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 Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 2:09 pm
I think I have proof that somewhere,either Snape or Dumbledore or Trelawny lied to someone,and it makes no sense. Here is my theory:
Let us take a look back to the night that the (in)famous prophecy was made. Here is the story Harry (and we) know: Dumbledore was in the room with Trelawny,and Snape was lurking outside. Snape managed to hear half of the prophecy before he was caught and thrown out....Logically,this makes no sense.
Trelawny is the one who tells Harry that it was Severus Snape (who was apparently looking for enployment tips) who had burst into the room,fumbling about getting lost. This is a lie: Because Dumbledore said that Snape had come in halfway through the prophecy. Trelawny,then,would not have been able to notice Snape! She would have been in a trance!
So,what happened?
If Trelawny is telling the truth....
A. Snape heard none of it. Somehow,Voldemort got part of the Prophecy and Dumbledore lied to Harry.
B. Snape heard it all and only told Voldemort part of it. He was a Death Eater at this point,why would he do that?
Is Trelawny is lying (And she doesn't seem to be a terribly good secret-keeper)....
A. Someone put her up to lying. Dumbledore? Snape? Who....And why?
B. She is lying for her own reasons...Why would she need to decieve Harry?
Personally,I go with option B,that Snape only told Voldemort part of it. I think that,at this point,he was secretly Dumbledores spy...Which led me to believe,was he ever a Death Eater?
One might ask,why did Snape tell Voldemort ANY of it? Possibly to distract Voldemort. Dumbledore (And Snape) would have known that both possible targets where safely hidden under the Fidelius Charm...And they would have continued to have been if Pettigrew hadn't betrayed the Potters.
(Note that I know an editorial close to this has been posted elsewhere. I had actually thought of this before I read that,but I am not trying to take credit...)
Feel free to discuss!
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 3:34 pm
She did say that there was a comotion outside the door...it's possible that the barman came up, found Snape leaning over the keyhole and caused some trouble in the hallway, which would have drowned out some of what Dumbledore (who, not having a wall between himself and the Seer, could hear her much more clearly) heard. By the time the door opened and they saw Snape, Trelawny would have come out of her trance, allowing her to remember only that Snape had been eavesdropping.
Or it could just be that JK made a mistake...I personally like my way better but that's always a possibility.
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Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 4:29 pm
It isn't like JKR to make mistakes like that.
I think that my suggestions are much more interesting. ^_^ But,yours is plausible...
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:50 am
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 3:18 pm
I'd noticed.
And I know that JKR is usually really good about those things...partly because she's so intellegent and partly because she has such good editers...I'm just saying it's always a possibillity (however unlikely).
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 3:42 pm
Yeah...Too bad. Send me an Instant Message at ChaosSonicZeta on AIM if anyone wants to talk Harry Potter.
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 3:57 pm
...I think it said something about how Trelawney heard later that Snape had been eavesdropping.
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Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:07 pm
Here's what I'm thinking: Snape heard it all. A true Slytherin, he realizes that according to the prophecy, someone has a good shot at killing his master, and so he had better cover his bottom. The solution? He takes the first half of the prophecy to Voldemort, being sure to cut it off at a good spot, leaving out important information on purpose. At the same time, he's gone crying to Dumbledore and pretends to see the wrong of his ways, offering to be a Spy for the light side and saying that he heard half of the prophecy. Perhaps Snape does claim that he was caught halfway and couldn’t hear the rest in the commotion.
Dumbledore, being who he is, can’t turn away Snape after a plea like that and offers him a second chance. Thus, is Snape safe no matter what happens. If Voldemort is obliterated by the kid, however unlikely, Snape has safety under Dumbledore’s wing. If Voldemort takes out the kid, Snape is the good guy in Voldy’s books because it was Snape who warned him of the prophecy, and not only that, but Snape also managed to get near Dumbledore and can spy and, in time, even assassinate/sabotage the resistance against Voldemort.
As events truly happened, Voldemort is temporarily vaporized. Snape is pretty much off the hook as far as spying goes, but decides that it’s better to stay close to one side or the other in case Voldy really didn’t die. (I wonder if Snape also knew about the horcruxes, or at least one. Perhaps he is the caretaker of one of them) Sticking around known/suspected Death Eaters is pretty much a one-way pass to Azkaban, as he has no gold to buy off the Ministry like the Malfoys. He can’t have that, so he stays with Dumbledore, gathering a wealth of information as he teaches Potions at Hogwarts. When Voldemort returns, Snape can continue to ride the fence, possibly giving information to both sides, both minor and major, but keeping the really big stuff to himself for the time being. Aces up his sleeves.
He only half-teaches Occlumency to Harry, perhaps skipping preliminary steps and just battering Harry’s mind continuously. Perhaps Snape figured that if Harry were powerful, clever, and/or resourceful enough, he could learn Occlumency that way, the hard way, and if he does, it was worth it because it would signify that Harry was possibly powerful enough to beat Voldemort and Snape could claim to be on Harry’s side, as it was he who taught the victor Occlumency, even if in a roundabout way. If not, no loss. Voldemort would win. Snape isn’t in trouble for teaching the kid, because the kid learned nothing. All is happy in Greasy-snake world.
