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 Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 11:10 am
In a lot of fantasy writing these days, there are an awful lot of clichés.Dictionary.com Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Sourcecli·ché /kliˈʃeɪ, klɪ-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[klee-shey, kli-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. a trite, stereotyped expression; a sentence or phrase, usually expressing a popular or common thought or idea, that has lost originality, ingenuity, and impact by long overuse, as sadder but wiser, or strong as an ox.2. (in art, literature, drama, etc.) a trite or hackneyed plot, character development, use of color, musical expression, etc. 3. anything that has become trite or commonplace through overuse. 4. British Printing. a. a stereotype or electrotype plate. b. a reproduction made in a like manner. –adjective 5. trite; hackneyed; stereotyped; clichéd. Also, cli·che. [Origin: 1825–35; < F: stereotype plate, stencil, cliché, n. use of ptp. of clicher to make such a plate, said to be imit. of the sound of the metal pressed against the matrix] —Synonyms 1. platitude, bromide, stereotype, commonplace. Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006. American Heritage Dictionary American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Sourcecli·ché also cliche (klē-shā') Pronunciation Key n. 1. A trite or overused expression or idea: "Even while the phrase was degenerating to cliché in ordinary public use . . . scholars were giving it increasing attention" (Anthony Brandt). 2. A person or character whose behavior is predictable or superficial: "There is a young explorer . . . who turns out not to be quite the cliche expected" (John Crowley).[French, past participle of clicher, to stereotype (imitative of the sound made when the matrix is dropped into molten metal to make a stereotype plate).] Synonyms Synonyms: These nouns denote an expression or idea that has lost its originality or force through overuse: a short story weakened by clichés; the old bromide that we are what we eat; uttered the commonplace "welcome aboard"; a eulogy full of platitudes; a once-original thought that has become a truism.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2006 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
For example, my pirate captain doesn't follow the general stereotypes as almost every other pirate does. He doesn't have the overly clichéd pirate accent that Barbossa obviously does in Pirates of the Caribbean, and in my book he's only 21 years of age. He's classy, flamboyant, mischievous, generous and kind, though he's also the rogue that everyone expects him to be. He also has a very deep and serious side to him as well.
Another example of a cliché is that elves are always looked at as being "higher up" than humans, that they have heightened magical power and are above all else either very tall and slender or in the myth of Santa, short. Most of us know them as being the tall and slender sort that has been derived from Tolkien's work over the years. I do have elves in my work, but as yet they don't play a large part in it. My elves tend to be of similar heights to most humans, and although they still have the general slim build and can't get the level of physical strength that humans can get to, they're not much different but they keep to the ways of nature in most cases.
Discuss...
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:55 pm
I have one, that all vampires are evil and just want is to kill and drink blood. But....the ones you created not all of them are like that.
But...your pirate captain...*dies* man he is so..lovely.
I guess it is just how stories are now seen, from the different stories that go around and also the myths that you hear. People make it their own I Guess.
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Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:32 pm
Dragoon_Arcadia I have one, that all vampires are evil and just want is to kill and drink blood. But....the ones you created not all of them are like that.
But...your pirate captain...*dies* man he is so..lovely.
I guess it is just how stories are now seen, from the different stories that go around and also the myths that you hear. People make it their own I Guess.
All of the vampires in my world do enjoy killing and of course drinking blood (most people enjoy what they eat), but it depends on the reasons behind their actions. The few good vampires in my world simply don't murder the innocent.
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:59 am
I will address my opinion toward some of the cliches above.
1. Cliche in stories. I think that cliche (a.k.a. predictability is very important in children's stories). First it's not clich to kids because they've never heard it before. But more importantly stories teach children morality and life lessens, and departing from the norm might skew their perception of the world they live in. For adults however, cliche can make things dry and boring. Unlike kids we have seen it all before. But still I think that even adult stories follow predictable patterns on a larger scale. Best example is that good guys (almost) always win. Even adults expect stroies to conform to their cultural perception of the worlds around them. Stories oftne differ from one another not so much in the end result, but in the way you get there, with different twists and turns for different characters along the way.
