Judaism and the Christian Bible | Page 1 | Jewish Gaians Guild | Guild Forums

A Murder of Angels

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Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 1:31 am

I admitedly don't know much at all about Judaism. Most of what I understand about it comes from reading the Old Testament of the Bible. But I've recently begun comparing the Old Testament scriptures to the actual Torah and I've noticed some major differences.

So my question is, how accuratley does the Christian Old Testament portray actual Judaism?

Also, I know the most important Jewish scriptures is the five books of the Torah (corresponding to the first 5 books of the Old Testament), but what is the Jewish view on other books of the Christian Old Testament?

I know the New Testament deviates wildly from Judaism, but how do Jews view those books as well?

Thanks in advance for answering my questions. wink

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 4:41 am

I never heard that there were differences between the "Christian Old Testament" and the Torah: they're supposed to be the same thing. Are you talking about the King James Version or what? What differences do you mean? The King James Version was translated from the Hebrew, I don't know about other translations.

~Spirit of Dragons~

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A Murder of Angels

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Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 10:22 am

~Spirit of Dragons~

I never heard that there were differences between the "Christian Old Testament" and the Torah: they're supposed to be the same thing. Are you talking about the King James Version or what? What differences do you mean? The King James Version was translated from the Hebrew, I don't know about other translations.

I'll cite the post which actually sparked this train of thought for me. It was in another guild while having a discussion on the Christian vs the Jewish view of Satan. (And yes, I know the Book of Job isn't in the Torah... which leads to another of my questions... Do Jews aknowledge the Book of Job and other books of the Old Testament?)

writer monk

Book of Job

1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

and

Quote:

2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. 2:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Ok, let's start with these. first thing to note is how Satan is adressed - he's listed as one of the "sons of G-d." In the Hebrew, the word translated as Satan in these passages is more accurately "the satan" ('ha-satan;' not capitalized as a name would be)or 'the adversary.' But, clearly, he is not G-d's adversary, because he's a welcome part of His court. Too, Satan apparently spends his time wandering the earth, and though we don't know why, during the rest of the Book of Job, he plauges Job with all manner of afflictions under G-d's command. (Incidently, all of the tribulations visited upon Job are prefigured/mentioned in Dueteronomy (chapter 2 cool and some portions closely parallel descriptions of afflictions/trials in Isaiah (ch 52 - 53) - but given that many people see Job as an allegory, that isn't too unusual.)

Satan only appears briefly in the first section (Job is generally acknoledged to consist of 3 seperate parts of unequal length), but it is clearly as G-d's agent on Earth and not as a foe or competitor.

Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 10:30 am

From my understanding the Old Testament IS the books of the Torah with meanings and things changed around to fit Christian ideas. Such as the snake in the Garden of Eden being the Devil or whatever.

Macaroni Jesus

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kingpinsqeezels

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Posted: Tue May 01, 2007 2:21 pm

It's a common misconception that they are they same thing, but they aren't. I don't think they are majorly different, but I haven't read either in full so I wouldn't know.

I do know that the KJV is probably the worst bible to read, and any self respecting Christian should stay away from it. 3nodding

Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 3:48 pm

Judaism doesn't even recognize the Old Testament, as it has been edited and changed. If anyone has studied Talmud before, it's amazing how deep the Torah is, every letter counts, every word means something - even an extra line on the tiniest letter (the Yud) means something. Now think what would happen if you were to translate it - not to mention intentionally mistranslating!

About the devil... The devil, in hebrew (ha-satan), is derived from the root word haset - "to lead astray". The satan is actually one of g-d's angels who tests the man, trying to lead him astray, testing him to see if he is really loyal to G-d. The satan is NOT a fallen angel, and he is NOT g-d's rival. I don't even know how on earth they came up with this... The Devil is not an evil creature - Everyone inside us has a little Satan - that tiny voice that tries to lead us astray. In Hebrew, often referred to - "Yetzer harah", or "The evil inclination". Without the Satan, we wouldn't be able to prove that we truly love G-d! It is only thanks to the Satan that we realize our weak points, and can come closer to Hashem.

We can see this in the book of Iyov (or Job), which speaks of a discussion between G-d and the Satan. The Satan claimed that Iyov was only loyal to G-d because he had all that he needed. The Satan requested to test Iyov, and to see if Iyov only worshiped G-d because he had all that he needed. Throughout the book, it is told of how Iyov was tested - And yet he passes the test. That is what the Satan was meant for. Not capturing souls or destroying the world like many would like to believe... But to test man, to see if he really loves G-d.

