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 Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:22 am
Yeah. Spoilers ahoy.
This thread is for the discussion of the book by folks who've finished the book. Expect spoilers on anything from any point within the book.
Possible things to discuss (but, of course, discuss whatever whee ):
Dumbledore - Dead, but not gone? Will he Obi Won things up and become "more powerful than you can possibly imagine"?!
Snape - Bad, good, just plain greasy?
Draco - What's to become of him now? Is he a totally lost cause?
Hagrid & Grawp - WTF? Are they ever going to do something with the giant plotline?
Romance - There's a shitload of it in this book. What do you think? Predictions?
R.A.B. - Eh? Eh?
WTF? - WTF?!
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:23 am
On the topic of Snape - To trust him or not to trust him? Quote: I do still trust Snape. My first reaction as I finished the book was to feel betrayed and to think that Snape really was one of the bad guys after all. However, within minutes of setting the book down, things started clicking into place, and I've come back to trusting him after all. I'm dreadfully lazy and I've got an awful headache, so for the moment I'll just cross-post what I put up on The Three Broomsticks. Quote: We have the scene on the lake: Dumbledore makes Harry promise to force him to drink the potion, no matter the consequences. Even if it kills him, Dumbledore binds Harry to this promise, all for the sake of the greater good. Sure, it is a character building moment, and adds a nice dramatic effect. The idea of teamwork foiling Voldie's plans is also convincing. But what if it was more than that? What if this was JKR's subtle way of showing us that these are the sort of promises Dumbledore can back his "followers" into. We all know how protective Dumbledore is of his students, how much he cares for them -- even the often-overlooked Slytherins like Malfoy. I don't think it would be a stretch for anyone to believe that Dumbledore would sacrifice his life to save a student -- his inclination to take on all the most dangerous tasks in the cave adventure illustrate that well. Dumbledore knows about Voldemort's orders, and the plan, he says as much. He knows that Malfoy would be in danger if he failed, unless he went over to Dumbledore's side. The chance to sway Malfoy to come under Dumbledore's protection is shot once the other DEs arrive on the scene. It's easy, on first reading, to assume that Dumbledore is pleading with Snape because he can't believe that Snape would really betray him. But what if he's pleading with Snape to follow up on a promise Snape made to him? The promise to go through with Voldemort's plan, to kill Dumbledore, in order to save Draco Malfoy (and Narcissa in the deal). ...Clearly, putting the Malfoys into hiding would have been Dumbledore's first plan, and he wasn't expecting to have extra DEs in Hogwarts to deal with.... But Snape could have been the back-up plan, the insurance that even if Malfoy doesn't back down, he won't have to suffer Voldemort's full wrath for failure. I'm going crazy trying to find the scene when Hagrid spills the fight between Snape and Dumbledore [edit: Elf Tails] but it sounds like Dumbledore made Snape promise something that Snape wants to back out of. What if it isn't Snape wanting to avoid spying or other Order duties, but simply not wanting to be stuck in the position of killing Dumbledore to save Draco? I don't know. Maybe it's crazy. But...I've got an oddly strong feeling about this, the more that I think about it. Of course...it'll be a few years of waiting before we really know... I should emphasize, I don't think it was Dumbledore's ideal plan... But perhaps a back-up plan. I do think that Dumbledore anticipated the possibility. He was established in the Cave chapter as considering Harry "worth" more than him. Granted, Harry is "The Chosen One" and all, but I don't think that means he's the only one Dumbledore would consider worth more than an "old man" like himself. In sacrificing himself, he would save Snape, Draco, and Narcissa. I also find it interesting that, when Harry keeps attacking Snape, Snape doesn't retaliate nearly as much as he could. Granted, he's supposed to be saved for Voldemort, but it really seems like he's holding back. He even tells Harry what to do - keep his mouth and mind closed. I think he was offering a crucial hint to Harry in how to defeat Voldemort.
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:44 am
That stupid book.. gonk
I don't want to retype stuff, so maybe I should just copy and paste what I said in IM.
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:46 am
Malaryush Romance - There's a shitload of it in this book. What do you think? Predictions? Ron and Lavender got too close for my liking, I was happy when they were no longer and item. Too much 'snogging'. That's such a dirty word, and it was used so often.
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:37 pm
R.A.B- My take? Regulus Black.
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 6:31 pm
Lecu Malaryush Romance - There's a shitload of it in this book. What do you think? Predictions? Ron and Lavender got too close for my liking, I was happy when they were no longer and item. Too much 'snogging'. That's such a dirty word, and it was used so often.
I think Ron and Lavender got together wa~y too quickly and way too physical so quickly.
