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ryokomayuka

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:00 am


http://www.topix.net/content/ap/2486062417013081536326942816732990824890?threadid=H8MV7FDI8VRRA2PH

Quote:
Portugal Fails to Overturn Abortion Law
The Associated Press

By BARRY HATTON

February 11, 2007

Even though the (referendum) result is not binding, we believe it should be democratically respected Voters failed to overturn Portugal's strict abortion law Sunday because of low turnout at the polls, but the prime minister nonetheless vowed to relax the restriction through legislation in the conservative Roman Catholic country.

With nearly all the votes counted, almost 60 percent of voters approved the referendum allowing women to opt for abortions up to the 10th week of pregnancy, while slightly more than 40 percent opposed it.

However, under Portuguese law more than 50 percent of the country's 8.9 million registered voters must participate in a referendum to make the ballot valid. The turnout Sunday was 44 percent.

Prime Minister Jose Socrates, leader of the center-left Socialist Party, said he was undeterred by the failure of the referendum and would stick to his pre-ballot pledge to change the law through parliament.

'The people have spoken and they have spoken in a clear voice,' Socrates said.

The result 'reinforced the political and legislative legitimacy' of his plan to introduce a bill that would legalize abortions up to the 10th week of pregnancy, he said. His party holds an overwhelming majority in parliament.

Debate over the abortion law, one of the most restrictive in the European Union, pitted the Socialist government against conservative parties and the Catholic Church, which claims more than 90 percent of Portuguese as followers.

Under current law, the procedure is allowed only in cases of rape, fetal malformation or if a mother's health is in danger, and only in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.

In most other EU nations, abortion is permitted within much broader limits. Women can ask for abortions up to the 24th week of pregnancy in Britain and up to the 12th week in Germany, France and Italy.

Church officials made no immediate comment on the referendum.

Luis Marques Mendes, leader of the main opposition Social Democratic Party, said he would not stand in the way of granting broader abortion rights despite his opposition during the referendum campaign.

'Even though the (referendum) result is not binding, we believe it should be democratically respected,' he said.

It was the second time in less than 10 years that a referendum on the deeply divisive issue failed to draw enough voters in Portugal. In 1998, a majority of voters rejected a similar proposal; the referendum was declared void because of a low turnout, and Portugal's policy remained unchanged.

Socrates, whose party took power in a landslide victory almost two years ago after he promised broad reforms and national modernization, described Portugal's current law as 'backward.'

One voter, Carlos Sousa, 56, condemned the existing legislation Sunday: 'It's a bad law, not suited to our society.'

But Maria Candida Duarte, 72, said she wanted to keep the strict policies in place.

'It's imperative to maintain our position. A child has a right to life _ from conception,' she said.

The current law merely drives abortion underground, Socrates said. Women seeking to terminate their pregnancies travel to EU countries where it is legal, especially to private clinics across the border in Spain where abortion is permitted on psychological grounds, or resort to shady, back-alley clinics at home.

Abortion rights activists say about 10,000 women are hospitalized every year with complications arising from botched, illegal abortions.

'Portugal will now tackle abortion in the same way as most other developed European countries,' Socrates said. Women seeking an abortion will first go through counseling 'so that the decision is a considered one, not taken out of desperation,' he said.

It could still be some time, however, before the law is changed. A bill would have to be voted on first in parliament and then go to the president for approval. It would come into force only when the new legislation is published in the public records _ a procedure that usually takes several months.


What do you think?
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:16 am


Quote:
Under current law, the procedure is allowed only in cases of rape, fetal malformation or if a mother's health is in danger, and only in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.

Abortion rights activists say about 10,000 women are hospitalized every year with complications arising from botched, illegal abortions.


I want to know what the hell is up with this (if it's true). Have they not heard of birth control, or at least abstinence? What makes women so desperate when they get pregnant?

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lymelady
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:11 pm


That's what happens when everyone's a Catholic! ABUSE! ABUSE!

I'd like to know where the numbers come from though. Remember the falsified reports made about unsafe abortion deaths and injuries in order to sway the public in the late 60s, early 70s?

I'm not saying it's definitely false information, just, the people giving the numbers...are the people who want abortion to be legal. It's exactly what happened here, later on it turned out they were lies.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:15 pm


seriously... the worst thing about abortion is that it's not. neccesary. at. all.

don't want kids? don't make one.

divineseraph


Scribblemouse

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:26 pm


divineseraph
seriously... the worst thing about abortion is that it's not. neccesary. at. all.

don't want kids? don't make one.


Contraception fails, you know stare I would say that sex with contraception isn't making a baby, usually.

Anyway, abortion would be necessary if the mother's life were in danger. If abortion were made illegal altogether, people who have to have them for medical reasons could be pretty much sentenced to death stare I don't think it's at all fair to effectively force someone to die for their baby - who in some cases could die as well as the mother anyway. I don't think it's fair on the baby, either.

