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 Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:48 am
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Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:03 pm
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Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:53 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:02 pm
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Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:31 pm
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Shin2 ghostpalm A sports martial artist would of course beat a traditional martial artist in the ring because the sports martial artist would be trained specificly to earn points through techniques. A sports martial art such as contemporary wushu is all about nailing down your nandu or..."difficulty moves" which can be 540 twists, aerials, lotus kicks, etc. A traditional martial artist would not be trained to earn points, but to train to fight. It really depends on the competitors or the competition/tournament held True
It always depends on the people we use as examples, I definitely agree. Trained to fight for real. |
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Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:35 pm
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TaeKyon As always, it depends on the fighter and circumstance. Generally speaking, the so called real street fight between a sport based martial artist and a traditional martial artist still favors the sport based martial artists. Regardless of TMA's supposed deadly techniques (which they don't spend time practicing and thus have no real gauge of their actual effectiveness or their ability to actually effectively use such techniques in a real situation)
You can never gauge your true ability until you are in a real fight. Where your life is threatened, because you will never know how you would react.
Quote: You have to realize that these supposed deadly/dirty techniques aren't unique to the TMA and can't assume that the sport based fighter won't have equal opportunity to utilize the same techniques.
These sport based martial artists are trained to attack points and not techniques to use in real life, such as knife attacks, how to take the knife safely, or how to lay down a drunk man in the street without hurting him.
Quote: Honestly, google this up, this debate has been fought a million times and for the most part it still comes to the same conclusion and...
It has never come to a conclusion, if there were a conclusion of some significance then the martial-world would have heard of it. Perhaps you are thinking of many individual cases. If it has been fought millions of times this is because there are equal arguments to counter others, like in most things.
But, like most fights, these traditional fighters are taught about the consequences and what is acceptable as self-defence in different instances (robbery, rape, etc). These martial sport fighters are not taught this and lack the self control. Many great fighters have been known to go as far as to head butt the referee in a fight because of a fowl; however the student in a TMA has such respect for their teacher they wouldn't dare! While a referee and a sensei are different the idea of them being in control is the same.
What I am surprised and slightly disappointed that you had not thought to mention is the use of swords in many TMAs. I thought this to be a very valid and influential point about this discussion... In TMAs such as Iaido the use of weapons, mainly the sword is the main focus of their training. I believe it is highly unlikely that in a fight you would happen to have a sword on you, but it is likely that you sould be able to find a branch to use in place of a jo or bo staff.
Quote: ...the same sad TMAs who continue to argue and stay in denial.
The SAD martial artist who stays in denial is you, this argument can never be proven or disproved in favour of one or the other, which is undeniable. It is only upon personal experiences which give you your opinions such as how you study a sport style of TKD. I study a Traditional, however it is within my ability to see from another point of view and not argue from one perspective with one idea, which you continually do, I am able to see faults within my own Traditional Martial Arts. |
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Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:04 pm
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Mangafairy You can never gauge your true ability until you are in a real fight. Where your life is threatened, because you will never know how you would react.
And that's why Sport fighters are better off, because they do something that is close enough to real fighting. TMA's don't do anything in that regard. No alive training, no good sparring, no competition. NOTHING.
Mangafairy These sport based martial artists are trained to attack points and not techniques to use in real life, such as knife attacks, how to take the knife safely, or how to lay down a drunk man in the street without hurting him.
Hurting is an essintial part of MA, we've already discussed this. But anyway, things like knife disarms (in fact any disarms) are retarded. This is due to the non-alive training. If you don't have the speed, the strength, AND of course technique, no move/disarm/anything will work. TMA's are almost all guarenteed to have non-alive training because *gasp* IT'S NOT TRADITIONAL TO HAVE ALIVE TRAINING!
Mangafairy It has never come to a conclusion, if there were a conclusion of some significance then the martial-world would have heard of it. Perhaps you are thinking of many individual cases. If it has been fought millions of times this is because there are equal arguments to counter others, like in most things.
Taekyon meant it's come to a conclusion to ACTUAL MARTIAL ARTISTS. Oh lawl burn oh no i didn't rawfle.
