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 Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 3:52 pm
I thought I'd start a thread, because I'm overjoyed to be here, and to (hopefully) spark some discussion.
One of the main (though petty, in my opinion) arguments about the ways Pro-Lifers debate is the use of the terms "baby" and "child" to refer to the unborn human. Many Pro-Choicers believe that the medical term "fetus" should be used to refer to the unborn human, as "baby" and "child" are supposedly used in order to gain specific emotional reactions. Many Pro-Lifers state that the term "fetus" also has a negative emotional response (which is why I now use the emotionally neutral phrase "unborn human(s)" since I have no desire to debate using emotionally charged terms).
Logistically, "fetus" is the medical term for the stage humans are in when in danger of abortion, "baby" is a non-medical term which refers to humans before the age of two (and so could be used to refer to an unborn human, depending on the personal preference of the person using the term), "child" is a medical term which refers to humans between the ages of two and twelves as well as a non-medical term which means "offspring" (by this second definition, it could be used to refer to unborn humans, if one considers unborn humans to be "offspring" which is open to interpretation).
The question is, what term(s) do you use, and do you intend for people to get a specific emotional reaction?
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 4:10 pm
I use the term 'child' all the time. I think it's kind of pointless to expect people to use complete medical terms when debating, if you expect that then you cannot use the term 'teenager' for example. Medical terms aren't the be all and end all.
Child I use because it's still correct. You don't have to be a certain age to be a child, I'm my mother's child but I'm 18 and my mother is my grandmother's child even though she's 40... something (don't tell her that I don't know her age XD).
I never use the word 'baby' because that word in itself is used to describe a certain age. Just like I wouldn't call a 10 year old a baby, I wouldn't call a fetus a baby.
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Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 5:15 pm
Basicly what Jab said. I will use the word child because it is a correct word to use, despite what any other choicer may say about ambiguty. You see, that is just the thing about it. The ambiguisness of it. I feel that is utter...well...you knwo what I'm about to say. If the term is ambiguis, then there shoudl be no problem with using it if you are not trying to be spucific.
The word fetus i only ever use when speaking of age or medicle refrence. The word fetus, as far as I'm concerned, is on par with words such as infant, child, and adult. Medical terms. How ever, if it is just in gerneral, I will always opt to use the word child.
An interestign side note: in the abortion industry, the words zygte, embrypo, and fetus are now labled as emotional charged words that recognize the unborn's living humanity, and so they them selves do not use these words openly. Instead, it's usialy "contents of the uterous" "terminated pregnency" or a host of other bland and confusing phrases....
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:34 am
Tiger of the Fire An interestign side note: in the abortion industry, the words zygte, embrypo, and fetus are now labled as emotional charged words that recognize the unborn's living humanity, and so they them selves do not use these words openly. Instead, it's usialy "contents of the uterous" "terminated pregnency" or a host of other bland and confusing phrases.... "Products of conception" is what I've heard. I'm sure it's so as not to upset any woman who gets an abortion, since that is the main goal of the people who work at an abortion clinic.
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:45 am
Beware the Jabberwock Child I use because it's still correct. You don't have to be a certain age to be a child, I'm my mother's child but I'm 18 and my mother is my grandmother's child even though she's 40... something (don't tell her that I don't know her age XD). I only know my mother's age because she is 30 and 1/2 years older than me. I think that "child" (as in offspring) is still an interpretation, as some people consider unborn humans to already be the offspring of the two people whose genetic material they carry and some people don't consider humans to be offspring until they are born. Online definitions don't say one way or the other, so it really seems to be up to the person using the term. Since there isn't formal discussion of abortion on the internet, it doesn't make too much sense to require proper medical terminology at all times. However, using terms specifically to achieve an emotional response (for example: "No womb-puppies deserve to live off me without my permission" or "How can you kill your baby" -- though usually spelled far worse and with random capitalizations) has always seemed to be not proper debating, as well as annoying and usually used when someone can't properly reply to a comment.