It's probably for this reason there are opinions that the snake was actually the devil, trying to test Adam and Eve...

nathan_ngl
Crew

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Dis Domnu

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Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 4:54 pm

nathan_ngl

It's probably for this reason there are opinions that the snake was actually the devil, trying to test Adam and Eve...

The way I heard that one reasoned was that G-d, in His infinite wisdom, realized that there could be no good without freewill and the knowledge of good and evil; and so did what He had to (sent the serpent) to get Adam and Eve to take the fruit.

Of course, with Christians, it's been twisted around to be Eve failing G-d, and has been used as a reason to discriminate against women. I don't know if the thing was edited to be like that to give the excuse to discriminate against women, or for some other reason that I have no clue about (I don't know much about Christianity, damned thing's nearly a complete unknown for me).

Posted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:25 pm

Dis Domnu

Of course, with Christians, it's been twisted around to be Eve failing G-d, and has been used as a reason to discriminate against women. I don't know if the thing was edited to be like that to give the excuse to discriminate against women,

You're right, some people do look at it that way - and it's entirely wrong. Adam was to blame just as much as Eve was.

nathan_ngl
Crew

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A Murder of Angels

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Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 11:04 am

nathan_ngl

Judaism doesn't even recognize the Old Testament, as it has been edited and changed. If anyone has studied Talmud before, it's amazing how deep the Torah is, every letter counts, every word means something - even an extra line on the tiniest letter (the Yud) means something. Now think what would happen if you were to translate it - not to mention intentionally mistranslating!

I've read about exegesis and things like that. I find that whole concept very fascinating.

Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 4:44 pm

nathan_ngl

About the devil... The devil, in hebrew (ha-satan), is derived from the root word haset - "to lead astray". The satan is actually one of g-d's angels who tests the man, trying to lead him astray, testing him to see if he is really loyal to G-d. The satan is NOT a fallen angel, and he is NOT g-d's rival. I don't even know how on earth they came up with this... The Devil is not an evil creature - Everyone inside us has a little Satan - that tiny voice that tries to lead us astray. In Hebrew, often referred to - "Yetzer harah", or "The evil inclination". Without the Satan, we wouldn't be able to prove that we truly love G-d! It is only thanks to the Satan that we realize our weak points, and can come closer to Hashem.

Early Christians, I think, were only interested in making money through religion. Just look at the KNOWN crookedness of the Catholic religion. They made Satan into God's rival and the taker of bad souls to sell their freaking religion, and to scare people into believing. One of the many things I despise about Christianity is their hell, and their devil, and things of that ilk. It truly is the biggest crock I've ever heard in my life, and they choose to believe it...

kingpinsqeezels

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darkphoenix1247
Vice Captain

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Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 4:59 pm

You forget indulgences, because paying money obviously makes up for your sins. rolleyes

Posted: Thu May 03, 2007 6:57 pm

darkphoenix1247

You forget indulgences, because paying money obviously makes up for your sins. rolleyes

Don't even get me started on purgatory and things of that nature! I could go on for days on the inner workings of the corruptness of the Catholic Church. It's none of THEIR faults, but their religion is based around I want to do whatever I want, but still get into heaven.

kingpinsqeezels

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A Murder of Angels

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Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 10:19 am

*sigh* I made this thread because I wanted to learn about Jews... not bash Christians. sweatdrop

Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 2:55 pm

A Murder of Angels

I admitedly don't know much at all about Judaism. Most of what I understand about it comes from reading the Old Testament of the Bible. But I've recently begun comparing the Old Testament scriptures to the actual Torah and I've noticed some major differences.

So my question is, how accuratley does the Christian Old Testament portray actual Judaism?

Also, I know the most important Jewish scriptures is the five books of the Torah (corresponding to the first 5 books of the Old Testament), but what is the Jewish view on other books of the Christian Old Testament?

I know the New Testament deviates wildly from Judaism, but how do Jews view those books as well?

The Christian translations of the Hebrew Bible into various languages (their 'Old' Testament) are replete with errors and (probably/possibly unintentional) mistranslations of key words and phrases. While the differences are subtle, they are profound.