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 Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:05 pm
So let's talk about karma since it seems to be a word that is often thrown around in the spiritual community. It seems to me that we really don't understand the word. So in order to gain an understanding of the word lets look at the meaning as it's applied to Dharmic religions...where the word originally started from. wikipedia Dharma Dhamma (Pali) is the underlying order in nature and human life and behaviour considered to be in accord with that order. Ethically, it means 'right way of living' or 'proper conduct,' especially in a religious sense. With respect to spirituality, dharma might be considered the Way of the Higher Truths. Dharma is a central concept in religions and philosophies originating in India. These religions and philosophies are called Dharmic religions. The principal ones are Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism, all of which emphasize Dharma (the correct understanding of Nature) in their teachings. In these traditions, beings that live in accordance with Dharma proceed more quickly toward Dharma Yukam, Moksha or Nirvana (personal liberation). Dharma also refers to the teachings and doctrines of the founders of these traditions, such as those of Gautama Buddha and Mahavira. In traditional Hindu society with its caste structure, Dharma constituted the religious and moral doctrine of the rights and duties of each individual. wiki Dharma Karma and Dharma are intrinsically linked in the Sikh faith. Karma is the baggage of ones thoughts, deeds and action in ones present and past lives. When ones mind is not fixed on the Almighty, one is governed by the Five Evils – Lust, Rage (anger), Ego, Attachment and Greed. The Sikh text tell the faithful that these "Five Evils" have the effect of restricting the person's spiritual development and the person falls into the trap of Maya (worldly affairs) which then begins to control the person's daily life and routine. Yogi Harbhanjan Singh Khalsa said the following regarding the influence of the "five evils" - "The folly of man is that all he seeks is self-praise for all that he has no right over – he grooms himself and compliments himself over how he looks like when he sees his reflection in the mirror; expects his wife and children to regard him as good;…" Karma and Dharma are directly linked. In Western culture we generally just use karma as the result of whatever we put out...it's the consequences of our actions. But it's plain to see that we need a Dharma in order to receive karma. So unless we're talking about karma in direct relation with out dharma (or life's path) then it's really not karma. It's just the cosmic consequences of our actions. I see too many people using karma to explain why bad things happen. Karma in itself is not bad or good, it simply is, it's the intention we put out that determines how it will return to us. Another note I'd like to make is that it is the consequence to how it lines up with our dharma. So doing a spell to hurt someone may very well be within our dharma and we may be rewarded for it but it could also be outside our dharma and tear us away from it. So in other words we still need to be careful before doing any sort of spell work. Now I understand you all are very enlightened people but I feel we should just have this on record. Karma acts in line with our dharma. Karma is not inherently good or bad, it just is...it's how it lines up with our dharma that determines what form it will take. Discussion: ~Another word for karma using the Western term? ~Knowing you life path
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Posted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:26 pm
Karma is acutally from india... aside from that western cultures uses, especially in wiccan the
"3x fold rules"
and the sayings of
"what goes around comes around."
Is acutally the same or similar to karma/dharma
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:27 am
If Karma is supposedly an energy force, it couldn't work as it is supposed too.
You see, if somebody did something to create bad karma, it would send an energy outwards and it would eventually return, right? Ok....so...energy disperses as it travels...it doesn't get stronger XD....therefore the thought of doing something wrong then getting it back 3x or 100x doesn't seem possible in a sense of Karma being energy.
However if Karma is something regulated by an Angel or Deity then it's highly possible, a record of our wrongdoings could easily be kept and we could be punished at sometime in the future for them.
Otherwise it just doesn't seem logical, of course then again....neither does applying laws of physics to the astral plane(where I would assume said karmic energies would be traveling through).