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Harbinger of Pandamonium Crew
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:02 pm
Peppermint Elf R.A.B- My take? Regulus Black. That's what I've been hearing too.
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:33 pm
Phoenix315 -snogs-
I think Ron and Lavender got together wa~y too quickly and way too physical so quickly. Too quickly to be in good taste? Definitely. Too quickly to be realistic? Sadly, no. But...I guess he finally got a chance to look at "Uranus"... *ahem*
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:36 pm
Malaryush Phoenix315 -snogs-
I think Ron and Lavender got together wa~y too quickly and way too physical so quickly. Too quickly to be in good taste? Definitely. Too quickly to be realistic? Sadly, no. But...I guess he finally got a chance to look at "Uranus"... *ahem* And exactly what was up with the obsessed Harry fangirl? Good grief! She was like a bad Mary Sue! eek gonk
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:44 pm
Malaryush Phoenix315 -snogs-
I think Ron and Lavender got together wa~y too quickly and way too physical so quickly. Too quickly to be in good taste? Definitely. Too quickly to be realistic? Sadly, no. But...I guess he finally got a chance to look at "Uranus"... *ahem*
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Harbinger of Pandamonium Crew
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:59 pm
Phoenix315 Yes, I realize that it is possible to be sucking face and her be completely obsessive within a day, however unlikely. Well, Lavender had been admiring Ron for a while that year. (Probably brought about by the publicity on the Ministry incident, which made him "interesting".) So, for her, his sudden attention was probably all she needed to put the seal on an already growing infatuation. Not surprising that she got clingy pretty fast; she'd want to put her hooks into her new semi-famous boyfriend. I also suppose that over all the snog-sessions she may have eventually developed some genuine affection for Ron beyond the fame factor and the teenage hormones. As for Ron... I don't get the feeling that he was ever really "obsessive" in the sense that he actually cared for Lavender to any great degree. He was incensed by the row with Ginny, and so he threw himself into a purely physical relationship with Lavender to show his sister that he could get a little action. As for the choice of Lavender -- firstly, she would have him. Secondly, she was uncomplicated; they weren't friends, so he had nothing to lose, and initially she didn't seem to have many expectations of him beyond fooling around. Being a teenaged boy, I expect the physical benefits derived from such a simple relationship were enough to keep him in. I don't think he ever really stopped to think of Lavender as anything more than a pair of lips (and, perhaps, a pair of hips).
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:01 pm
Peppermint Elf And exactly what was up with the obsessed Harry fangirl? Good grief! She was like a bad Mary Sue! eek gonk For a moment, I couldn't remember who you meant. Then it hit me. Somehow, I wouldn't be surprised if she really was a nod to all the terrifying Mary Sues out there. JKR has been known to pay attention to the fans and fan-fiction.
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Harbinger of Pandamonium Crew
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:04 pm
Malaryush Phoenix315 Yes, I realize that it is possible to be sucking face and her be completely obsessive within a day, however unlikely. Well, Lavender had been admiring Ron for a while that year. (Probably brought about by the publicity on the Ministry incident, which made him "interesting".) So, for her, his sudden attention was probably all she needed to put the seal on an already growing infatuation. Not surprising that she got clingy pretty fast; she'd want to put her hooks into her new semi-famous boyfriend. I also suppose that over all the snog-sessions she may have eventually developed some genuine affection for Ron beyond the fame factor and the teenage hormones. As for Ron... I don't get the feeling that he was ever really "obsessive" in the sense that he actually cared for Lavender to any great degree. He was incensed by the row with Ginny, and so he threw himself into a purely physical relationship with Lavender to show his sister that he could get a little action. As for the choice of Lavender -- firstly, she would have him. Secondly, she was uncomplicated; they weren't friends, so he had nothing to lose, and initially she didn't seem to have many expectations of him beyond fooling around. Being a teenaged boy, I expect the physical benefits derived from such a simple relationship were enough to keep him in. I don't think he ever really stopped to think of Lavender as anything more than a pair of lips (and, perhaps, a pair of hips).
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:27 pm
Phoenix315 -shrugs- It's possible, I just find it very bad fanfictionish. I don't find it at all unrealistic, from my experiences with teenagers. But I also find it rather ill-suited to the Potterverse as it's always been shown previously. Most of the romance in the book reminded me of bad fanfiction, really. sweatdrop
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Harbinger of Pandamonium Crew
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Posted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:29 pm
Malaryush Phoenix315 -shrugs- It's possible, I just find it very bad fanfictionish. I don't find it at all unrealistic, from my experiences with teenagers. But I also find it rather ill-suited to the Potterverse as it's always been shown previously. Most of the romance in the book reminded me of bad fanfiction, really. sweatdrop
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