Welcome to Gaia! ::

I believe that they should be give death certificates. It's only fair that they aleast be treated the same as all the other people that have died.

I would say birth cetificates as well but techically they weren't born (they were never given the chance to be born).

I would like both. Of course alternatives, and ways to avoid pregnancy in the firs case are very important. But I would like to see it illegal as well, except in certain cases.

It's like... if murder were legalized for no reason... bear with me here... and people started killing others and looting. Now, when people got their minds back, do you think they would want murder illegalized, or just provide better paying jobs so that murder was less neccesary since people won't kill for money anymore?

I get 5 points for being the first Pro-Choice person to comments. *wink*

Giving Legal Personhood to unborn humans is a rather tricky thing to carry out. For one thing, when would Legal Personhood begin? At conception? At viability? At implantation?

What about miscarriages? Would they be considered involuntary manslaughter?

Oh - And the idea behind the "Right to Bodily Integrity" is that it is already illegal (that is, a violation of their rights) to use another's body without their permission. So that wouldn't really need to change, it would just need to be stated directly that the "Right to Bodily Integrity" also applies to pregnant women and unborn humans.

With new cases come new exceptions. Of course a miscarriage would not count as manslaughter, just the same as a child dying of pnumonea is not manslaughter unless there are clear signs of neglect causing or allowing the pnumonea in the first place. However, dismembering your child and then cleaning it with a vaccuum is certainly murder. Speaking of born children, currently, of course.

That's a little vague. I don't think you can change "Legal Personhood beings at birth" to "Legal Personhood begins whenever the pregnant woman reports it to begin".

What about women who don't know they are pregnant until 6 months? Or who don't know until they give birth (this happens very rarely, but I think it does happen)? What about women who think they are pregnant, but actually aren't?

Also, I am not sure I see the benefit to adding all this confusion and paperwork by declaring unborn humans to be Legal Persons if abortion is still legal. I mean, I was under the impression that most people wanted unborn humans to be declared Legal Persons in order to give them access to the "Right to Life" (I might be mistaken though)?

The reason I mention this is that miscarriage is involuntary abortion. That is, the only difference between a miscarriage and an abortion is that a doctor preforms an abortion (actually, sometimes a medical abortion is preformed after a miscarriage if the "products of conception" didn't get flushed out completely).

Isn't causing the death of another person unintentionally "involuntary manslaughter"? I mean, if unborn humans were considered Legal Persons, would it seem somewhat logical to consider miscarriage the unintentional death of another person?

In court cases, what has previously been ruled on other cases is very important.

But you are right, from the perspective of, say, Law Enforcement Officers, it doesn't really matter what has been decided on legal cases, unless that decision actually changed the law.

Thanks. I like your Avatar!

Yeah, you're right. How about at implantation?

Partially yes. Not even wanted unborn have any rights. While although they may not need any, it would be nice to treat them as equals, legally speaking.

Well, assuming that miscarriage is a form of abortion, seeing as how miscarriage is legal, it stands to reason that miscarriage is a legal form of abortion. If abortion is to be kept legal, why change that? Besides, if it does get into legal complications, what's to stop the woman from saying she was planning to have an abortion anyways?
Well it would be more similar to a freak accident. What is the law when dealing with freak accidents?
And I also think that unless something has been ruled to be illegal by congress, or court rulings, then it's not really illegal, call me crazy.
Thanks, yours is cool too.

Well, the issue with that is that Legal Personhood is granted through (rather a lot of) paperwork. So someone needs to know that the unborn human exists for it to get legal rights.

I suppose this could be accomplished through mandatory monthly pregnancy testing (though this would be both a hassle to enforce and a violation of privacy).

Not to mention the whole miscarriage issue, including the estimated 1/3 of unborn humans that miscarry before the woman is even aware she was pregnant.

I do, to some extent, agree. I think that unborn humans are equal to born humans (in a non-legal setting). I just feel that giving them the same legal rights would be a whole lot of extra work for the government agencies in charge of that sort of thing, with very little benefit (the benefit mainly being that the poor women who have lost a pregnancy could get a death certificate for their unborn human).

Well, if more than one person was involved, I believe there often is a police investigation into the person who didn't die. And, if you are talking about things like a kid running out right in front of a car, there can be charges (like involuntary vehicular manslaughter), though usually only a small fine, if any punishment.

If you mean like someone getting struck by lightening, or another so-called "Act of God", then there isn't any investigation needed. Perhaps miscarriage would be classified as this if unborn humans were declared to be Legal Persons? That would solve that bit of the problem.