Mangafairy But, like most fights, these traditional fighters are taught about the consequences and what is acceptable as self-defence in different instances (robbery, rape, etc). These martial sport fighters are not taught this and lack the self control. Many great fighters have been known to go as far as to head butt the referee in a fight because of a fowl; however the student in a TMA has such respect for their teacher they wouldn't dare! While a referee and a sensei are different the idea of them being in control is the same.
Quit flipfloping. And that statement about them not being taught and lacking self control is bullshit until proven by you who made the claim.
Mangafairy What I am surprised and slightly disappointed that you had not thought to mention is the use of swords in many TMAs. I thought this to be a very valid and influential point about this discussion... In TMAs such as Iaido the use of weapons, mainly the sword is the main focus of their training. I believe it is highly unlikely that in a fight you would happen to have a sword on you, but it is likely that you sould be able to find a branch to use in place of a jo or bo staff.
Oh yes, in the city, in an alley, on pavement.
Mangafairy The SAD martial artist who stays in denial is you, this argument can never be proven or disproved in favour of one or the other, which is undeniable. It is only upon personal experiences which give you your opinions such as how you study a sport style of TKD. I study a Traditional, however it is within my ability to see from another point of view and not argue from one perspective with one idea, which you continually do, I am able to see faults within my own Traditional Martial Arts.
Bullshit it can't. Look at UFC, Pride, K-1 ect. And then look at how many TMA's are actually successful in them. Oh that's right, they don't favor the TMA's because of the rules. Because we know that the condtitioned, tested, and alive trained Martial Artist can't use the same tactics as a TMA with more success. |
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Posted: Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:37 pm
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MangaFairy You can never gauge your true ability until you are in a real fight. Where your life is threatened, because you will never know how you would react.
Which is exactly why in general TMA's fair worse in a real situation than full contact sports based MAs because alive training (sparring against a resisting opponent) is a better estimate of a real fight than the usual static training methods of TMAs.
MangaFairy These sport based martial artists are trained to attack points and not techniques to use in real life, such as knife attacks, how to take the knife safely, or how to lay down a drunk man in the street without hurting him.
You're still assuming that sports based fighters (in this context) are tag point sparrers (which they aren't because that's not full contact, thus why wushu is not an accurate example of "sport based martial artist"). Yes, sports based fighters are trying to score points in a match to win but you seem to ignore the fact that in order to score in most full contact sports hurting the opponent is required and that includes knocking out your opponent if possible. A good share of MMA matches end w/ either submissions or knockouts. You talk about how TMAs teach you how to lay down a drunk man in the street w/out hurting them and yet how many times have you "laid" out anyone with your TMAs inside your dojo? How can you assume that you're capable of such actions in a real situation realistically when you've never been tested against a resisting opponent. At least w/ sports based martial arts, you can test if you have the ability to incapacitate someone who's actually resisting you.
It's like taking two people who don't know how to swim...You teach one person propper form but keep him on dry land the entire time and you teach the other one no form but just throw him into the water. Then you take both and drop em off into the ocean and see which one would sink or swim...Honestly, I'd take my chances on the person who has actually been in the water over the guy who thinks he has.
MangaFairy It has never come to a conclusion, if there were a conclusion of some significance then the martial-world would have heard of it. Perhaps you are thinking of many individual cases. If it has been fought millions of times this is because there are equal arguments to counter others, like in most things.
It's called the evolution of Mixed Martial Arts. Yeah yeah, it's still a "sport" however in the early days it was the closest thing legally to a no holds barred fight (and there are also other MMA organizations w/ even less restrictions around).
MangaFairy But, like most fights, these traditional fighters are taught about the consequences and what is acceptable as self-defence in different instances (robbery, rape, etc). These martial sport fighters are not taught this and lack the self control. Many great fighters have been known to go as far as to head butt the referee in a fight because of a fowl; however the student in a TMA has such respect for their teacher they wouldn't dare! While a referee and a sensei are different the idea of them being in control is the same.
Honestly, no they're not. TMAs are vaguely made aware of the legal rammifications but most martial artists rarely understand the full depth of consequences and still believe in some simple fantasy where they have some false belief that learning joint locks when someone grabs your wrist in a dojo will translate in a street fight (and who can blame instructors? they aren't lawyers in their offtime and they are running a business so of course they're going to perpetuate the illusion of learning effective self defence-though this is often more dangerous to their students then they realize). To claim that TMAs are somehow superior in moral honor and discipline is a wild and gross assumption. The attitude and behavior of a fighter is dependent on the person, there are equally as many bullys and idiots who learn martial arts (any, including TMAs) for the purpose of learning how to beat people up and just because you learn a TMA does not automatically make you more level headed then the next guy. Just to prove a point, I'll quote TMA and this guild's member Wolf Nightshade to illustrate:
Wolf Nightshade I do believe in duels I have challenged people before for insulting me or for disrespecting me. It angers me a lot and I feel somethings are not fixed in other ways.