2. Elves: Are elves above humans? One on one - definitely. Being a human I don't take offense at this at all. Elves are above humans for the same reason that humans are above rodents, or oak trees are above dandelions. In fact that second analogy is the best. The long lived oak trees are mighty but few in number. A dandelion pales in comparison to a mighty oak tree, but can take over a field like no oak trees ever could. This gives humans a certain strength over elves when looking at the two as entire races. Also (real life) human minds created fantasy races like dwarves, elves, and gnomes, to represent certain aspects of our personality, The races are often better at what they do than humans, but obviously more limited as well by their specialization. Elves can do magic better than humans; Dwarves can mine better than humans; Gnomes can commune with nature better than humans; But only humans can do all of them. Sorry, I strayed away from elves there - but I made my point.
3. Vampires: I don't want to repeat the lengthy discussion of vampires from the old guild here - but I still believe as I did before that all vampires are evil because of the nature of what they are. Evil is what creates the vampire. No evil = No vampire (at least by my understanding).
(P.S. if someone wants to teach me how to type an e with a thing over it - for words like anime, cliche, cafe, and resume - I gladly will do so from now on.)
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 8:11 am
First I would like to say I really liked SirKirkbanes outlook one elves (very nice! I will have to remember that one.)
Secondly it is sometimes important for cliches to exist. To experienced people of the fantasy world we ( i would like to think ) have a better grasp of how characters work and the perception of them. But to those who don't dwell in the area of fantasy much, these cliches serve as lifeboats or platforms. For example some one who doesn't know much reads something about a dwarf warrior and what he did in the battle. The accented dwarf tone, and the love to fight help create the image of the dwarf for those who don't know the diversity of it all.
I myself am not a big fan of cliches, but in a writers sense it can help explain actions or thoughts of a character without taking the ten pages to provide a back story. (Though Im a big fan of backstories and eat up every little tid-bit)
So i guess it really depends on who you are writing for, Some one who knows the worlds and races or some one who is just picking up on it for the first time. Heh i know a few times in my fantasy ramblings I have had to explain "why" elves do this or gnomes "act" like that to people who know nothing on the subject.
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:36 am
SirKirbance I will address my opinion toward some of the cliches above. 1. Cliche in stories. I think that cliche (a.k.a. predictability is very important in children's stories). First it's not clich to kids because they've never heard it before. But more importantly stories teach children morality and life lessens, and departing from the norm might skew their perception of the world they live in. For adults however, cliche can make things dry and boring. Unlike kids we have seen it all before. But still I think that even adult stories follow predictable patterns on a larger scale. Best example is that good guys (almost) always win. Even adults expect stroies to conform to their cultural perception of the worlds around them. Stories oftne differ from one another not so much in the end result, but in the way you get there, with different twists and turns for different characters along the way. 2. Elves: Are elves above humans? One on one - definitely. Being a human I don't take offense at this at all. Elves are above humans for the same reason that humans are above rodents, or oak trees are above dandelions. In fact that second analogy is the best. The long lived oak trees are mighty but few in number. A dandelion pales in comparison to a mighty oak tree, but can take over a field like no oak trees ever could. This gives humans a certain strength over elves when looking at the two as entire races. Also (real life) human minds created fantasy races like dwarves, elves, and gnomes, to represent certain aspects of our personality, The races are often better at what they do than humans, but obviously more limited as well by their specialization. Elves can do magic better than humans; Dwarves can mine better than humans; Gnomes can commune with nature better than humans; But only humans can do all of them. Sorry, I strayed away from elves there - but I made my point. 3. Vampires: I don't want to repeat the lengthy discussion of vampires from the old guild here - but I still believe as I did before that all vampires are evil because of the nature of what they are. Evil is what creates the vampire. No evil = No vampire (at least by my understanding). (P.S. if someone wants to teach me how to type an e with a thing over it - for words like anime, cliche, cafe, and resume - I gladly will do so from now on.)
If evil creates vampires, then what of those who have been turned into what they are against their will? Characters such as Lestat and Louis in Interview with the Vampire, or Meier Link and D (though he's half) in Vampire Hunter D. Those characters have been created outside the stereotype because it has been seen SO many times before, and the imagination is not designed to completely copy everything that has already been done over and over and over again.
It's also like saying all Dragons are evil. SK, if you say that isn't true, then why do many Christians believe the Dragon is a symbol of the Devil? I created Dragons in my world as being extremely powerful beings with sentience that have their own motives and agendas just like ourselves, and most of them are in allegiance with the civilisation I mentioned earlier.
