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 Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:19 pm
Come on, we have three threads for one topic. So, let's make it one big ol' thread where we can discuss the Pros & Cons of this new idea Webber has gotten.
About a decade ago, Webber decided he wanted to make a sequal to his hit musical Phantom of the Opera by using the book The Phantom of Manhatten by Frederick Forsyth, which he had helped with in terms of content for the book. He only got as far as to write the song "The Heart is Slow to Learn." A video of it can be found on Youtube.com.
It dropped, but recently he has come back in full ego-swing from the hype of his 2004 musical-film, determined to complete it this time. Phans are mixed. A large portion of the phandom loath Forsyth's book because of its horrid portrayal of the characters and totally off-the-wall plot.
Webber says he is going to leave out some aspects of the book he doesn't agree with, but no one can say for sure just what those things will be.
DISCUSS:
- The very real possibility of PotO having a sequal
- Phantom of the Manhatten
- Do you like the idea? Yes or no and say why.
- What this sequal could do to and for the phandom
- Will the sequal bring more fanbrats?
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:22 pm
This is a list I constructed myself on everything wrong I found with The Phantom of Manhatten. I went chapter-by-chapter for these. If you have more to add, PM me and I will add them to the list with credit to you.
THINGS WRONG WITH THE PHANTOM OF MANHATTAN
• The book starts with Mme Giry dying—alone. Neither Meg nor Christine are at her side
• Mme Giry, like in the Musical, is not a boxkeeper
• Erik knew his father
• Erik’s father was a raging drunkard and worked for the circus
• Instead of escaping from home and finding his way into the Side Show, Erik’s father sells him to the Show Master
• Erik is given a German last name—Muhlheim
• In PoM, Erik is 38
• Forysth places Erik as 28 at the time of the original story
• Erik’s family and he are said to hail from a German city
• Darius, Erik’s youthful assistant, hails the name of The Persian’s assistant from the original novel
• Darius turns Erik into a worshipper of Mammon, “The Great Master” who is the god of gold and riches
• Erik wore a clown mask to move during the day on Coney Island and in parts of Manhattan
• When mugged, instead of fighting back or using his agility to dodge the blows, Erik is beaten into a bloody pulp, as helpless as a child
• For greed’s purpose only, Erik stooped as low as to fix boxing matches so he would win
• The monkey musical box from the musical is used, yet Christine does not recognize it when her son receives the gift
• Instead, Christine only recognizes it with utter fear when the tune the box plays is “Masquerade.” She recognizes it and gives it that title, as if her life had actually been a musical
• Pierre, Christine’s son, has a tutor of Irish descent who gets near an entire chapter on his background which serves no purpose whatsoever to the plot or foreshadowing of it
• Raoul, from an incident years ago, was rendered unable to consummate with a woman
• Mme Giry knows Raoul personally and referred to him as “one of her boys” where in the Musical she only knows him as “Monsieur le Vicomte”
• Pierre is Erik and Christine’s child; the result of an hour they spent together while Raoul was being tortured
• There is instability in the years between the original plot and PoM. At first it is a 12 year difference; then suddenly without mention of another year passing it becomes 13 years
•Forsythe rapes every known ALW timeline just so he can have his little references to Oscar Hammerstein and Nellie Melba. Movie set; 1870; Musical set: 1881; PoM sets main events as: 1893. (pointed out by PhantomoftheFox)
• Not only is Meg not with her mother when she dies, she doesn't even seem aware of the fact that she's dead. (pointed out by PhantomoftheFox)
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 5:14 pm
One question is "What is this incident which effectively castrated (in a sense) Raoul?" He must've imagined an attack by Erik fangirls on an unsuspecting Raoul.
Another is: will ALW give Pierre his own solo?
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:45 pm
To answer:
In short, as a 16 year old military cadet, Raoul got shot in the crotch trying to save some random girl from being mugged. xD How that happens, I'm not sure. Mme. Giry happened to be witness and took him to a hospital, but in order to save his life and stop the bleeding they basically had to castrate him.