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:28 am
I agree, things that are said specifically in an attempt to invoke an emotional response (whether it be negative or positive). Child to me is just easier than saying fetus (and then being corrected because the time frame is actually zygote or embryo) plus in the definition of child it doesn't say you have to be born.
So even if one person interprets it differently that's doesn't therefore mean that the definition changes to their interpretation. I was my mother's offspring before I was born. I mean I was the exact same thing that I am now, I didn't magically poof into a new being, I just developed further. So to suggest that I'm her offspring now but wasn't when I was in her womb seems kind of silly to me.
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:38 am
Beware the Jabberwock I agree, things that are said specifically in an attempt to invoke an emotional response (whether it be negative or positive). Child to me is just easier than saying fetus (and then being corrected because the time frame is actually zygote or embryo) plus in the definition of child it doesn't say you have to be born.
So even if one person interprets it differently that's doesn't therefore mean that the definition changes to their interpretation. I was my mother's offspring before I was born. I mean I was the exact same thing that I am now, I didn't magically poof into a new being, I just developed further. So to suggest that I'm her offspring now but wasn't when I was in her womb seems kind of silly to me. Since I don't consider someone a parent until they have born children, I don't consider unborn humans to be the offspring of anyone. But I don't really care if someone else does, since the definition doesn't say anything one way or the other. Unborn human is a great phrase, in my opinion, because it is specific to the time frame during which abortion is possible, but is general enough to include all the different stages of development within that time frame. Plus I think it looks intelligent. *wink* It took a while for some really patient people in here (well, in this Guild - this SubForum didn't exist yet) to point out to me how petty it was to try to convince people not to use the terms "child" or "baby" in a general way (that is, in a way that is not intended to evoke positive emotions for the unborn human in order to gain support for one's argument). It is time wasting in the Debate, or in a discussion to do so as well.
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 9:47 am
I agree, although the term 'baby' bothers me to some extent. I mean I don't even call a 3 year old a baby, they're a toddler. That kind of thing, to me it's just incorrect. Like I wouldn't call a fetus a teenager I wouldn't call it a baby.
I use "unborn child" a lot, as opposed to "unborn human." Mainly because then it covers the fact that the child hasn't yet been born. I know a lot of people get offended over the use of human, and it's all just complicated and aggrivating, personally.
If I'm in a really teachnical debate I use "Z/E/F/" for zygote, embryo, fetus. To me what matters most is the context. If someone is yelling "You're killing your child!" then it's obviously meant to invoke emotions (moreso than the debate already does, because both sides rely heavily on emotional conviction). However if you're debating and use the term "child" or "unborn child" or "fetus" or whatever, unless it is obviously meant to piss someone off ("womb-puppies" being an example, as amusing as I found that term) I could care less. It's all the same thing to me.
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Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:41 am
Beware the Jabberwock I agree, although the term 'baby' bothers me to some extent. I mean I don't even call a 3 year old a baby, they're a toddler. That kind of thing, to me it's just incorrect. Like I wouldn't call a fetus a teenager I wouldn't call it a baby.
I use "unborn child" a lot, as opposed to "unborn human." Mainly because then it covers the fact that the child hasn't yet been born. I know a lot of people get offended over the use of human, and it's all just complicated and aggrivating, personally.
If I'm in a really teachnical debate I use "Z/E/F/" for zygote, embryo, fetus. To me what matters most is the context. If someone is yelling "You're killing your child!" then it's obviously meant to invoke emotions (moreso than the debate already does, because both sides rely heavily on emotional conviction). However if you're debating and use the term "child" or "unborn child" or "fetus" or whatever, unless it is obviously meant to piss someone off ("womb-puppies" being an example, as amusing as I found that term) I could care less. It's all the same thing to me. "Unborn child" makes sense. It's both specific and more comfortable for a lot of people. I think I actually saw "womb-puppies" once, but I used it to be amusing and not too offensive. I try to call people out on attempting to use emotional response to gain support for their "side" when they cannot use a logical argument. Though I do feel rather embarrassed that I did once see all use of non-medical terminology as such. redface Being allowed to more closely interact with intelligent Pro-Lifers has really helped me to grow as a debater and a person.
