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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:07 pm
As odd as it may sound, I rarely get a chance to hear or explore Jewish thoughts on evolution. I always hear Christians yelling and atheists yelling...but we've been pretty quiet on the issue. So, in the interest of discussion, here are my views. I'd love to hear other people's opinions on the topic.
Caveat: I am not a Rabbinical scholar. The following is merely my opinion...however, my opinion is based on that of several Rabbinical scholars so it's not complete heresy or nonsense...I hope.
A lot of people tend to think evolution is godless. That couldn't be farther from the truth. Evolution is just a way of explaining how earth, life, and human beings got to be the way they are. Just because The Divine doesn't have to be part of the equation doesn't mean that there is nothing Divine about evolution.
Evolutionary science is big, and oftentimes hard to understand if you haven't studied it well. So I'll compare it to something you all should know pretty well: political science. Namely...the political science behind the Nation of Israel.
Now, political science lets us look at historical events and analyze why certain happenings led to the formation of Israel. Likewise, evolution lets us look at historical events and analyze how certain happenings led humanity to where it is today. While an atheist can look at the political science behind the creation of Israel from a secular perspective...a Jew can't. It's just impossible for us to look at Israel and say "There was no divine influence here."
Likewise, we should be able to look at evolution and marvel at the divine hand that guided these complex events that led to our world...just as we marvel at the hand that led Israel. We wouldn't be foolish enough to say "Israel exists because GD says it should. The End" and ignore the years of history, strife, and effort behind the country's birth. So why would we be foolish enough to say the same thing about earth?
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 1:10 pm
My dear girl, thank you for this thread. I've always wondered as well!
I think that there is a certain degree of evolution involved with Creationism. I do think G*d has used our planet for other things besides humans, and I do think evolution exists as it is still happening today.
I really want to hear other peoples opinions of it though.
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 5:23 pm
This was transelated from our textbook summary of Machshevet Yisyoel - Dat u'mada (basically translated as "Jewish thought - Religion and science"). The following is the theory of Rabbi Yehezkiel Epshtein
According to Judaism, creation was not "inevitable", rather it was by G-d's will. As long as this concept is understood and accepted, there is no clash between the theory of evolution and the Torah, because then we may say that it was simply g-d's will that the world be created through evolution.
The theory of evolution does not stand against the Torah, in fact, it is very appropriate for Judaism's concepts, which state that everything evolves and changes slowly - Nothing stays the same way it is, no matter how slow or small the change is. Nothing just "happens", everything takes time. This fact is true for everything - even people.
But one may ask - "If we look into the book of Genesis at the story of creation, we see a few things which don't fit well with the theory of evolution. How is it possible to say the creation was slow? The Torah says it took only seven days!". However, if we look closer, we can point out the solution to these problems.
1. The stages of evolution were very slow, each stage was based on it's previous stage. This is what the Torah tried to emphasize. 2. For that reason, the term "Day" should not be taken literally, the same way that the "And g-d said" should not be taken literally. The meaning of the term "Day" was a metaphor, hinting at the chronological order of creation.
For G-d, the term "Day" does not have a limited meaning, as it has been stated in Psalms "Elef shanim kayom etmol ki ya'avor" (A thousand years is but like the passing of a day for G-d). The amount of time which passed during these stages is not defined, and the term "Day" was merely meant to show there was a chronological order in which G-d set evolution to take it's path.
The more science evolves and discovers the truths and working of G-d's world, we can understand G-d better through the way his world works. Creation itself is teaching us the lesson of change, nothing ever changes suddenly, and everything is ever-changing.
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:32 am
nathan_ngl This was transelated from our textbook summary of Machshevet Yisyoel - Dat u'mada (basically translated as "Jewish thought - Religion and science"). The following is the theory of Rabbi Yehezkiel EpshteinAccording to Judaism, creation was not "inevitable", rather it was by G-d's will. As long as this concept is understood and accepted, there is no clash between the theory of evolution and the Torah, because then we may say that it was simply g-d's will that the world be created through evolution. The theory of evolution does not stand against the Torah, in fact, it is very appropriate for Judaism's concepts, which state that everything evolves and changes slowly - Nothing stays the same way it is, no matter how slow or small the change is. Nothing just "happens", everything takes time. This fact is true for everything - even people. But one may ask - "If we look into the book of Genesis at the story of creation, we see a few things which don't fit well with the theory of evolution. How is it possible to say the creation was slow? The Torah says it took only seven days!". However, if we look closer, we can point out the solution to these problems. 1. The stages of evolution were very slow, each stage was based on it's previous stage. This is what the Torah tried to emphasize. 2. For that reason, the term "Day" should not be taken literally, the same way that the "And g-d said" should not be taken literally. The meaning of the term "Day" was a metaphor, hinting at the chronological order of creation. For G-d, the term "Day" does not have a limited meaning, as it has been stated in Psalms "Elef shanim kayom etmol ki ya'avor" (A thousand years is but like the passing of a day for G-d). The amount of time which passed during these stages is not defined, and the term "Day" was merely meant to show there was a chronological order in which G-d set evolution to take it's path. The more science evolves and discovers the truths and working of G-d's world, we can understand G-d better through the way his world works. Creation itself is teaching us the lesson of change, nothing ever changes suddenly, and everything is ever-changing. I think it's Dr. Epshtein. I don't think he's a Rabbi. (I knew that if you saw that you'd put his answer here biggrin ).
