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 Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2006 2:07 pm
I was thinking about some things and reading our cute little Buddist Psychic thread just now and I started wondering: How many of us in here are actually Christians? Before you answer and tell me you're just spiritual, or whatnot, let me clarify. I'm not asking if you go to church, though that is certainly helpful (and I'd like to know what your backgrounds are), I'm asking if you're a Christian. If you don't know, I'm going to go ahead and put the Nicene Creed in this post. If you can say yes, you believe that stuff about it, then you qualify. smile Also, while I'm at it, I want to say that the earliest known Christian Creed is "Jesus, God's son, Savoir", so that qualifies as well, at the bare minimum level. I'm starting to think we need to do some more stuff toward that end (the Christianity end) and I want some suggestions. Things you'd like to learn about or talk about and I'll see if i can produce it. Or if someone else can. Anyhoo, here's the Creed. If you don't understand part of it, ask. Quote: 1. We believe in one God the Father, the Almighty, creator of heaven and earth, and of all that is, seen and unseen. 2. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being [substance] with the Father. Through him all things were made. 3. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven; by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made truly human. 4. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. 5. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; 6. he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. 7. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.. 8. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father [and the Son]. With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. 9. We believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. 10. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. 11. We look for the resurrection of the dead, 12. and the life of the world to come. Amen.
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:00 pm
guys, I wasn't kidding, I'd like some feedback/responses here. I'm not thinking of a "guild cleansing" or anything of the sort, I'm just looking for information.
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:30 pm
Wow...no responses?
Despite the fact of this already being known to a handful here, including (definitely) Sis, I'll break the ice, I guess? I'm hoping people just aren't responding because they haven't seen this thread yet?
I'm not a Christian. I'm more of a "None" as one professor put it; an "Anomaly" as another put it. But, I have read a semi-decent portion of the Bible, and I do take things of this nature seriously. I follow Jesus' teachings (or try to, as much as any of us), and believe in that sense that he is a savior. But traditionally speaking, no, I am not a Christian.
Hmm...as far as topic ideas and whatnot go, it'd be nice to have some more experientially related threads, if that makes any sense? I have a natural academic bent, and am curious about peoples takes on soteriology, eschatology, and all that good stuff...but, I really just want to get to know you guys through your own life experiences. I don't know how to put that into a thread idea, though, besides the 'my story' bit.
Also, if anyone knows much about Christian Mysticism, that would be REALLY interesting to me. I know a bit about other religions, but not the Christian tradition.
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:41 pm
Julian of Norwich is one of them, though, I can't say I've read her. I should have, but I haven't. What little I've seen, I liked. Also, The Cloud of Unknowing is a classic read on the subject...
BTW: Katie, which tenets of the Nicene Creed do you object to? (I love you!)
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:49 pm
Oh, thanks for the name! I'll have to look into that! biggrin And, I don't mind saying what issues I have with it; I've never sat down and actually analyzed it before, but here it goes... Quote: 1. No problems here 2. I do not believe Jesus is the ONLY Son of God. I do not believe through Jesus all things were made, though I'm not too sure that is what that one is saying...? 3. I don't know how much I believe in the Virgin Birth at this point. 4. And as weird as this is going to sound, my mum's starting to convince me that maybe he didn't die on the cross. Though, I'd say I agree with this statement about 90% sureity (if that's a word XD) 5. I do not really believe strongly in a physical resurrection, though I don't close myself off to the possibility. I see it more as in spirit. 6. Definitely think he went to Heaven for sure. The other part, not so sure about. 7. I believe the Kingdom of God will have no end. I do not believe he will come again to judge the living and the dead. I don't believe in a "Final Judgement", and I heavily question the idea of a judgment at all. 8. I do not worship the Holy Spirit, nor will I worship Jesus. I worship only God; though I am able to see the Christian perspective of the Trinity enough to understand that Jesus and the Holy Spirit both are, and are not, God. No problem with the Prophet bit. 9. I don't see much of a united Church at this point. If we're going more abstract here, with just the followers, then, yes, I can see that. 10. I have issues with Baptism. I'm ALL for it to initiate a spiritual journey; but I do not see how it is needed for sins to be forgiven. 11. In spirit, sure. 12. No problems here. Hmm, so, narrowing it down...it's mainly the idea that Jesus was more than us (not saying he's not both human and divine, but if I say that, I then think we're all both human and divine; of course, he totally has us all beat as far as how advanced his spirit is). So, I have issues worshipping him, saying he's the only Son of God, etc. I just don't see God as the judging type. And Baptism is just a personal issue; where it stems from, I have no idea. Probably it's kind of like when I was five years old, and people would sing the "Jesus loves me song", I'd get so mad. Why would that happen? o_O I don't know. It's the same way with Baptism.