The elves in Tolkien's world annoyed the heck out of me because they were created to be the definitions of good, morale and dignity and they're portrayed in such a way that makes them look arrogant and selfish in my opinion. I decided to make the elves more like the Native Americans in my world, although some still have a tendency to go solo or rogue.
I have no idea what I will do with Dwarves, because they're ALWAYS living underground, always wield hammers and axes, are always the best at creating weapons and armour, and are always the best miners. I have halfings though, and they're similar to the Kender in Dragonlance.
I have read SO many novels that are so full of these clichés that quite frankly I'm getting bored with it. In some areas I have made both some minor and major alterations to the conventional fantasy story, and it's about time someone did in my opinion.
Personally SK, with most of what you said, I disagree. I agree with the origins of where these things came from, but saying they should always remain that way is wrong in my thinking. However, about the accent thing, I simply searched for an online character map a long while back and have one saved in a word document. I just copy and paste them. I don't know how to do it on the keyboard.
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:43 am
In addition to that, I know clichés are important, but too many of them is a problem. When I watched Rune Soldier, I was able to predict almost EVERYTHING that was going to happen, and although I loved the series that element of it really bugged me.
Many of the well-known clichés need to be kept true in some ways, but other areas can be tweaked and altered so that they don't end up being exactly the same for all eternity.
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Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:54 am
SirKirbance 3. Vampires: I don't want to repeat the lengthy discussion of vampires from the old guild here - but I still believe as I did before that all vampires are evil because of the nature of what they are. Evil is what creates the vampire. No evil = No vampire (at least by my understanding).
I believe you can ahve good vampires and bad. It's just left to what you want to believe.
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Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:05 am
Their nature, I would agree, is evil. However, in the way we know them, they still have their own minds and can make their own choices in the way they live. I would say they can be of "good alignment". If you put it in D&D terms, you could say they can be of a chaotic good alignment.
I am just so sick and tired of the same thing happening over and over again in fantasy. There have to be some stereotypical involvement I agree, but there's just too much of it nowadays. I believe it's time to add some originality in there.
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Posted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:57 pm
oh yeah I agree with mel. Archetypes are so BORING! Clichés are so cliché!! (if that makes sense...) There are so many stories out there already, I guess it's hard to be original without overlapping.
oh well neutral
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Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:37 am
mitsuchel oh yeah I agree with mel. Archetypes are so BORING! Clichés are so cliché!! (if that makes sense...) There are so many stories out there already, I guess it's hard to be original without overlapping.
oh well neutral
After I sent off my short story to the publisher, he replied with very few criticisms - which is brilliant I might add! However, he found my pirate's accent/dialect too strong, when in fact the way he sounds isn't like that. He assumed that his voice was something like out of Treasure Island. Not what I'd intended. Therefore, a.) not made it clear what his voice was like at the beginnimg, and b.) the publisher was thinking along the lines of a stereotype.
Clichés are so strong these days that this is what it does. Even the publisher is so used to them that he assumes my character has the same kind of dialect as pretty much every other. Because of that, these days us writers have to be careful how we word things if we're not trying to follow a stereotype.
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Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:49 pm
SK, sweetie, copy/paste works great! wink
Also (at least with the font that Gaia uses, and with our computer) if you hold down the Alt button and type 0233 you will insert a é.
For those that this may benefit:Quote: 1. overused expression: a phrase or word that has lost its original effectiveness or power from overuse 2. overused idea: an overused activity or notion
For me the enjoyment in reading is in watching the character(s) developing and overcoming challenges. Going off what SK said good overcoming evil could be considered cliché, yet most readers do not want to read a book in which the hero/ine is defeated in the end. Sure, there may be temporary setbacks, but in the end...
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Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:18 am
Jenannen SK, sweetie, copy/paste works great! wink
Also (at least with the font that Gaia uses, and with our computer) if you hold down the Alt button and type 0233 you will insert a é.
For those that this may benefit:Quote: 1. overused expression: a phrase or word that has lost its original effectiveness or power from overuse 2. overused idea: an overused activity or notion
For me the enjoyment in reading is in watching the character(s) developing and overcoming challenges. Going off what SK said good overcoming evil could be considered cliché, yet most readers do not want to read a book in which the hero/ine is defeated in the end. Sure, there may be temporary setbacks, but in the end...
When it comes to overcoming evil, that's the story of this world as well. Those who are Christians or those who have different faiths will know this is true as well. Armageddon is a prophecy, and I personally believe it. It is the definition of the final battle between good and evil.
