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Xxcyber-punkxX-

PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 4:25 pm


okay
He says space and time are the same thing (sorta)

I say
If you freeze time, everything in space 'stops'

Would it really matter if you froze space or time?
Could you theoretically freeze space, and thus freeze tiem

BUT theres a question

hold on, einstein said if you wre to go c then you would end up frozen compared to everyone else

(go around the world at c and everyone else if 40 while you are the same

That doesn't make sense
or deos it?

help me out to understand Einstein
PostPosted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 7:24 pm


What is your current level of mathematics?
[[CyBeR-PuNk]]
He says space and time are the same thing (sorta)

No: one can't "turn around" in time like one can in space. Think of the Pythagorean theorem c² = a² + b², which is equivalent to the standard distance formula d = sqrt[ Δx² + Δy² ] in the coordinate plane. In special relativity, spacetime interval (distance) is calculated according to τ = sqrt[ Δt² - Δx² ] instead. The minus sign makes the geometry somewhat different.

[[CyBeR-PuNk]]
Would it really matter if you froze space or time? Could you theoretically freeze space, and thus freeze tiem

One can't "freeze" either.

[[CyBeR-PuNk]]
hold on, einstein said if you wre to go c then you would end up frozen compared to everyone else

No, Einstein said that as one approaches the speed of light, the relative rate of time (measured by you vs. measured by the stationary frame) approaches zero, and that you can't go the speed of light.

[[CyBeR-PuNk]]
That doesn't make sense or deos it?

It makes a lot of sense if you're familiar with coordinate geometry. Take the relation x² + y² = 1 and graph it in the (x,y) coordinate plane. This is a circle, and one can rotate along it any which way one likes--if you're at any particular place on the circle, you can get to any other place on it just by going along it. Now, in the (t,x) coordinate plane of special relativity, graph t² - x² = 1 instead, which will be a hyperbola with two asymptotes x = ±t. Note that you can't rotate just anywhere along the hyperbola--specifically, if you're at some particular place along it, you can't get to the asymptotes (here, representing lightspeed) or the other branch of the hyperbola (i.e., reverse your sense of time).

VorpalNeko
Captain


SimpleSimples

PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:51 pm


VorpalNeko
What is your current level of mathematics?
[[CyBeR-PuNk]]
He says space and time are the same thing (sorta)

No: one can't "turn around" in time like one can in space. Think of the Pythagorean theorem c² = a² + b², which is equivalent to the standard distance formula d = sqrt[ Δx² + Δy² ] in the coordinate plane. In special relativity, spacetime interval (distance) is calculated according to τ = sqrt[ Δt² - Δx² ] instead. The minus sign makes the geometry somewhat different.

[[CyBeR-PuNk]]
Would it really matter if you froze space or time? Could you theoretically freeze space, and thus freeze tiem

One can't "freeze" either.

[[CyBeR-PuNk]]
hold on, einstein said if you wre to go c then you would end up frozen compared to everyone else

No, Einstein said that as one approaches the speed of light, the relative rate of time (measured by you vs. measured by the stationary frame) approaches zero, and that you can't go the speed of light.

[[CyBeR-PuNk]]
That doesn't make sense or deos it?

It makes a lot of sense if you're familiar with coordinate geometry. Take the relation x² + y² = 1 and graph it in the (x,y) coordinate plane. This is a circle, and one can rotate along it any which way one likes--if you're at any particular place on the circle, you can get to any other place on it just by going along it. Now, in the (t,x) coordinate plane of special relativity, graph t² - x² = 1 instead, which will be a hyperbola with two asymptotes x = ±t. Note that you can't rotate just anywhere along the hyperbola--specifically, if you're at some particular place along it, you can't get to the asymptotes (here, representing lightspeed) or the other branch of the hyperbola (i.e., reverse your sense of time).

What he said.
I was going to post somethign saying "You can't freeze time or space-physically impossible." But he kind of said that. sweatdrop
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2007 6:32 pm


I don't understand it; I hope to after formally studying it. (I'm only in second semester of Calculus-based Introductory Physics.)

I don't have a good understanding of time. I thought it was an artificially constructed thing to help us categorize and measure the passage of events.

For this reason, it makes sense that time is constant while everything else can change. I mean, hell, if we invented it, why can't we keep it constant?

And then Einstein's like, "No, you're wrong." And I'm like, "... what?" I should check out a book from the library and read up on it. Does anyone know of something good that explains it without all the technical math (don't have time for that ATM)? Or does his evidence for it lie exclusively within the math?

Aetherius Lamia


nonameladyofsins

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:33 am


Aetherius Lamia
I don't understand it; I hope to after formally studying it. (I'm only in second semester of Calculus-based Introductory Physics.)