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:09 pm
Woah... I wouldn't have recognized Sis and Wings if it weren't for the usernames... eek
But I'm a Christian. But I won't answer any of the things you listed... BECAUSE I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY MEAN! xd
And I never answer things I don't understand. Because I've been fooled too many times with that... sweatdrop
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:12 pm
Wait, didn't Pontius Pilate try (if rather pathetically) to stop the people from crucifying Jesus, knowing full well that the only reason they wanted Burabas free is that he was one of "them"? And that it was all politics? So I wouldn't say that it falls solely upon Pontious... It also falls upon the priests of that time, and maybe the Roman officials. So that's one part I understand but don't agree with...
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:23 pm
Oh, and I'm not sure about the "one, holy, catholic, and aposolic church" thing. I don't think any church run by man can be worthy of the Lord... Just looking around at the ones we've got, they're all missing crucial parts!
The Catholics pray to saints, but they have confession... The only problem with Catholic confession is that they "measure" each sin. Like doing twelve "Hail Mary"s for masturbating or something. It isn't like that! You have to put your HEART into worship. Jesus spoke time and time again about worship being about the motive as well as the deed!
Protestants... The whole Protestant church seems kinda blah to me. I mean, I've gone to some really good ones, but there's nobody to confess your sins to... No place you can ask someone to pray for your sins, with the garunteed privacy that the Catholic confession offers. It's confusing.
So confusing... So I think there is one church, but its members are scattered between many denominations. Buried under a mountain of false Christians and bible beaters... sad
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:08 pm
Oh, you mean because our avatars keep changing like a chameleon in front of a TV? xd
Hmm...actually, and PLEASE don't quote me on this...the whole bit with where the blame lies depends on the Gospel you're reading? I think certain of the four Gospels lays more blame on the Jews, while others on Pontius Pilot, and whatnot. Extra-Biblical (mainly simply historical) documents paint Pilot as a horribly cruel man, and that for this reason, some scholars say that some of the tellings paint him as being hesitant to kill Jesus because they didn't want the Romans to come after them? I don't know, the whole thing is very involved, and depends on the version you are getting. Ultimately, though, it was Pilot who actually ordered his death; I assume that's what this was talking about.
You should try reading novels/watching films (especially); it gets REALLY interesting.
Yeah, see? I get a little confused on the Church bit, too. Because a church is essentially the followers, right? But if it's talking about our modern ideas of churches, there's no way.
Oh, and, here's a nifty tid-bit...catholic, when not capitalized, doesn't refer to the Catholic Church with the Pope and whatnot. The world traditionally means "universal". So, if I'm not mistaken, it would be "one, holy, universal, and apostolic church" biggrin
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Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:52 am
Ah. Once again, I learn from my senior guildians. WHY DOES RELIGION HAVE TO BE SO DOG-GONE CONFUSING! xp It's human's fault. They get us all confused on purpose... Only to be more easily stolen by Satan.