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:52 am
Seth delt with an a** hat like that on another site. The guy out right told him unless he bega calling human embryos as embryos and not children, or offspring, or other "emotionaly charged" terms, he would be banned. This even though tthe word HUMAN was emotional charged. When asked what his reason were for it not being human, all the guy could come up with was a site containign a logic equation contianing personle opinoins on why the unbron are not human. One does nto go from being a non-human to a human.
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:33 am
Tiger of the Fire Seth delt with an a** hat like that on another site. The guy out right told him unless he bega calling human embryos as embryos and not children, or offspring, or other "emotionaly charged" terms, he would be banned. This even though tthe word HUMAN was emotional charged. When asked what his reason were for it not being human, all the guy could come up with was a site containign a logic equation contianing personle opinoins on why the unbron are not human. One does nto go from being a non-human to a human. Wow - some people are just special, but not in a good way... I guess there is some emotional response to the word "human", but there is also some emotional response to the word "cheese". It amazes me that there are people who believe that an unborn human isn't human, or isn't alive (or, on the other end of the spectrum, that there are people who believe that an abortion removes a woman's uterus). There are some very basic facts that everyone should know before attempting to debate this topic...
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 7:42 am
WatersMoon110 Tiger of the Fire Seth delt with an a** hat like that on another site. The guy out right told him unless he bega calling human embryos as embryos and not children, or offspring, or other "emotionaly charged" terms, he would be banned. This even though tthe word HUMAN was emotional charged. When asked what his reason were for it not being human, all the guy could come up with was a site containign a logic equation contianing personle opinoins on why the unbron are not human. One does nto go from being a non-human to a human. Wow - some people are just special, but not in a good way... I guess there is some emotional response to the word "human", but there is also some emotional response to the word "cheese". It amazes me that there are people who believe that an unborn human isn't human, or isn't alive (or, on the other end of the spectrum, that there are people who believe that an abortion removes a woman's uterus). There are some very basic facts that everyone should know before attempting to debate this topic... Even worse guy was a moderator. Then again, trying to debate rationally on a website called evilbible.com wasn't a good plan. In the end I just left, the guy was irrational and site admin, not a good combination.
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:42 am
King Seth WatersMoon110 Tiger of the Fire Seth delt with an a** hat like that on another site. The guy out right told him unless he bega calling human embryos as embryos and not children, or offspring, or other "emotionaly charged" terms, he would be banned. This even though tthe word HUMAN was emotional charged. When asked what his reason were for it not being human, all the guy could come up with was a site containign a logic equation contianing personle opinoins on why the unbron are not human. One does nto go from being a non-human to a human. Wow - some people are just special, but not in a good way... I guess there is some emotional response to the word "human", but there is also some emotional response to the word "cheese". It amazes me that there are people who believe that an unborn human isn't human, or isn't alive (or, on the other end of the spectrum, that there are people who believe that an abortion removes a woman's uterus). There are some very basic facts that everyone should know before attempting to debate this topic... Even worse guy was a moderator. Then again, trying to debate rationally on a website called evilbible.com wasn't a good plan. In the end I just left, the guy was irrational and site admin, not a good combination. I suppose the domain name should have been a clue that intelligent people probably didn't run the site. *shakes head* I wish that we could just outlaw stupid. It would solve almost all of the world's problems... *grin*
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Posted: Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:49 am
The guy was arrogant beyond beleife. Still seth, you could have easly crushe all his arguments, even playin gon his field. But i can't understandwhy you didn't.
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Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 3:20 am
Tiger of the Fire The guy was arrogant beyond beleife. Still seth, you could have easly crushe all his arguments, even playin gon his field. But i can't understandwhy you didn't. No, not in his domain. I posted direct factual evidence and he outright denied it and threatened to ban me if I continued. You can never beat people like that.
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Reply