Oh, but a TMA would never result to violence unless it were the last choice, and all TMA know to simply ignore challenges and threats and not contribute to the escalation of violence. They all have such respect for their senseis and self control not to let simple verbal insults provoke them into unnecessary aggression and know that there are multiple ways of avoiding a verbal challenge such as ignoring it or talking it out that would defuse the situation w/out fighting. Of course when they do fight, they all use their martial arts for self defence only (note: legally speaking in this situation, fighting someone because they insulted you does not equate as self defence and won't hold up in court). [sarcasm]
Think I made that up? think I took it out of context? Read it yourself here: Spirituality thread, third post
MangaFairy What I am surprised and slightly disappointed that you had not thought to mention is the use of swords in many TMAs. I thought this to be a very valid and influential point about this discussion... In TMAs such as Iaido the use of weapons, mainly the sword is the main focus of their training. I believe it is highly unlikely that in a fight you would happen to have a sword on you, but it is likely that you sould be able to find a branch to use in place of a jo or bo staff.
Weapons might favor whoever is in posession of a weapon. Yes it is highly unlikely that a TMA would carry a weapon on them and while it is likely that weapons will be involved in a street fight, I don't see too much of a reason to over anlayze the situation as it could be just as easy for the sports based fighter to grab a weapon and do just as much damage w/ less skill. It doesn't take much to take a hammer or a baseball bat to someone's leg, or to take a knife and stab someone and cause major damage. Moreover, I'd argue that weapon based TMAs succumb to the same flaw that TMAs do, a lack of alive training (how many people twirling nunchucks take into considering the unpredictability of the weapon's recoil when doing their static forms while hitting air?). Taking your example of Iado, I'd still bet my money on the Kendo (the sports based version of japanese swordsmenship) because at least the kendo student has some experience w/ repelling the attack of a real charging opponent (and again, proves my argument).
MangaFairy The SAD martial artist who stays in denial is you, this argument can never be proven or disproved in favour of one or the other, which is undeniable. It is only upon personal experiences which give you your opinions such as how you study a sport style of TKD. I study a Traditional, however it is within my ability to see from another point of view and not argue from one perspective with one idea, which you continually do, I am able to see faults within my own Traditional Martial Arts.
I've refuted your arguments w/ logical reasonable arguments of my own, this isn't because I do sports TKD, I actually got my start in a more "traditional" form of TKD and haven't actually started competing until recently. (nor do I believe I could take my sports TKD to the "street," I honestly don't believe any martial art is effective on the "street", some are just better at preparing you but none will necessarily make you a "street fighter") This debate can never be fully proved one way or another because there will always be exceptions concerning the fighters/circumstances (thus why I prefaced this whole argument w/ that clause to begin with), but generally speaking, this argument has been settled by the onset of MMA as nearly as possible within the confines of legal laws. Seeing their "knifehands" fail, it's the TMAs that started making excuses ("oh but in a real fight, you could do deadly techniques not allowed in a mma fight" as if they're only privy to dirty fighting and as if they have a practical way of practicising them w/out alive training).
I'm not above conceding a good well thought out argument, you just have to make one first before I do.
@Shuma: Lol, just beat me to the punch, your post could literally be a cliffnote version of my post. Nice |
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Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 4:55 am
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MangaFairy Wrote:
What I am surprised and slightly disappointed that you had not thought to mention is the use of swords in many TMAs. I thought this to be a very valid and influential point about this discussion... In TMAs such as Iaido the use of weapons, mainly the sword is the main focus of their training. I believe it is highly unlikely that in a fight you would happen to have a sword on you, but it is likely that you sould be able to find a branch to use in place of a jo or bo staff.
TaeKyon Wrote:
Quote: Weapons might favor whoever is in posession of a weapon.
A weapon cannot favour anything it is the wielder who is to blame for its actions.