The Unbreakable Vow is when Snape himself ends up backed into a corner even his careful maneuvering cannot get him out of. All he can really do is offer superficial help to Draco (which he probably expects to be refused) and hope that he will not be forced to lose his delicately balanced position in the middle. The plank tips, however, when Draco proves unable to complete his task and Snape is forced to kill Dumbledore, or die himself. As he flees, followed by Harry, he shouts back more superficial advice hidden as taunts, possibly in the hopes that if Harry does recognize his advice and become powerful enough to follow it and kill Voldemort, Snape could return to the winning side with the Dumbledore-told-me-to-do-it and I-was-forced-to theory and all of his evidence that he was truly trying to teach Harry all along without jeopardizing his position as spy in the Death Eater ranks. Notice also that he does not try to capture Harry and bring him to Voldemort…something could always go wrong, and if Harry won the fight by some miracle, Snape’s life would also be forfeit, whether he was killed or just thrown to the Dementors.
Clever. Devious. With his Occlumency skills, he’s practically in perfect safety, no matter who wins. Severus Snape is a true Slytherin in this, unlike Bellatrix Lestrange, who, truth be told, is better suited for Hufflepuff in her blind, absolute loyalty. Even the Malfoys cannot compare to Snape in their techniques, as they only pleaded Imperious and paid off the ministry.
Thus neither Dumbledore nor Trelawney lie, at least from their point of view. Dumbledore honestly believes that Severus only heard the first half of the prophecy, and Trelawney only tells what she knows: she’s sitting down at an interview, gets a little dozy, and is suddenly wide awake again as Snape is found outside.
Under this theory, Snape is the liar, and a clever one at that.
Does anyone need me to clarify this?
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Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 10:56 pm
That's a very good theory.
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 2:32 pm
That is an amazing theory. I think its plausible too, like trelawny, having been in a trance would have known almost nothing about the goings on while she was phrophesizing...(dont bug me, i like to make up words)
And staying on either side of the 'law' lets say (or good and evil) snape is in a perfect position. but in a way, i think he kinda screwed himself over in the last book by killing dumbledore.cuz umm, who would have guess THAT would happen? I know some of my friends think its a conspiracy and they think that dumble's death was planned, but if Harry relied on dumble so much, then why would he volunteer to leave harry in the lurch?
Theres always the matter of the horcruxes? does snape know about them? and if so, will he tell harry?(that is if he's actually a good guy which i highly doubt.)
Personally, i think snape has been doing too much flip flopping over the course of 6 books to turn out to be good in the end.
just my thoughts! xd
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Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 10:27 pm
I don't think Snape knows about the Horcruxes. If he is evil and he knows,he would have told Voldemort about Dumbledore taking the ring...And Voldemort would have probably checked his cave.
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Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 4:30 pm
OmegaSlyth I don't think Snape knows about the Horcruxes. If he is evil and he knows,he would have told Voldemort about Dumbledore taking the ring...And Voldemort would have probably checked his cave.
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Posted: Thu May 17, 2007 4:55 pm
What if Snape did know about the Horcruxes, all of them? I doubt it; Voldemort should be smart enough not to give away his full list to anyone and I don't think he'd leave information like that lying around. If Snape knows about any horcrux, he will only know about one, and he'll be keeping pretty mum about it toward either side...If he ever figured out that Dumbledore was horcrux-hunting, Snape wouldn't say a word about what he may have been protecting unless he thought that Harry was good enough to destroy Voldemort, at which point he'd hand over the object with a sob-story about how he just managed to get it away, and he had to make sure he wasn't caught. Snape would probably manage to get Dumbledore and the Order to stage some sort of attack on the place it was hidden, in which Snape was somehow subdued. I think the man would prefer torture to death.
Voldemort may not know that two of his soul peices have been vaporized. I'm thinking that he has so many, and was anchored to them for so long, that they very quickly became a sort of "background noise". He won't notice them being gone because he's learned to tune them out, to ignore them. He's used to them...Like when you wear a paper crown or a hat, and it's removed. You're used to it being there, so you still feel its weight in an odd sort of way, even though it's gone. Voldemort has been wearing six 'hats' for about thirteen years, if you think of it. It'll take a bit of time for him to figure out that they're being plucked off one by one.
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Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 8:04 am
I'm liking these replies,keep 'em coming!
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Posted: Sat May 19, 2007 7:59 pm
I don't think that snape knows about the horcruxes, Voldemort is not going to trust any with the secret bits of himself and his mind would not be open enough for someone to pull the information from him. I also don't think Dumbledor told any but Harry what they really were and their importance in the battle. Now I do agree with the theory that Snape was playing both sides, he is the type to cover all the bases for as long as possible.
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