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:27 am
First off I just want to give FeiwynMouse kudos on this thread. I haven't seen a good karma thread where people understood the roots of karma so well in a long time. Thank you for putting it out there as it is completely needed. As a note to yayakiko, I don't think, and I could be wrong, that the Wiccan Rede is refering to karma. It is refering to some sort of energy retrobution source, but not necissarily karma. Especially since in the orginal context a person who steals or kills may be following their dharma so they may still incarnate as a higher being in the next life, where I'm pretty sure the threefold law is meant to discourage acts of killing or stealing. I would agree that in Western society we explain "what goes around comes around" as "karma", however strongly I may disagree with that. I also agree that if I was talking to most of my friends about karma they would understand the term to encompass that phrase. I'm still not a fan of using karma in that context though. I disagree that "what goes around comes around" is similar to the initial meaning of karma. First off, karma doesn't come into effect until after a person has died in the traditional sense and the implications of what goes around comes around is that the effect is more immediate. Secondly, this phrase implies the do unto others as you would have them do to you, because your actions will come back to you, where karma in an Eastern sense, isn't about that. Karma is all in relation to one's dharma and one's dharma isn't necissarily about being good to one's fellow man. [BlkCat] If Karma is supposedly an energy force, it couldn't work as it is supposed too. Good, Karma isn't an energy force. I think of it more as a running tally where we look at the outcome after this life time, but I don't think there is anything in the definition that indicates it is an energy force. Quote: You see, if somebody did something to create bad karma, it would send an energy outwards and it would eventually return, right? Ok....so...energy disperses as it travels...it doesn't get stronger XD....therefore the thought of doing something wrong then getting it back 3x or 100x doesn't seem possible in a sense of Karma being energy. You would be right, if you weren't mistaken on several points. One is that there is no good or bad karma. Karma is just that, karma. Secondly karma doesn't take effect on a person in this life time, it effects them after they are dead and decides what they will be incarnated into. What you are thinking of isn't karma and it doesn't really even echo the idea of karma. It is a Western misunderstanding of an Eastern religion and it may be a proper theory or belief in its own right, but it isn't karma. Quote: However if Karma is something regulated by an Angel or Deity then it's highly possible, a record of our wrongdoings could easily be kept and we could be punished at sometime in the future for them. Karma is regulated by a person's dharma. If you follow your life purpose you will incarnate into a higher being, if you don't then you will incarnate into a lower being.
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 12:48 pm
Wow...thank you blindfaith! Saves me the trouble of over thinking in the morning. XD
The Wiccan Rede and the Law of Return have nothing to do with karma and I think it's important as energy manipulators for us to understand that. It's more of an immediate energy return in my opinion designed to scare us into being good and doing good deeds. Sometimes bad things just happen and it has nothing to do with either the Rede of the Law, it simply is and attributing some cosmic energy to it is almost absurd.
Maybe that's just me, and I come from a totally different background than you, but I think giving a bad or good thing more credit than what it deserves kind of makes us look silly. Bad things happen because of our choices and some of them have very immediate consequences but not all are energy related. I think that's where we get lost.
Can the Law of Return really be applied to magic and energy in general? Unless something is driving it energy is neutral and goes nowhere, right? So the only way energy would or could return to you even stronger is if A) someone sent it back stronger or B) there was some divine being to punish us here and now.
When you look at the Rede it's more of a guideline and doesn't really have much to do with energy though we've always ascribed it that. As a general rule it's good to follow; don't hurt others and be kind, nothing wrong with that except for the obvious thing that all our actions have a consequence and someone somewhere has or will take offense to them. It's not about 'do X so Y doesn't happen' it's more just stating be good to one another and try not to hurt others. In this world it's inevitable that you'll hurt some one even if you had good intentions so maybe it should be amended to say something like 'and if you do, own up to your responsibilities.'
So is there something else we can use instead of karma when discussing the Western ideal of 'what you do comes back to you?'
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:24 pm
FeowynMouse Can the Law of Return really be applied to magic and energy in general? Unless something is driving it energy is neutral and goes nowhere, right? So the only way energy would or could return to you even stronger is if A) someone sent it back stronger or B) there was some divine being to punish us here and now. Here's how I look at it. On some level everything I do effects others and everything they do effects me. If I effect others in a positive manner, it is more likely, as a very general rule that they will effect me in a positive manner too. Of course this isn't quite the same as the law of return, but I figure its similar enough. If I view the mundane in this light, then it is likely that I view magic in this light too. If I'm sending out something negative to someone, it is more likely I will get negative in return. If I'm sending something postive out, it is more likely I will get something positive in return. As for good or evil energy, I think that's a whole bunch of BS in general. Energy is a tool its got good stuff and bad stuff to give, but its all relative to perspective and how one uses it. That being said, I have felt energy lingering that was what I would consider "gunky". Energy is effected by its environment like anything else, so while perhaps in theory its neutral, I'd say the actuality of it probably leaves energy that is positively charged or negatively charged all the time. As far as energy stagnating, I think of energy in a lot of the same way as I do air. It moves around a lot. Yes some of the forces are man made, but I sort of figure there is a convection current equivilant for energy too. Meh, that's all speculation though and a little off topic. Quote: So is there something else we can use instead of karma when discussing the Western ideal of 'what you do comes back to you?' Law of Return is a fine title. I supose if we want to fancy it up we could call it something like: "Proof of Humans' InterConnected State" or "the Good of One is Good for All" or possible "The Ripple Effect". I don't think we need another title or explination beyond the ones we have.