Quote: ... Moreover, I'd argue that weapon based TMAs succumb to the same flaw that TMAs do, a lack of alive training (how many people twirling nunchucks take into considering the unpredictability of the weapon's recoil when doing their static forms while hitting air?). Taking your example of Iado, I'd still bet my money on the Kendo (the sports based version of japanese swordsmenship) because at least the kendo student has some experience w/ repelling the attack of a real charging opponent (and again, proves my argument).
Of course it does, because I am putting in different views. I am putting a For and Against discussion because I had written:
Quote: I believe it is highly unlikely that in a fight you would happen to have a sword on you, but it is likely that you should be able to find a branch to use in place of a jo or bo staff.
I was showing that the martial arts that only study sword work are at a loss, although they learn how to take a sword, which can be translated to a punch (in a lunge). And you contradicted yourself a bit; you said you would not find a stick in a city, town or alleyway, but your bet was on the kendo student winning. The kendo student is at a very strong disadvantage, he is trained with a sword all the time, where there is none, he will be in serious trouble. However in a fight between a TMA and a Martial Sport it would be incredibly uneven to pit a Kendo student against an T. Aikido student in the ring, assuming that you don’t allow weapons in the ring, but if you did then the Aikido student could just bring a knife! So it depends, when you argued the the TMA only knew static attacks, this is absoloute rubbish. TMA do learn kata, but it is not all they do, we only do kata for the last few mins of the session. We do a lot of sparring and randori, which is very relevant to real life, it is when you are attacked by many people, which is often in real life. So, most clubs do not JUST study kata, as they realise the limited effectiveness of it.
Quote: I've refuted your arguments w/ logical reasonable arguments of my own...
I am not disputing that, I enjoy learning other people’s views. However I do believe more in a discussion where DIFFERENT views are exchanged, not the same ones argued over repeatedly.
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Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 4:59 am
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Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:25 am
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Mangafairy ----------------------Shuma-Gorath--------------------- What you keep refering to as Martial Arts is wrong, completely, martial arts is the self-defence way. While all these fights you keep mentioning are not martial art fights but martial sport fights. Consider looking up the difference, before gobbing off.
You need to look up the term Martial Art. A martial art is just an organised way of hurting people. Weather it's for sport, defense, offense, commiting crimes, solving crimes, or whatever, if it involves organised violence, then it's a martial art.
As for the topic at hand, it depends on the martial art being used. My belief is that traditional martial arts will beat their sport counterparts in most cases. This is simply because many moves, guards and stances are slimmed down for sport competition to better serve the combatant in the fight at hand, and not all situations that the traditional martial artist must take into account.
An example of this is fencing. Many things in sport fencing are stripped down to better fit the situation of fighting on a strip in an organised and civilised manner. This includes, among other things, half-finished parries that end when the judge registers the clink of the foil, which then gives you the right of way to counterattack. Even if your opponent finishes the attack and lands a touch, in the judges eyes the attack ends when the blades touch.
However, this wouldn't fly in the real world. For the sake of tradition, I've always made a point to protect myself fully with my parries, and follow through with my touches instead of simply delivering a flick. While there hasn't really been a use for a rapier or smallsword since the creation of a reliable firearm, the form or a fencer can still be applied to modern knife fighting or even hand to hand fighting, as long as you mix it with other martial arts better suited for the situation. |
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Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:37 pm
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Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:42 pm
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MangaFairy A weapon cannot favour anything it is the wielder who is to blame for its actions.
What? Whoever has a weapon has an advantage. Where was I talking about blame in what you quoted? Please rethink this argument.
MangaFairy I was showing that the martial arts that only study sword work are at a loss, although they learn how to take a sword, which can be translated to a punch (in a lunge).
No, you were not arguing that an iado fighter could translate his swordsmanship into a punch but rather that if they found a weapon they could translate their swordmanship w/ a object of similar properties and shape.
MangaFairy I believe it is highly unlikely that in a fight you would happen to have a sword on you, but it is likely that you sould be able to find a branch to use in place of a jo or bo staff.
Furthermore...