Also: Quite probably. Pierre (I can't type it without snickering! xD) has a solo in the opera Erik writes for Christine to star in. (Yes, again. Forsythe has Erik pull the exact same trick twice.) He also has a few scenes that seem well set-up for a musical number.
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:46 pm
This is horrible. I haven't been able to force myself to read the book, but I've heard enough about it to dread the thought of it being made into a movie.
My roommate nearly died when I told her about this. She's actually read the book, and her first response was that it was absolutely horrible and should never be made. Her second response involved writing many letters to ALW. My first response...was to bind him, gag him, and sell him on ebay to the highest bidder.
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Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:54 pm
This is awful. The mere fact of it being a musical sequal practically dooms it from the start. I mean, has anyone here ever heard of Annie II? I highly doubt it. Yes, it was a real play, and it flopped in the first week.This is exactly what's going to happen to POTO, especially since it's based on POM.
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:38 am
Honestly, the very idea of a sequeal makes me squirm. I tried to read PoM because it was Phantom related, that reason and that alone. I couldn't do it, and I've read complete garbage before. This was just insulting, utterly insulting, to both Lerous and Webber. I can only see Webber praising such idiotic spew is he were both drunk and high at the time, while being half asleep at midnight. To think that he would approve such a thing is disgraceful. I would honestly boycott Webber if he succeeds in doing doing so. I love his stuff, but that just kicks you down where it hurts.
I think that Forsyth needs to do research if he dares to write another book. How can he dismantel all that is Phantom? To adjust the ages and all that... not to mention his compelte obvious disgust for Raoul. The characters are so ridiculously inhuman--fake. They aren't convincable. Even with the plot twisted it isn't a sensible way to depict characters.
I need to hear this horrid music he made for it. "Learn to Lonely" was a disgrace, though I did like the tune. It had nothign to do with the play and did not fit in properly. If this sequel song is as bad as that then I shudder.
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:25 pm
Well Kira, Forsyth was convinced that Leroux was an idiot, saying the man got all the facts wrong and that Webber "fixed" them. As far as I know he refused to do research for the book and went only on what he and Webber discussed and then good ol' fashioned BSing.
Webber himself is only doing this to pull more money into his bank account. He has yet another longest-running Broadway musical, has a successful movie from it (depending on one's opinion of course), and merchandising left and right. Not to mention the recent permanent Vegas theater for PotO.
He's greedy and he does not care that he is destroying the original story to do what he wants. Heck, he didn't even bother reading the Leroux novel when he started writing the musical to begin with. The man won't learn to stop. It's rather like Disney and their sequals and now trilogies. If one is successful, they half-a** a continuation that doesn't need to be there and end up with their feet in their mouths because of it.
I wrote an e-mail to Mr. Webber about the sequal sent from his own website that he blogs on and updates himself, but I've yet to hear a reply. I doubt I will.
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:49 pm
So Forsynth had no idea whatsoever that Webber got the idea from Ken Hill? Forsynth needs a good beating. And come on, Erik would never use the same trick twice: if it didn't work the first time, Erik isn't -or rather, wasn't- such an idiot that he'd try it again.
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:44 pm
I think if he knew, he didn't care. He'n Webber are good friends, from the sounds of it.
I just wonder if Forsyth is letting Webber take the ideas he turned into a book? I mean, he'd be changing some of the stuff in it and hopefully wouldn't use the same title as the book. Isn't that copyright infringement?
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:59 pm
Another thing wrong with the book: the title.
I'm not saying Erik wouldn't travel to America, but Phantom of Manhattan sounds like Forsyth turned it into some sort of super-campy "Sex and the City" -esque type of thing.
I haven't been able to bear reading the book, but perhaps I should. Maybe I'm just unnecissarily biased against it.