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Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:31 am
Dirk Bolero Ah. Once again, I learn from my senior guildians. WHY DOES RELIGION HAVE TO BE SO DOG-GONE CONFUSING! xp It's human's fault. They get us all confused on purpose... Only to be more easily stolen by Satan. I know, right? It's like, after studying religion for two years pretty steadily, I still very readily get confused. o_O Which is why I was saying don't quote me on that stuff. Sis'll have a good idea on it, methinks. heart
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Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:22 am
Dirk Bolero Oh, and I'm not sure about the "one, holy, catholic, and aposolic church" thing. I don't think any church run by man can be worthy of the Lord... Just looking around at the ones we've got, they're all missing crucial parts! The Catholics pray to saints, but they have confession... The only problem with Catholic confession is that they "measure" each sin. Like doing twelve "Hail Mary"s for masturbating or something. It isn't like that! You have to put your HEART into worship. Jesus spoke time and time again about worship being about the motive as well as the deed! Protestants... The whole Protestant church seems kinda blah to me. I mean, I've gone to some really good ones, but there's nobody to confess your sins to... No place you can ask someone to pray for your sins, with the garunteed privacy that the Catholic confession offers. It's confusing. So confusing... So I think there is one church, but its members are scattered between many denominations. Buried under a mountain of false Christians and bible beaters... sad Catholic refers to the Universal Church... which is all of us, Roman Catholics, Episcopalians, etc etc.. holy means "set apart", obviously, and apostalic (this is where it gets sticky for some) means we have an unbroken chain of the laying on of hands in our priests/bishops/deacons etc going all the way back to the twelve apostles. For the record, the Romans (catholics) ask the saints to pray WITH THEM, and there's something to be said for well meant penance. You've also broke my rule about dogging other religions. That includes other bodies of your fellow Christians, and I won't tolerate it. I know you snuck in a dig at your fellow Protestants (you are one if you don't recognize the authority of the Pope) but that doesn't make it okay. Where do you fit on on that spectrum anyway? I think that instead of worrying about "false Christians" we need to look after our own salvation and worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness.
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Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:24 am
Dirk Bolero Ah. Once again, I learn from my senior guildians. WHY DOES RELIGION HAVE TO BE SO DOG-GONE CONFUSING! xp It's human's fault. They get us all confused on purpose... Only to be more easily stolen by Satan. Religion is so confusing because we've only scratched the surface of the truth about God. Show me a simple religion and I'll show you a false one.
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Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:21 pm
sistergoldenhair Dirk Bolero Ah. Once again, I learn from my senior guildians. WHY DOES RELIGION HAVE TO BE SO DOG-GONE CONFUSING! xp It's human's fault. They get us all confused on purpose... Only to be more easily stolen by Satan. Religion is so confusing because we've only scratched the surface of the truth about God. Show me a simple religion and I'll show you a false one. But, but...what about what the Dalai Lama said was his religion? "Love" xp Although, I agree. In a way, part of me wants to say humans complicate things, but, honestly...I don't think it could be any other way. We've only got so little that we've experienced...I don't see how it could not end up complicated.
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Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 12:52 pm
I figured I should throw my two cents in the hat as well. I'm not Christian, but due my exposure to an Augustinian School and being a family that follows Christianity, I think about what questions it brings up. This is what I believe relating to Christianity. This is not my list of dogmas. If I accidentally offend somebody, I apologize. Send me a PM of what bothers you, and I'll amend it. Quote: 1. I can't see it logical (from my perspectives and experience) that there's only ONE higher power. I believe that God is A higher power, and that others exist. As for the creator, I believe in a Source. 2. I also believe that there's been many messiahs all over the world in different faiths for different reasons. 3. I can't honestly say that Jesus was THE guy who was here to save us. Maybe he had a role to play in the cosmic drama, but it doesn't dwarf the roles of other figures like Gilgamesh or Buddha. 4. He suffered, no critiscism here. Getting nailed to a cyprus tree would hurt. A lot. 5. Rising from the dead, I believe, is a loose term. Maybe he came back in spirit to tie up some loose ends. 6. I believe he rose, in spirit. And there's no denying that he's up there with pappas. 7. Why judge the dead? This seems redundant to me. And for the never-ending kingdom, we'll see. 8. He didn't speak through the prophets, he just handed them the script and instructed them how to say it. 9. No problem here. 10. I can't see how baptism on infants forigves sins when they don't even know what a sin is yet 11. Eh...shaky. It'd be nice to see my cousin again, but I wouldn't like the shambling horde of zombies roaming through the streets. 12. No idea what this one means.
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