I don't have a good understanding of time. I thought it was an artificially constructed thing to help us categorize and measure the passage of events.

For this reason, it makes sense that time is constant while everything else can change. I mean, hell, if we invented it, why can't we keep it constant?

And then Einstein's like, "No, you're wrong." And I'm like, "... what?" I should check out a book from the library and read up on it. Does anyone know of something good that explains it without all the technical math (don't have time for that ATM)? Or does his evidence for it lie exclusively within the math?


Well the reason Einstein found that time and space were correlated can be explained in several experiments. For example, if you take two clocks and synchronize them so that they show the exact same time, then you take one clock on a very high mountaintop and the other clock remains at the surface of the earth, after a certain amount of time you return from the mountain top and compare the time on both clocks. What you will find is that the time on the clock you brought back is lagging behind, so that time ticked slower when you were higher up.

The reason for that is, that since you were higher up, you were circling the earth at a faster radial speed (radial just means in a circle) than the person who was standing on the surface of the earth. Thus showing that time moves slower if you travel faster with the clock. Now, the difference at those speeds is miniscule, but if you crank your speed close to the speed of light, or even like 10% of it (that's very fast!) you will observe considerable time effects.

Now I believe that Einstein started with a thought experiment, but this was experimentally verified later and if you like more the practical things (like me) you will appreciate experimental examples that help you understand concepts.

In Special Relativity, Einstein first postulated that all inertial reference frames were the same. What that means is that for all observers moving at a constant speed can be considered reference frames at rest. You observe this everyday when you take a ride in a car, plane, or bus (bus is kind of turbulent) but you realize that you can walk around a bus as if the bus was standing still. From then on, he showed mathematically that through several equations (which VorpalNeko has taken care to introduce in a thread on the introduction of Special Relativity) we can show the inter-relation of space and time. Thus that your relative velocity has inpact on your relative time, at which point since those are so co-dependent he concluded that it must be 'spacetime' we live in and that time is infact not a separate entity.
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:27 am


poweroutage
The reason for that is, that since you were higher up, you were circling the earth at a faster radial speed (radial just means in a circle) than the person who was standing on the surface of the earth.
Don't you mean faster linear speed? They would have the same angular velocity, the same frequency revolving about their center of mass. (Mountain tops don't slope forward relative to their bases.)

Yes, I have heard of that experiment, as well as the observation where the sun bends the space through which the light from distance stars travels, and I've also heard of a variation of that experiment where they put a clock on an astronaut. I don't understand why they obtained those results, though.

poweroutage
In Special Relativity, Einstein first postulated that all inertial reference frames were the same.
Yes, and also that if you are standing in an isolated box and drop a stone and find its acceleration to be 9.8 m/s^2, you cannot tell if it is Earth's gravitational force or something pulling the box upward with that acceleration, and so forth.

poweroutage
From then on, he showed mathematically that through several equations (which VorpalNeko has taken care to introduce in a thread on the introduction of Special Relativity) we can show the inter-relation of space and time. Thus that your relative velocity has inpact on your relative time, at which point since those are so co-dependent he concluded that it must be 'spacetime' we live in and that time is infact not a separate entity.
So it does lie in the math, then. :/

Aetherius Lamia


nonameladyofsins

PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:31 am


Aetherius Lamia
poweroutage
The reason for that is, that since you were higher up, you were circling the earth at a faster radial speed (radial just means in a circle) than the person who was standing on the surface of the earth.
Don't you mean faster linear speed? They would have the same angular velocity, the same frequency revolving about their center of mass. (Mountain tops don't slope forward relative to their bases.)


good point.

Aetherius Lamia

Yes, I have heard of that experiment, as well as the observation where the sun bends the space through which the light from distance stars travels, and I've also heard of a variation of that experiment where they put a clock on an astronaut. I don't understand why they obtained those results, though.

the latter two experiments have more to do with GR than SR. in GR einstein showed that a non-intertial reference frame is the same as an inertial reference frame under the influence of gravity, which is how he was able to show that since non-inertial motion meant a warping of space time, so gravity also meant a warping of space time. The reason why the beam of light bends when it's passing the sun is because the sun has warped the space in its vicinity, and since things take the route of least energy, passing in a straight line on a curved surface (or in a curved line) is the path of least energy which is the one that the light takes.

Aetherius Lamia

poweroutage
From then on, he showed mathematically that through several equations (which VorpalNeko has taken care to introduce in a thread on the introduction of Special Relativity) we can show the inter-relation of space and time. Thus that your relative velocity has inpact on your relative time, at which point since those are so co-dependent he concluded that it must be 'spacetime' we live in and that time is infact not a separate entity.
So it does lie in the math, then. :/


well the conceptual and the mathematical are intertwined in all of physics, you can't have one without the other. It's not that it lies in the math, it's that math is used to explain it. Keep in mind this equation:

Δs^2 = Δx^2 + Δy^2 + Δz^2 - Δt^2

Where s is the spacetime interval, x,y,z are the spatial components in three dimension and t is the temportal component.