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:26 pm
Well I'm not trying to turn people against the book entirely since I like to have people make their own decision, but I thought discussing its faults would just bring to light why a sequal is a bad idea.
I know a couple people who enjoy the book. It isn't bad, but the nonsense in the book puts me off.
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Posted: Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:44 pm
Utakan I just wonder if Forsyth is letting Webber take the ideas he turned into a book? I mean, he'd be changing some of the stuff in it and hopefully wouldn't use the same title as the book. Isn't that copyright infringement? Well Webber was the one who asked Forsyth to write the book, with the express intention of it being the basis for a new musical. Besides, Webber said he and Forsyth were working together on fixing PoM this time around. You know, after listening to him I'm not entirely sure Webber is just doing this for the money. Scary as the thought is, he may actually think he's giving people (namely the adoring teenybopper phanbrats who flocked to his movie) what they want. Welcometomyhell: Not only does Erik use one trick twice- luring Christine to America to star in an opera he'd written in order to get her (and their son) within reach- he uses about two or three on top of writing an 'opera' that's a thinly veiled version of the POTO musical events. I'm very bored tonight and I need to stretch my fingers out or they'll cramp up, so here's the synopsis of Erik's Angel of Shiloh in Forsyth's own words... (which is also a good example of his writing style for those thinking of reading the book.) "...introducing a completely new opera in the modern style by an unknown (and amazingly still anonymous) American composer...
The story is set in our own Civil War of only forty years ago and is therefore of immediate signifigance to any American of North or South. In Act One we meet the dashing young Connecticut lawyer Miles Regan, hopelessly in love with Eugenie Delarue, the beautiful daughter of a wealthy plantation owner of Virginia. The former role was taken by rising American tenor David Melrose until something most strange occurred- but more of this anon. The couple duly plight their troth and exchange golden rings. As the Southern belle Mme. de Chagny was magnificent and her simple girlish pleasure at the proposal of the man she loves, expressed in the aria "With this ring forever," communicated that delight to the whole audience.
The neighboring plantation owner, Joshua Howard, magnificently sung by Alessandro Gonci, has also been the suitor for her hand in marriage but accepts his rejection and heartbreak like the gentleman he is. But the clouds of war are looming and at the end of the act the first guns fire on Fort Sumter, and the Union is at war with the Confederacy. The young lovers have to part. Regan explains that he has no choice but to return to Connecticut and fight for the North. Miss Delarue knows she must stay with her family, all dedicated to the South. The act ends with one heartending duet as the lovers part, not knowing if they will ever meet again.
For Act Two, two years have passed and Eugenie Delarue has volunteered as a nurse in a hospital just after the bloody Battle of Shiloh. We see her selfless devotion to the terribly injured young men in uniforms of both sides as they are brought in, a formerly sheltered plantation belle now exposed to all the filth and pain of a front-line hospital. In a single and utterly moving aria she asks "Why must these young men die?"
Her former neighbor and suitor is now Colonel Howard, commanding the regiment occupying the site of the hospital. He resumes his courtship, seeking to persuade her to forget her lost fiance in the Union Army and accept him instead. She is half decided so to do when a new arrival is brought in. He is a Union officer, terribly injured when a powder magazine exploded in his face. This face is swathed in surgical gauze, clearly ruined beyond repair. Even as he remains unconscious Miss Delarue recognizes the gold ring upon one finger, the same ring she offered two years ago. The tragic officer is indeed Captain Regan, still sung by David Melrose. When he awakes, he quickly recognizes his fiancee (sic) but does not realize that he himself has been recognized while asleep. There is a suprermely ironic scene in which, from his bed and helpless, he witnesses Colonel Howard enter the ward and press his suit yet again with Miss Delarue, trying to convince her that her lover must by now be dead, when she and we know that he lies a few feet away. This act ends when Captain Regan perceives that she knows who he is behind the bandages and, seeing himself for the first time in a mirror, realizes that the once handsome face is now a ruin. He seeks to snatch a revolver from a guard and end his own life, but the Confederate soldier and two Union prisoner/patients restrain him.