So I don't think it's true to say that abortion isn't necessary at all.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:48 pm


apparently from what I hear in europe overall the pro-life movement has been gaining, especially with the low birth rate. This is a very good sign. Now if only we can gain some momentum of our own.........

karllikespies


A Menina Pianista

PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 2:50 pm


I'm half Portuguese... sad They're going for this amount of weeks now for any reason, right? Next time, whenever that is, there will be even more weeks... but how can the women be that desperate, to go to other places? I know condoms fail, but really...
PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:43 pm


Scribblemouse
divineseraph
seriously... the worst thing about abortion is that it's not. neccesary. at. all.

don't want kids? don't make one.


Contraception fails, you know stare I would say that sex with contraception isn't making a baby, usually.

Anyway, abortion would be necessary if the mother's life were in danger. If abortion were made illegal altogether, people who have to have them for medical reasons could be pretty much sentenced to death stare I don't think it's at all fair to effectively force someone to die for their baby - who in some cases could die as well as the mother anyway. I don't think it's fair on the baby, either.

So I don't think it's true to say that abortion isn't necessary at all.
If the "abortion" is necessary for medical purposes, then it is not an abortion, in my opinion. Just like it's not murder if you kill someone in self defense.

Technically, it is abortion. But I'm fairly certain that he was trying to say abortion isn't necessary in the ways that Pro-Choicers make it out to be necessary; To protect women's rights in the workplace and at school, etc. Not that it should never, ever, ever be done, even if the mother's life is at risk.

I.Am
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lymelady
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:14 am


I firmly believe if you have sex, you are risking pregnancy and you know it. If your solution to getting pregnant is to kill your child, maybe you shouldn't be having sex.

But that is something that bothers me. Portugal says it's only legal to save the life of the mother in the first trimester, but a lot of deadly complications can come up later on. Unless I'm misreading this, but,

Quote:
Under current law, the procedure is allowed only in cases of rape, fetal malformation or if a mother's health is in danger, and only in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy.


That looks pretty clear to me.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 6:36 am


I.Am
Scribblemouse
divineseraph
seriously... the worst thing about abortion is that it's not. neccesary. at. all.

don't want kids? don't make one.


Contraception fails, you know stare I would say that sex with contraception isn't making a baby, usually.

Anyway, abortion would be necessary if the mother's life were in danger. If abortion were made illegal altogether, people who have to have them for medical reasons could be pretty much sentenced to death stare I don't think it's at all fair to effectively force someone to die for their baby - who in some cases could die as well as the mother anyway. I don't think it's fair on the baby, either.

So I don't think it's true to say that abortion isn't necessary at all.
If the "abortion" is necessary for medical purposes, then it is not an abortion, in my opinion. Just like it's not murder if you kill someone in self defense.

Technically, it is abortion. But I'm fairly certain that he was trying to say abortion isn't necessary in the ways that Pro-Choicers make it out to be necessary; To protect women's rights in the workplace and at school, etc. Not that it should never, ever, ever be done, even if the mother's life is at risk.


I'm sorry, I don't want to die so that there's a slight chance my baby will live stare I don't want to be in a hospital one day, pregnant, and be told 'If you go through with this pregnancy, there's a slight chance that your baby will live, but you're definitely going to die. Oh well, nice knowing you. What, get rid of the baby? YOU MURDERER!'

I don't want my family to lose two people in one go, or for my baby to come into the world without a mother. I'm incredibly selfish that way.

Scribblemouse


lymelady
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:13 am


Scribblemouse
I.Am
Scribblemouse
divineseraph
seriously... the worst thing about abortion is that it's not. neccesary. at. all.

don't want kids? don't make one.


Contraception fails, you know stare I would say that sex with contraception isn't making a baby, usually.

Anyway, abortion would be necessary if the mother's life were in danger. If abortion were made illegal altogether, people who have to have them for medical reasons could be pretty much sentenced to death stare I don't think it's at all fair to effectively force someone to die for their baby - who in some cases could die as well as the mother anyway. I don't think it's fair on the baby, either.

So I don't think it's true to say that abortion isn't necessary at all.
If the "abortion" is necessary for medical purposes, then it is not an abortion, in my opinion. Just like it's not murder if you kill someone in self defense.

Technically, it is abortion. But I'm fairly certain that he was trying to say abortion isn't necessary in the ways that Pro-Choicers make it out to be necessary; To protect women's rights in the workplace and at school, etc. Not that it should never, ever, ever be done, even if the mother's life is at risk.


I'm sorry, I don't want to die so that there's a slight chance my baby will live stare I don't want to be in a hospital one day, pregnant, and be told 'If you go through with this pregnancy, there's a slight chance that your baby will live, but you're definitely going to die. Oh well, nice knowing you. What, get rid of the baby? YOU MURDERER!'

I don't want my family to lose two people in one go, or for my baby to come into the world without a mother. I'm incredibly selfish that way.
No you aren't, and he's not saying you are. He's agreeing with you and saying that abortion to save a life isn't the same as having an abortion done for other reasons because it's self defense.

He's saying divine probably didn't mean that women should die rather than abort and that divine is probably talking about abortion for reasons other than the one that really IS necessary. Of course, now I'm speaking for Andy speaking for Divine so I'm getting confused, but Andy's not saying, GO DIE, he's saying, it's not the same to abort for medical reasons.
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:40 pm


lymelady
Scribblemouse
I.Am
Scribblemouse
divineseraph
seriously... the worst thing about abortion is that it's not. neccesary. at. all.

don't want kids? don't make one.