MangaFairy And you contradicted yourself a bit; you said you would not find a stick in a city, town or alleyway, but your bet was on the kendo student winning. The kendo student is at a very strong disadvantage, he is trained with a sword all the time, where there is none, he will be in serious trouble. However in a fight between a TMA and a Martial Sport it would be incredibly uneven to pit a Kendo student against an T. Aikido student in the ring, assuming that you don’t allow weapons in the ring, but if you did then the Aikido student could just bring a knife!
I did no such thing, no where did I say that you would "not find a stick in a city, town or alleyway" but rather the opposite.
Taekyon Yes it is highly unlikely that a TMA would carry a weapon on them and while it is likely that weapons will be involved in a street fight, I don't see too much of a reason to over anlayze the situation as it could be just as easy for the sports based fighter to grab a weapon and do just as much damage w/ less skill.
If anything, I admit that a TMA is unlikely to bring a weapon w/ them at all times and that weapons are likely a factor in street fights. Please read more carefully next time before you accuse someone of hypocrisy.
And FYI, my proposed Kendo fighter was a counterargument to your Iado fighter, and if placed in an unarmed fight against a TMA Aikido fighter, I'd still probably bet on the kendo fighter because the Kendo fighter has experience w/ handling the pressure of being under attack by a resisting opponent.
MangaFairy when you argued the the TMA only knew static attacks, this is absoloute rubbish. TMA do learn kata, but it is not all they do, we only do kata for the last few mins of the session. We do a lot of sparring and randori, which is very relevant to real life, it is when you are attacked by many people, which is often in real life. So, most clubs do not JUST study kata, as they realise the limited effectiveness of it.
It's true that a good majority of TMAs do have some form of sparring or sparring drills, the problem w/ most of them (another flaw of most TMAs) is that the form of sparring they do is not an effective means of learning to fight. Typically it's because they're light or semi contact. When the sparring is nothing but a high speed tag match, that's when a "fighting like it's a game" mentality is developed. That's when ineffective techniques become developed and reinforced because what works for sparring that way. It's also when the habit of pulling your punches and kicks develops as well.
Moreover, even assuming you do non point, continuous sparring, most TMA sparring do not allow dirty or dangerous techniques that they deem "too deadly" and pride themselves on training specifically for the streets. So these techniques that TMAs are always complaining about not being able to acess in MMA matches, are still not practiced in their sparring either (so they're stuck w/ the same necessary restrictions as fullcontact sports martial arts)...These techniques thus are almost always done statically. Thus TMAs have no way to gauge these supposed deadly techniques they train for the streets. Reiterating, what trained with static training is unlikely to transfer effectively to an alive situation such as on the street.
MangaFairy However I do believe more in a discussion where DIFFERENT views are exchanged, not the same ones argued over repeatedly.
Unforutnatly, I have yet to discover a strong argument for the other view in this discussion. In general, I honestly believe that full contact sports martial arts have a better chance at adapting to a street fight than a TMA. The only exceptions I can foresee (and there are always going to be exceptions, never have I claimed my hypothesis as a certainty) depends on the ability of fighters themselves (which I've already mentioned briefly), the situation of the fight (also mentioned briefly), and exceptions to the training methods of the school of TMA. There are likely TMAs and TMA schools that DO train full contact sparring and likely DO train w/ alive techniques, but in terms of this discussion, generally (and in truth, most schools are this way) TMAs do not train full contact or train staticly and those that do are a minority.
Hylonomus As for the topic at hand, it depends on the martial art being used. My belief is that traditional martial arts will beat their sport counterparts in most cases. This is simply because many moves, guards and stances are slimmed down for sport competition to better serve the combatant in the fight at hand, and not all situations that the traditional martial artist must take into account.
Indeed, certain martial arts are changed or adapted to accomodate the sport aspect as you have demonstrated w/ the sport of fencing. However, you ignore the fact that most TMAs have also been watered down and adapted to accomodate a safer and family friendly aspect. Most TMAists truly believe they're learning ancient training methods and fighting styles used by eastern dynastic or fuedal warriors when in reality, they aren't. Fencing has been around since the 16th century, but obviously the form of fencing you are learning has it's share of changes and differences from what was originally practiced to make it a safer form of fencing. TMAists seem to somehow believe they're immune to this logic (which is perpetuated by instructors trying to run a business by instilling in students a false sense of effectiveness in their training so that they can appeal to mothers and students that they're teaching real self defense). |
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Posted: Mon Jan 01, 2007 5:54 pm
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Reply