The third act is the climax and deeply moving it turns out to be. For Colonel Howard announces that to his new knowledge Eugenie's former fiance is none other than the leader of the fearsome Regan's Raiders, who have carried out devastating ambushes behind the lines. As such he will, upon capture, be subjected to a drumhead court-martial and shot.
Eugenie Delarue is now in a terrible dilemma. Should she betray the Confederacy by keeping her knowledge to herself, or denounce the man she still loves? At this point a brief armstice is announced to enable an exchange of prisoners deemed permanently hors de combat. The man with the destroyed face qualifies for inclusion in the exchange; covered wagons arrive with wounded Confederate soldiers from the North, to pick up their own crippled soldiers in the hands of the South.
At this point I must describe the amazing events that happened backstage during the entr'acte. It seems that Mr. Melrose sprayed a soothing linctus upon his throat to ease tha larynx. It must have been contaminated in some way, for within seconds he was croaking like a frog. Disaster!! (sic) The curtain was about to rise. Then appeared an understudy, miraculously made up for the part. His face swathed in bandages, just in time to step into the breach.
Normally this would have been a terrible disappointment for the audience. But in this case all the gods of opera must have been smiling upon Mr. Hammerstein.* The understudy, unlisted in the program and still unknown to me, sang in a tenor to match that of the great Signor Gonci himself.
Miss Delarue decided that as Captain Regan would never fight again she had no need to reveal what she knew of the man in the mask. As the wagons prepared to roll north Colonel Howard learned that somewhere the wanted leader of Regan's Raiders had been injured and was presumably behind Confederate lines. Notices offering a reward for his capture were posted. Every Union soldier leaving for the North was compared with a sketch of Regan's face. To no avail. For by now Captain Regan has no face.
As the soldiers destined to be repatriated to the North wait through the night for their dawn departure, we are treated to a most charming interlude. Colonel Howard, the great Gonci himseelf, has throughout the action been attended by a young aide-de-camp, no more than a boy of perhaps thirteen. Until this point he has uttered no sound. But as one of the Union soldiers tries to coax a tune out of his soldier's fiddle the boy quietly takes the instrument from him and plays a beautiful melody as if he were handling a Stradivarius. One of the wounded men asks if he can sing the song of the tune; in answer the boy lays aside the fiddle and gives us an aria in a treble of such sweet clarity that I know it brought a lump to the throat of almost everyone present. And when I studied my program for his name, lo! he turned out to be none other than Master Pierre de Chagny, son of the diva herself. So, a chip off the old block.
In the parting scene of quite exquisite pathos Miss Delarue and her Unionist fiance say their farewells. Mme. de Chagny had already sung throughout with a purity of voice normally ascribed only to angels. But now she rose to new and seemingly unattainable heights of vocal beauty, the like of which I have never heard. As she began the aria "Will we never meet again?" she seemed to be singing her heart out, and as the unknown understudy returned the ring she had given him with the words "Take back this band" I saw a thousand squares of cambric fly to the faces of the ladies of New York.
It was an evening that will remain in the hearts and minds of any who were there. I swear I saw the normally fiercely disciplined Maestro Campanini almost in tears as Mme. de Chagny, alone on the stage and lit only by candle lamps in the darkened hospital ward, brought the opera to a close with "Oh, Cruel War." "-- Phantom of Manhatten, Chapter 14 'The Review of Gaylord Springs'. * Yes, Erik's producer is none other than THE Oscar Hammerstein in this. And set to replace Christine after she leaves the cast is Nellie Melba. Forsyth does love his little historical references.
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:25 pm
This is kind of off-topic, but...isn't sequel spelled with two e's?
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:57 pm
I'm pretty sure that I am going to cry once this comes out. xD
I won't go to see it at all. Maybe watch some bootlegs though.
If it's a movie I'll rent it and resist all urge of burning the hell out of it. xD
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