It's very much like a vector's length where if you follow pythagorea's theorem the square of the length of a vector in any direction in R^n space is the sum of the square of its components, except that in this one we also have time as one of the components. I'm not at home now.... I don't know when I will be, maybe late at night or sunday... probably. But I was looking through my special relativity textbook, it's a first year course so it's not so bad, I can give you more information if you wish.

A way you can think about the rate of time changing as the speed changes is, if you accept that the speed of light is the absolute cap on speed and also if the speed of light is the same in all intertial reference frames then time would HAVE TO slow down if these two postulates were to hold. For example, remember that dream einstein had when he travelled 'at' the speed of light, but instead of seeing a photon freeze all he saw was that beam of light travelling in his inertial reference frame at the speed of light as well? That's the idea though, because as you speed up, the speed of light must remain the same within your inertial reference frame which means that if velocity is not additive then your own temporal framework must be working slower to compensate for the fact that you can never catch up with a light beam. Tell me if this makes sense to you.
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:29 pm


How can light have mass? Photons are traveling at the speed of light and so should be pure engery, and if E=Mc2 is right then the speed of light changes or photons have no mass, and 0*anything=0 and if light has engery then that cant be true? please explain that to me?

Just_A_Hardcore_Kid


nonameladyofsins

PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:47 pm


blondgenius
How can light have mass? Photons are traveling at the speed of light and so should be pure engery, and if E=Mc2 is right then the speed of light changes or photons have no mass, and 0*anything=0 and if light has engery then that cant be true? please explain that to me?


That is the energy for an object at rest, the whole equation is
E^2 = m^2c^4 + p^2c^2
where p is the momentum of the object. If the object isn't moving than p=0 and the equation is indeed reduced to E^2 =m^2c^4 or if you take the squre root of both sides this expression is equivalent to E=mc^2.

Since the mass of the photon is zero, all it's energy comes from its momentum than the energy of a photon is E^2=p^2c^2 or E=pc and since the photon goes at the speed of light then we can convert it's energy units by dividing both sides by c to obtain E=p or as is more familiar E=hf. where h is the plank constant and f is the frequency of the photon.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:56 am


And they shoot particles in those big magnetic tuuuubess...
to smash into eachother to create the quarks that aren't normally found.


That is, created mass, larger than the original.

But quickly lost.

AirisMagik


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:17 am


AirisMagik
And they shoot particles in those big magnetic tuuuubess...
to smash into eachother to create the quarks that aren't normally found.


That is, created mass, larger than the original.

But quickly lost.

You are being a little disingenuous. While is is true that you can create a particle with a higher mass than the incoming particles in the accelerator [LEP-II is a prime example because it was tuned to the Z resonance (9118.7 MeV) and was an electron-positron (0.511 MeV each) collider] you need the incoming energy to be high enough to create a particle of a particular mass. The particles are so energetic we can often neglect the mass when it comes to calculations: the Tevatron has beam energies of 980 GeV, the 0.938 GeV mass of the proton is tiny in comparison.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 3:19 pm


Erm... I think I understand the majority of what's been said thus far. The not being able to catch up to a beam of light at the speed of light is a bit elusive; I'd have to reread that a few times.

I think I'll just read chapter 37 -- Relativity -- of my textbook for more info -- no sense in my asking anyone here to explain it further, especially with the incapability of typing sensible equations -- "c^2p^4", urgh -- when I have a textbook that already has info. on it, with diagrams and pretty colors... sweatdrop

Thanks for your time; you've certainly piqued my interest. heart rolleyes

Aetherius Lamia


Cynthia_Rosenweiss

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 12:01 am


Well, he's been proven right on a least one thing (Link).
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2007 7:48 pm


Aetherius Lamia
Erm... I think I understand the majority of what's been said thus far. The not being able to catch up to a beam of light at the speed of light is a bit elusive; I'd have to reread that a few times.

I think I'll just read chapter 37 -- Relativity -- of my textbook for more info -- no sense in my asking anyone here to explain it further, especially with the incapability of typing sensible equations -- "c^2p^4", urgh -- when I have a textbook that already has info. on it, with diagrams and pretty colors... sweatdrop

Thanks for your time; you've certainly piqued my interest. heart rolleyes



if you would like to learn more about the spacetime fabric or special relativity and general relativity go to my profile and comment me " TELL ME MORE" and i wil send you a full brief explanation of general and special relativity and it will contain a one sentence summary of everything about each relativity at the start of the writing so you won't get lost.

Einsteinmc2300

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