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:20 pm
blindfaith^_^ Here's how I look at it. On some level everything I do effects others and everything they do effects me. If I effect others in a positive manner, it is more likely, as a very general rule that they will effect me in a positive manner too. Of course this isn't quite the same as the law of return, but I figure its similar enough. If I view the mundane in this light, then it is likely that I view magic in this light too. If I'm sending out something negative to someone, it is more likely I will get negative in return. If I'm sending something positive out, it is more likely I will get something positive in return. Well that almost goes without saying. Generally you do good, you get good. That doesn't always apply though because bad things do happen to generally good people. In my opinion, things happen and sometime it's for a reason, some times it's not. I try to do good anyways because I want other people to think of me as a good person, no other reason. In my opinion expecting other people to treat me that way is a bit naive but part of me likes to hope that others treat me nicely because I'm nice to them. XD Quote: As for good or evil energy, I think that's a whole bunch of BS in general. Energy is a tool its got good stuff and bad stuff to give, but its all relative to perspective and how one uses it. That being said, I have felt energy lingering that was what I would consider "gunky". Energy is effected by its environment like anything else, so while perhaps in theory its neutral, I'd say the actuality of it probably leaves energy that is positively charged or negatively charged all the time. I still say it's neutral until acted upon by an outside force. A gunky sort of energy has probably been effected by something else and it has been so effected that it's left a lingering charge. I think over time that charge will go away unless added to later. For instance you place a heavy emotion in your house somewhere, say your bedroom, and then leave that space. Later on you come back to it and being in that area makes you feel the way you were earlier because the energy around that area is still effected by what you put in there. If you add more to it the charge will remain for x amount of time. If you don't add to it, it will slowly dissipate. I believe energy retains emotion for a time but it has no base as to being positive or negative. Quote: As far as energy stagnating, I think of energy in a lot of the same way as I do air. It moves around a lot. Yes some of the forces are man made, but I sort of figure there is a convection current equivalently for energy too. Meh, that's all speculation though and a little off topic. When I say that energy doesn't move, I mean it doesn't consciously go somewhere. It's like with air as well; in order for air to to make enough impact it needs an outside force to act upon it and move it rapidly. Of course that doesn't account for wind...which as to how that started up I have no idea. XD Quote: Law of Return is a fine title. I suppose if we want to fancy it up we could call it something like: "Proof of Humans' interconnected State" or "the Good of One is Good for All" or possible "The Ripple Effect". I don't think we need another title or explanation beyond the ones we have. I like the Ripple Effect, personally. I think, as an enlightened magical community, we should be using this instead of karma, even when we talk to people who aren't part of the community. Then again, I'm all for the spreading of right information. I agree though that we don't really need another term for it, but something short and catchy is what people like ya know. XD
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Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:26 pm
blindfaith^_^ First off I just want to give FeiwynMouse kudos on this thread. I haven't seen a good karma thread where people understood the roots of karma so well in a long time. Thank you for putting it out there as it is completely needed. As a note to yayakiko, I don't think, and I could be wrong, that the Wiccan Rede is refering to karma. It is refering to some sort of energy retrobution source, but not necissarily karma. Especially since in the orginal context a person who steals or kills may be following their dharma so they may still incarnate as a higher being in the next life, where I'm pretty sure the threefold law is meant to discourage acts of killing or stealing. I would agree that in Western society we explain "what goes around comes around" as "karma", however strongly I may disagree with that. I also agree that if I was talking to most of my friends about karma they would understand the term to encompass that phrase. I'm still not a fan of using karma in that context though. I disagree that "what goes around comes around" is similar to the initial meaning of karma. First off, karma doesn't come into effect until after a person has died in the traditional sense and the implications of what goes around comes around is that the effect is more immediate. Secondly, this phrase implies the do unto others as you would have them do to you, because your actions will come back to you, where karma in an Eastern sense, isn't about that. Karma is all in relation to one's dharma and one's dharma isn't necissarily about being good to one's fellow man. [BlkCat] If Karma is supposedly an energy force, it