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 Posted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:30 pm
To start, I've chosen to bring up this topic with the hope of getting some good discussion going, and to provide us all with a bit of food for thought.
Last month I visited my uncle for a two week vacation and during that time we had some in-depth discussions about composers and music in general. One of the things that came up was the ever so common subject of Beethoven. He made this statement (as it was over a month ago, please consider this to be me paraphrasing): "I believe Beethoven was the greatest music genius to ever live. I know that most people say it's Mozart, but I believe that it's Beethoven; Mozart composed with his mind and Beethoven composed from his soul." I've been thinking about this statement since that time, and it makes me sense to me.
Unfortunately, I'm nowhere near a gifted enough speaker to pull all the strands of thought that have come from this out of my head and into one coherent paragraph (or series of paragraphs), so I'll leave it at this: What do you think of this statement? Is he right or wrong? What matters more to you, pure skill at composition or that the music is composed comes from one's core of being and isn't written for practical reasons alone?
Discuss.
(P.S. I intend to keep this topic guild exclusive for now, at least here on Gaia.)
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:41 am
well, I read an article about Beethovens' teaching and learning methods and they were as uninspired as mozarts'. I believe mozart composed really childish and mediocre music so there's no comparison to beethoven in my opinion...
I prefer Bach and earlier Baroque has started to "growing on me", which is music that's supposed to be extreamly technical and unemotional so I'm not sure composing with soul is the greatest of ideas.
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Posted: Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:16 pm
That would naturally be the case with baroque, however, this is more of a question of eras which is a bit different.
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Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 12:23 pm
I agree, definitely. Beethoven was one of the first composers to really break the rules, whearas Mozart followed them, perfectly. Mozart's music is beautiful, but Beethoven's definitely has more soul. Mozart probably approached music more like math, and Beethoven as art. Maybe it's those left-brain right-brain things.
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:57 pm
Besides, Mozart's really uncomplex... really simple harmonic textures. People say it isn't about complexit, but lat's face it, complex music is usually better.
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:25 am
It depends...very simple songs can be wonderful if executed properly, while something overly complex can end up bogging itself down and becoming an exercise in showing off and nothing more.
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Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 12:38 am
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Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:48 am
There are plenty of composers that weaved both mathematical precision and sheer emotive beauty into their works. I feel that Beethoven did both, but not at the same time. He was certainly a revolutionary, if you are talking about the second quality, but [I feel, I feel but?] a lot of his music lacks shine and genius.
I'm definately more of a Beethoven fan then a Mozart fan- but I can't see how either could be considered 'the greatest music genius to ever live'.
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the isle of the dead Crew
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Posted: Sun Jul 31, 2005 2:58 pm
Who do you consider to be the greatest? I make this statement out of curiosity.
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Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:55 am
Well, I'd put Rachmaninoff at the top myself. The fact that he wasn't very prolific loses him points, but his music has this magical perfection about it. Every note in its place. At the same time, I doubt anyone could find me a Rachmaninoff piece that was not written with consuming passion and fervor.
The perfection is difficult to observe from a distance- but note, in all his melodies, the distance between successive intervals, and the dissonance created out of this. His melodies are perfect.
If not, Saint-Saens, Ravel, Bach or Bartok. I know a lot of Bach lacks an emotional overtone, but quite a lot of his organ and choral work is emotive.
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the isle of the dead Crew
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Posted: Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:33 pm
I believe Beethoven is known as a genius due to his symphonies personally, along with..well...a majority of his work. Also, mainly due to him being the major transition between the classical and romantic era. For obvious reasons, that particular era holds a special place in the heart of many people.
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 6:07 am
I don't think his music ended up being that romantic, myself. I suppose my opinion is slightly skewed, I've heard more romantic than anything.
Eitherway, though it makes him a great composer, I don't find it justified calling him the 'greatest musical genius to ever live'. Close, but no dice.
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the isle of the dead Crew
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Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 11:42 am
Well, to be fair, many people feel different about all of his work than you do. xp Not to mention, he's liked because of being the original well known "tortured composer". It brings sort of a legendary status to him, and makes people able to identify with him, and enjoy his music that much more.
That said...I'm not sure who I'd name as the greatest musical genius.
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 1:11 am
I'd like to know what so many others think. More importantly, I'd like others to actually think about it. There are a few subjects which deserve meditation and contemplation as this one does, and yet many don't- perhaps out of some fear of what they might find. I don't know why.
Not many people agree with me on many things. I'm almost certain that the majority don't agree with me on this subject. I'm sure most people with some classical knowledge consider one of either Beethoven or Mozart the greatest musical genius of our time. It is my own theory, however, that as one gains more insight into the 'classical' realm, the 'majority' might actually point to someone different. I doubt that someone is Rachmaninoff, mainly because of his lack of prolificity, but the idea would certainly not be as much a suprise as Beethoven being that someone would, though that idea is not completely dismissable either.
These are some of the things that I'd like to know, but probably never will.
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the isle of the dead Crew
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Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 10:41 am
Hm, interesting view. Unfortunately, I'm not going to bother thinking on this for a while, but not for fear of finding of an answer: To elaborate I won't pose this question due to a lack of knowledge of various composers and some of the pieces composers that I know wrote, it would require years more listening. I also don't feel it's right to start attempting to name the best yet, as I'm severely handicapped at music theory. I haven't had a chance to study it, so all I have is a pretty good idea of good song writing vs. bad song writing. I don't think it would be right to judge which composer is best when all I can do right now is listen and hear the beauty of the pieces (among other elements) without having the knowledge to truly understand them.
Honestly, I don't think this is the case, as even the most knowledgable professors of composition that have been listening for years still point to those two as the best.
Personally, I think this is more an in issue with you than them. However, there's nothing wrong you. I believe you simply have a mind that operates on a different level than most when it coms to musical interpretation and various other things. You also seem to be a fairly deep thinker, which is a good trait, although it can ultimately destroy a person over time in the right situation.
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