confused What about condoms and menstruation? WHY DOESN"T ANYBODY CARE ABOUT THE GENOCIDE THAT HAPPENS TO THOSE POOR POOR SPERM AND EGGS??!?!?!!
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:27 pm
MGadda It's also worth considering that on some level, these pro-lifers consider women so weak-willed that they will simply comply if abortion is made illegal, or so impressionable that making abortion illegal will somehow convince them all that it is wrong. Very true. A lot of pro-lifers are the kind of people that follow the law blindly and believe that when a law prohibits something, that law must be right because it's the law. Therefore, they would probably expect others to have that same type of attitude. "Abortion is okay! Wait, it's illegal? Oh, then abortion must be wrong!"
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:38 pm
murasame blade Karla Marx Every lifer I've asked say women who have abortions should be punished like murderers, or not be legally punished and just be condemned to Hell. confused What about condoms and menstruation? WHY DOESN"T ANYBODY CARE ABOUT THE GENOCIDE THAT HAPPENS TO THOSE POOR POOR SPERM AND EGGS??!?!?!! Eggs and sperm don't have the genes of both of their parents, so they aren't babies yet. Its truly 'life' at conception. rolleyes Apparently.
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Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2007 5:58 pm
More proof the lifers haven't really thought about this that much.
I saw a video of that, and the lifers they were asking were adults. I've noticed that it's the little teen/pre-teen lifers who think women should be charged with murder if they have an abortion. The adults are all like "well, she's been punished enough, and has to live with the guilt".
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