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:05 am
I'm just glad Judaism and science can mix! 3nodding
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:36 am
My ideas of G-D and the nature of the world was Spinosa point of view.
G-D created the world, then sat back and watched it develop, taking a very passive approach to the development of plants and animals.
One of the tenants of Judiasm has always been to seek, aquire and share knowledge and truth. You can't write off life and bio-diversity as "it was done in a week."
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:06 am
LordNeuf You can't write off life and bio-diversity as "it was done in a week." Yes you can. You see, most of the proves for the world's age is within fossils. First of all, like any other science, it's not 100% accurate. Thus, you can not relate it as truth. Second, fossils could be a new creation that G-d put in the world, shaped it to look as if it's age was millions of years. And a third explanation is, that the physic rules as we know them today may not be the same rules that worked back there. If someone could prove that the physic rules in the past were the same as today, then you could claim that the world exists for millions of years. Oh, and about the part when you said that Quote: G-d sat back and watched it develop, taking a very passive approach to the development of plants and animals , well, it's really not true.
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:28 am
hmm....Just a note before this starts to get controversial, never say, "That's not true." Everybody has their own beliefs, and nobody knows for certain if it's true or not- that's why they're called beliefs.
I personally doubt G-d suddenly put fossils in the world to make it seem as though it was old- I'm more of the evolution standpoint myself. While nobody can ever tell for sure if science is true, the same goes for religion. Thus, I go for what makes the most sense logically a lot.
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darkphoenix1247 Vice Captain
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 12:35 pm
darkphoenix1247 hmm....Just a note before this starts to get controversial, never say, "That's not true." Everybody has their own beliefs, and nobody knows for certain if it's true or not- that's why they're called beliefs. I personally doubt G-d suddenly put fossils in the world to make it seem as though it was old- I'm more of the evolution standpoint myself. While nobody can ever tell for sure if science is true, the same goes for religion. Thus, I go for what makes the most sense logically a lot. Okay, in my opinion, it's not true.
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:22 pm
No offense taken... I have my beliefs he has his. We're not supposed to agree on every little thing. My interpretation is mine, his is his, and neither one of us is going to change the other's mind.
I believe in Spinoza's definetion of creation.
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:20 pm
What about the idea that perhaps G-d's time is completely different from our own? Who says one day to Him is only 24 hours?
...It's a thought.
Perhaps 7 days is really 7 billion years? It's a stretch, but we don't have any Atheists in here telling us we're all wrong, so might as well analyze every theory.
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:46 pm
kingpinsqeezels What about the idea that perhaps G-d's time is completely different from our own? Who says one day to Him is only 24 hours? ...It's a thought. Perhaps 7 days is really 7 billion years? It's a stretch, but we don't have any Atheists in here telling us we're all wrong, so might as well analyze every theory. Did you read my post? sweatdrop
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:54 pm
darkphoenix1247 hmm....Just a note before this starts to get controversial, never say, "That's not true." Everybody has their own beliefs, and nobody knows for certain if it's true or not- that's why they're called beliefs. He made the common misconception that Rabbi Kook writes about in his book (and so do many others). Most of these theories which state that g-d is passive in the world develop from the lack of knowledge, or a mistake in the logic of the theorem. Of course, this is his theory, but since I'm pretty well read on the subject, I suggest he read these books - Though of course, we could go into hours arguing who's "logic is undeniable"... And we all know that's pointless 3nodding .
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:01 pm
nathan_ngl kingpinsqeezels What about the idea that perhaps G-d's time is completely different from our own? Who says one day to Him is only 24 hours? ...It's a thought. Perhaps 7 days is really 7 billion years? It's a stretch, but we don't have any Atheists in here telling us we're all wrong, so might as well analyze every theory. Did you read my post? sweatdrop Errr sweatdrop Sorry. But hey...at least I concluded that on my own! Now I feel smart! 3nodding
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Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:38 pm
actually, nathan is correct on Judiasm's perspective on evolution... but every Jew has his own opinion, so you don't have to agree. I, for one, do agree, but there is really no "right" answer, just different answers, some compatible, others, not so much.
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