I think the concept of overcoming evil is not just in fantasy. It's everywhere. Robin Hood is the loveable rogue who sought to get rid of thw wicked Sheriff of Nottingham. It's a legend over here in England, but there's a place in Yorkshire where his grave is apparently marked.
Other examples include crime novels. The criminal is the one sought after, and in most cases he/she is caught, and therefore the evil has been overcome. In fiction, you'll find stories of girls who have grown up and are in the midst of making their careers, and there's a handsome businessman who uses her for his own ideals, and charms her. Everyone knows he's bad news, but she doesn't see it until right near the end. She almost makes a terrible mistake, but he's caught for fraud and sent to prison. In both of those cases, it is overcoming some kind of evil.
It doesn't matter what genre you're reading or writing about, good versus evil is always going to be there. I personally think it can come under the same category as what Jen says about races. It's not the race, but it's how the race is used that becomes the cliché. In good versus evil, I think it depends on what is what and who is who.
An example of good versus evil being clichéd are overcoming evil overlords that are extremely powerful. The most well-known is Sauron in Lord of the Rings. Ah! Wait! Lord of the Rings was one of the true fantasies, ok? However!
You have: the early Final Fantasies including Golbez (Final Fantasy IV) and ExDeath (Final Fantasy V), along with Mehrunes Dagon (Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion), Grandia II (although the one in this game is meant to be a god), and currently I'm only coming up with games. There's just a few examples anyway.
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Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:38 am
DM_Melkhar Then there will never be any originality. You will never like my books then, because there are a vampires that are not twisted evil (though they are few), there is a civilisation of humans that can do magic far better than any other race, though elves still hold most of the moral high ground but they're not perfect like what people have made them out to be. I don't think it is true to say that I wouldn't like your books, but if you are going to have things like vampires and elves that are strongly stereotyped it is going to be that much more work for you to direct the readers mind away from those stereotypes. I once had a discussion with Jen about how we read books. I told her that often when reading a book I will imagine a certain place or a certain character or a certain object a certain way. Sometimes further on in the book more information is provided that shows the place/character/or object is not how I initially imagined it. In these cases I will usually continue reading the book imagining the thing how I did initially, rather than how it was clarified to be. Jen said she felt guilty about it, but admitted to doing the same. This could be an issue with steryotypes and cliches as well. Readers may come into the story with them and have a hard time thinking differently. Jen's brother likes the Driddzt books by R.A. Salvatore. Driddzt is an obvious break from the stereytype of his dark elf kind, but it is always obviuos that he is the exception. Also to clarify the vampire issue, I think there is some confusion between vampires and vampire spawn. Vampires are undead corpses whose souls are rejected from heaven and hell. They are obviously evil. Vampire spawn are persons who became subject to vampirism by being bitten on the neck by a vampire. Vampire spawn might not be evil, but true vampires are. That's my understanding. Dracula is a true vampire for example.
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Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:53 am
DM_Melkhar An example of good versus evil being clichéd are overcoming evil overlords that are extremely powerful. The most well-known is Sauron in Lord of the Rings. Ah! Wait! Lord of the Rings was one of the true fantasies, ok? However!
You have: the early Final Fantasies including Golbez (Final Fantasy IV) and ExDeath (Final Fantasy V), along with Mehrunes Dagon (Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion), Grandia II (although the one in this game is meant to be a god), and currently I'm only coming up with games. There's just a few examples anyway. Ah Sauron, that mighties of foes! Was Sauron the ultimate overlord? When I first saw the last Lord of the Rings movie - The Return of the King (I haven't made it through the books yet, but I mean to someday) I was very dissapointed in the ending. Not knowing the plot, I was somehow hoping that Sauron would come to life and there would be the mother of all battles to defeat him, like how they teased at the beginning of the first movie. When his tower crumbled and his big fiery eye poofed out I was extremely dissapointed. What a let down, right? However, thinking about this more, I realized that (entering opinion zone) Tolkien's Sauron was a plot device not a main character. Sauron was an apocyliptic threat, like a nuclear holocaust or a comet slamming into earth. Taking the Ring to Mount Doom was about avoiding the apocolypse of Middle Earth, not defeating Sauron. Thinking about the story like this, I think that the ending made much more sense, and was more satisfying.
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