Contraception fails, you know stare I would say that sex with contraception isn't making a baby, usually.

Anyway, abortion would be necessary if the mother's life were in danger. If abortion were made illegal altogether, people who have to have them for medical reasons could be pretty much sentenced to death stare I don't think it's at all fair to effectively force someone to die for their baby - who in some cases could die as well as the mother anyway. I don't think it's fair on the baby, either.

So I don't think it's true to say that abortion isn't necessary at all.
If the "abortion" is necessary for medical purposes, then it is not an abortion, in my opinion. Just like it's not murder if you kill someone in self defense.

Technically, it is abortion. But I'm fairly certain that he was trying to say abortion isn't necessary in the ways that Pro-Choicers make it out to be necessary; To protect women's rights in the workplace and at school, etc. Not that it should never, ever, ever be done, even if the mother's life is at risk.


I'm sorry, I don't want to die so that there's a slight chance my baby will live stare I don't want to be in a hospital one day, pregnant, and be told 'If you go through with this pregnancy, there's a slight chance that your baby will live, but you're definitely going to die. Oh well, nice knowing you. What, get rid of the baby? YOU MURDERER!'

I don't want my family to lose two people in one go, or for my baby to come into the world without a mother. I'm incredibly selfish that way.
No you aren't, and he's not saying you are. He's agreeing with you and saying that abortion to save a life isn't the same as having an abortion done for other reasons because it's self defense.

He's saying divine probably didn't mean that women should die rather than abort and that divine is probably talking about abortion for reasons other than the one that really IS necessary. Of course, now I'm speaking for Andy speaking for Divine so I'm getting confused, but Andy's not saying, GO DIE, he's saying, it's not the same to abort for medical reasons.


Well he should have worded it better. It looked to me like he was saying that abortion should never, ever be done, even if the mother's life were at risk.

Scribblemouse


andyz cool

PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 7:34 pm


Quote:


Abortion rights activists say about 10,000 women are hospitalized every year with complications arising from botched, illegal abortions.


here's a thought: don't try to kill people and maybe you won't get hurt

duh...
PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:41 pm


Scribblemouse
lymelady
Scribblemouse
I.Am
Scribblemouse
divineseraph
seriously... the worst thing about abortion is that it's not. neccesary. at. all.

don't want kids? don't make one.


Contraception fails, you know stare I would say that sex with contraception isn't making a baby, usually.

Anyway, abortion would be necessary if the mother's life were in danger. If abortion were made illegal altogether, people who have to have them for medical reasons could be pretty much sentenced to death stare I don't think it's at all fair to effectively force someone to die for their baby - who in some cases could die as well as the mother anyway. I don't think it's fair on the baby, either.

So I don't think it's true to say that abortion isn't necessary at all.
If the "abortion" is necessary for medical purposes, then it is not an abortion, in my opinion. Just like it's not murder if you kill someone in self defense.

Technically, it is abortion. But I'm fairly certain that he was trying to say abortion isn't necessary in the ways that Pro-Choicers make it out to be necessary; To protect women's rights in the workplace and at school, etc. Not that it should never, ever, ever be done, even if the mother's life is at risk.


I'm sorry, I don't want to die so that there's a slight chance my baby will live stare I don't want to be in a hospital one day, pregnant, and be told 'If you go through with this pregnancy, there's a slight chance that your baby will live, but you're definitely going to die. Oh well, nice knowing you. What, get rid of the baby? YOU MURDERER!'

I don't want my family to lose two people in one go, or for my baby to come into the world without a mother. I'm incredibly selfish that way.
No you aren't, and he's not saying you are. He's agreeing with you and saying that abortion to save a life isn't the same as having an abortion done for other reasons because it's self defense.

He's saying divine probably didn't mean that women should die rather than abort and that divine is probably talking about abortion for reasons other than the one that really IS necessary. Of course, now I'm speaking for Andy speaking for Divine so I'm getting confused, but Andy's not saying, GO DIE, he's saying, it's not the same to abort for medical reasons.


Well he should have worded it better. It looked to me like he was saying that abortion should never, ever be done, even if the mother's life were at risk.
Yes, I did use that exact phrasing. Only the first word in the sentence was "Not" making the sentence "Not that abortion should never, ever be done, even if the mother's life were at risk," and totally changing the meaning of the sentence. confused

Sorry, I did phrase it someone confusingly, but if you read the whole post, my main point is that I don't feel like an abortion for medical purposes (Life of the mother-like) is really an abortion at all, because the purpose is to save the mother, not kill the child.

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lymelady
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 3:02 am


He posted it clearly enough so that I could tell what it was saying. If you think Andy wants women to die rather than have abortion available, you don't know him at all. I don't know what sort of person you think he is, but he's not in favor of people dying because they were denied the right to choose to live. That is why he is in this guild. That is why almost everyone in this guild is here.

It is not about the "cewt whiddle bebee" being born. It is about preserving life, and caring for life at its earliest stages.
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