couldn't work as it is supposed too. Good, Karma isn't an energy force. I think of it more as a running tally where we look at the outcome after this life time, but I don't think there is anything in the definition that indicates it is an energy force. Quote: You see, if somebody did something to create bad karma, it would send an energy outwards and it would eventually return, right? Ok....so...energy disperses as it travels...it doesn't get stronger XD....therefore the thought of doing something wrong then getting it back 3x or 100x doesn't seem possible in a sense of Karma being energy. You would be right, if you weren't mistaken on several points. One is that there is no good or bad karma. Karma is just that, karma. Secondly karma doesn't take effect on a person in this life time, it effects them after they are dead and decides what they will be incarnated into. What you are thinking of isn't karma and it doesn't really even echo the idea of karma. It is a Western misunderstanding of an Eastern religion and it may be a proper theory or belief in its own right, but it isn't karma. Quote: However if Karma is something regulated by an Angel or Deity then it's highly possible, a record of our wrongdoings could easily be kept and we could be punished at sometime in the future for them. Karma is regulated by a person's dharma. If you follow your life purpose you will incarnate into a higher being, if you don't then you will incarnate into a lower being. Thanks =P makes alot more sense now lol
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Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:31 am
FeowynMouse Well that almost goes without saying. Generally you do good, you get good. That doesn't always apply though because bad things do happen to generally good people. In my opinion, things happen and sometime it's for a reason, some times it's not. I try to do good anyways because I want other people to think of me as a good person, no other reason. In my opinion expecting other people to treat me that way is a bit naive but part of me likes to hope that others treat me nicely because I'm nice to them. XD I think pretty much everything is meaningful to some degree in a person's life. "Bad things" that happen to good people are required to help that person learn and grow. Yes a person can learn through good experiences too but these sort of "negative" trials and experiences are what we came to earth to learn about (All my own opinion here). As for expecting to be treated nicely, that may be naive, but it has definately been my experience. I would like to think I"m a generally nice person, and for the most part I get the help I need when I need it. Things often have a way of working themselves out for me. Maybe I'm just really lucky, but whatever it is, its working for me ^_^ Quote: I still say it's neutral until acted upon by an outside force. A gunky sort of energy has probably been effected by something else and it has been so effected that it's left a lingering charge. I think over time that charge will go away unless added to later. In theory I'd agree that energy was neutral, in practice I would say probably not. Maybe energy would lose charge over time I don't really know for certain on that. I think I would be more likely to agree with that then not know. It makes sense to some degree though. Like heating or cooling water eventually returns to the tem of the room. I guess it would depend on how frequently one left an imprint and the natural state of the surrounding area. Quote: When I say that energy doesn't move, I mean it doesn't consciously go somewhere. It's like with air as well; in order for air to to make enough impact it needs an outside force to act upon it and move it rapidly. Of course that doesn't account for wind...which as to how that started up I have no idea. XD I think and I could be wrong that the wind moved based off of the natural heating and cooling of the earth and also in slight reaction to the spin of the earth. I figure something outside of human force but still completely natural keeps energy moving in the same sort of way. It doesn't wander around with its own will and accord the way an animal would, but it does still move. Quote: I like the Ripple Effect, personally. I think, as an enlightened magical community, we should be using this instead of karma, even when we talk to people who aren't part of the community. Then again, I'm all for the spreading of right information. I agree though that we don't really need another term for it, but something short and catchy is what people like ya know. XD Mmmm the Ripple Effect was my favorite too. Adding and visual into a title always helps people get it...unless you're blind. I'd agree that we should try to correct misinformation, but depending on the exact nature of the convo, sometimes it doesn't make sense to interupt with a correction. If for example, my friends are talking about "The Life of Ed" correcting them and the TV show might to little but show that I can be uppity and they already know that xd There are other times too where if a conversation is too emotionally charged, which is can be when Western or Eastern karma is involved where I just feel like a tool side tracking the conversation for that reason. Other than that, yeah I'm all for getting people to stop misusing words like karma or titles like Wicca or shaman.
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