Welcome to Gaia! ::

Before I start, I'm not flaming Catholics, I'm disagreeing with some of their beliefs.

----

I believe it does make a difference, my brother in Christ. I believe that Catholics have made some very big mistakes. I'll name just a few of them...

Baptism: Catholics baptise people when they're babies. The Word teaches baptism as a public decloration of the love you have for Christ. When you love God and Christ with all your heart, you are dipped into the watery grave, and are born again. Baptism should be the individuals choice to move closer to God. There's nothing wrong with people devoting babies to God, but when you choose the path of baptism for them, especially sine the baby doesn't even know what your doing, it takes value out of it.

Prayer: The Bible teaches that one should pray to God and to Christ. It sys not to pray to anyone but God and Christ, actually. So then why do Catholics pray to Mary, saints, etc? I dont believe this is right. I believe that if you have a problem, God and Christ are the ones to pray to, not the lady who gave virgin birth.

Forgiveness: I really think it's wrong how you go to a preist for forgiveness. I don't like it. It's really as simple as that. The Bible says that the only way you can be truely forgiven is when you confess your sins to God, not to a human being. That's bothers the heck out of me.

--

Hopefully you can see a little bit of how being a Catholic does make a difference. I just want to say again that I'm NOT bashing Catholics, I'm just saying some things I dont believe. I think some things are a huge mistake. I also want to clarify that I do know that every church has it's mistakes, so really these are just some of the mistakes that the Catholic church has. I think they should fix it.

Well, first of all, I do respect your viewpoint. I know that in the past the Catholic Church has made mistakes, but that doesnt meant that the Church will always commit them; if the Church learns more about God's message then of course it will change to better suit it, just like Vatican II. But, I would also like to clarify a few things.

First of all, baptism is the sacrament by which babies and even older people to be initiated into the Church and grow in the community. However, this does not mean that the baby is now in the Churh forever. This is why we have Confirmation; this sacrament basically confirms one's faith in the Church and this, unlike Baptism, is a person's own choice.

With regards to prayer, we are not worshipping the saints, although I know that you did not say that. By praying to them, we get closer to God and Jesus; sometimes it is easier to follow perhaps a more tangible person and example. By doing so, we get closer to God because these saints have lived the life that God wanted them to live.

Lastly, the priest does not forgive one's sins, he merely absolves them. God is the only one who can forgive sins. Sin affects three basic aspects: God, yourself, and others. When God forgives, he reconciles yourself with Himself. When the priest absolves, he reconciles you with the community again. Note how this is different from forgiving.

---

So, just to get those out there I guess... But I am not saying that this is the way its going to stay forever. I seriously doubt that we know all that God wants us to know, and you should doubt that too. As God reveals more of himself to us, the Church will adapt to better suit them.

What I have learned about baptism is that, as ham(k) put it, baptism is a ritual that is to publicly announce your decision to follow Christ. This involves dieing to your selfish sinful ways and becoming transformed into a loving follower of Christ, which is symbolically displayed in baptism by being submerged to symbolize dieing and being buried, then returning from the "grave" to live again with your sins washed away, as the water can rinse the dirt from your body. Its very powerful if you choose to use the ritual as such. I believe that as far as babies go, that an anointing should satisfy what baptizing does now. The only problem with that is so many churches/church members have made this a tradition for so long, its hard to break a tradition that isn't really hurting anything(is it?). It is for this reason that I believe that it should be up to the family/individual to decide when one should be baptized and to make sure that if the person can understand what baptism is then they should know exactly what is involved.

Praying to anyone other that God, is kind of risky in my opinion. He is the one that made us and desires a relationship with us. If we pray to/through someone else, doesn't that create some distance between God and us? Now, rolandgarros when you pray to the saints, how do you do so? I think the problem here is that we don't understand how we can pray to anyone but God.

I guess from what I'm am learning from you is that the Catholic church is very strict who joins/participates in the Catholic community, why is that?

This is from a protestant view anyways, and our churches aren't any better, we each have our own flaws in the way we choose to perform rituals to get close to God, which is part of the flaw in an established church; God wants a relationship with us, not for us to just be obedient, and rituals have a habit of becoming the main goal of some people, which takes away from the relationship. Above all, there is only one way to God and thats through Jesus Christ, and that is something we all can agree on.

I completely agree with what you guys are saying. I agree with what Lithanus said about baptism and such. I also agree with him and Imotoku when they say that no denomination is better than another. I also dont think denomination matters, since we're all in the family of Christ. I dont even have a denomination. I was baptised in and attend a SDA church, but I dont ever call myself that. I never even mention that. I call myself a Christ follower, since I dont want to belong to a church, I want to belong to God..if that makes any sence to you guys...

As for what rolandgarros said about prayer..I truely dont believe that praying to someone other than God is alright. I understand that you're not worshiping those you pray to though. Some people do, however, worship saints. Not saying you do, but there are some. But Lithanus is right. How will praying to saints, who I consider to be dead btw, going to get you closer to God?

It's okay to see them as good moral teachers, but why pray to them?

What do Catholics teach about the Holy Spirit then? What I've learned is that the Holy Spirit translates not only our intentions, but also our feelings to God. Does the Catholic church teach anything different? If not, then going through the saints as a mediator seems pointless. It would be better if you just went through a priest or friend/role model in my opinion, that way you can get an immediate response if you wanted one, or even just a sympathetic ear. Also, it is written that Jesus is our mediator, which means no one else is necessary.

I'm sorry to barrage you with all this stuff. Its just these points that drive me away from Catholicism. I hope you bear this with good will, I just want to hear the Catholic positions on these issues.

For ham(k) I believe the reason Catholics pray to specific saints, is because each saint had different qualities about them that you could relate to and so you if you had a specific prayer that you wanted more consolation from, you would pray to/through the saint that could have related to that situation the best. This could theoretically bring you closer to God because your prayer is being mediated through a saint that has experienced what you are going through, which makes you confident that you prayer will be understood. Is that right rolandgarros?

Well, first of all the Holy Spirit is part of the Trinity. Here a quote from the CCC about the Holy Spirit

-CCC 684

Thus, the Holy Spirit helps us to know the Father and the Son more. The Holy Spirit does this in many ways, but perhaps you have heard of the gifts of the Holy Spirit? These gifts help us to know God and Jesus more. As far as being a mediator, I did not find anything about that in the CCC. With regards to the thought that praying to saints helps you because maybe they were in the same situation, sure it is nice to ask a saint to intercede based on the fact that they were probably in the same situation, but lets stick away from the term "pray", because that word brings up connotations of "worship"

Yeah, your welcome, and especially thank you very much that you are so understanding... On the regular ED boards I am usually shot down. But thank you so much