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Persephone13

PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:26 pm


Since our fearless leader Proudly_Jewish (such a nice meydl^^) created the Harry Potter discussion topic for French, I've opted to create the topic for all English speakers.

I choose not to state my opinion on Harry Potter right now. Rather, I'd first like to hear from a few other people what they think of the Harry Potter world and how Rowling uses language.

However, I gotta ask this. Anyone know where all the Jews are in HP? sweatdrop
PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:11 am


My favourite book is Prisoner of Azkaban. I was extremely mad when they switched directors for the movie and it turned out completely wrong. Because of that, I didn't bother to see the fourth movie and I won't bother to see the rest of them either if they use the same director.

My least favourite book is Half-Blood Prince. It was just too easy to figure out and not as well written as the others were.

I'm actually getting POA in Japanese here real soon. I hope I'll be able to talk about that in Japanese soon too. Seems how we can't talk about manga.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:55 am


Hermonie Urameshi
My favourite book is Prisoner of Azkaban. I was extremely mad when they switched directors for the movie and it turned out completely wrong. Because of that, I didn't bother to see the fourth movie and I won't bother to see the rest of them either if they use the same director.

My least favourite book is Half-Blood Prince. It was just too easy to figure out and not as well written as the others were.

I'm actually getting POA in Japanese here real soon. I hope I'll be able to talk about that in Japanese soon too. Seems how we can't talk about manga.
I don't know if you know this but the director for the 4th one wasn't the same as the one for the 3rd one, though if you didn't like the 3rd one I won't recommend seeing the new one either because it basically picks up on the same style as the 3rd one. To each his own though; I personally prefered the 3rd and 4th ones to the first 2 sweatdrop

I'm a pretty huge Potter freak, I'd say >> I've read all of the books a bunch of times (the first one 15 times...) and in several different languages (though I have yet to read any translation of it that, in my opinion, does full justice to the witty humour and beautiful flowing style of the English version).

I get very offended when people say that it's just some kid's book. The first 2 books are very childish, I admit, but past that it's a litterary classic. The 5th book is my all-time favourite because of .... well everything pretty much, but it was mostly the end of that one that trully blew me away. That part when Harry is screaming and smashing up Dumbledore's office broke my heart... crying

About the Jews in HP... I've wondered that myself >> Actually, in either the 5th or the 6th book, there's a guy from Ravenclaw mentioned named Anton (or Anthony or something?) Goldstein. Nu? surprised
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:27 am


Meh, just having the name Goldstein doesn't really count. I get the sense that if she did that, he might've been the tokin Jew and that's just sad. I do appreciate that Rowling is writing what she knows because that's what a good writer does. I would never say under any circumstance that her writing is bad because even though I don't like the books, if I pick one up I get sucked into it. But there are things about the HP world that I don't really like.

There are a lot of things that are never addressed in the HP books, and I suppose from one aspect it's trivial, pain-in-the-a** type stuff that a kid would never need to worry about because this IS about a kid. But I still wonder about things like the healthcare system, attitudes toward mental health and treatment, general ethics, religion, etc. Much of it is hinted to, but never really mentioned outright. What do you do with schizophrenic or someone who is dissociative? Do they get any drugs or therapy? Lock them up? *shrug* It's something I think about.

I also wonder about how magic is done in non-English-speaking, non-European parts of the HP world. None of that is ever really mentioned, but it comes up in the 4th movie simply because directors and such have that kind of leeway.

Persephone13


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 4:33 pm


Proudly_Jewish
Hermonie Urameshi
My favourite book is Prisoner of Azkaban. I was extremely mad when they switched directors for the movie and it turned out completely wrong. Because of that, I didn't bother to see the fourth movie and I won't bother to see the rest of them either if they use the same director.

My least favourite book is Half-Blood Prince. It was just too easy to figure out and not as well written as the others were.

I'm actually getting POA in Japanese here real soon. I hope I'll be able to talk about that in Japanese soon too. Seems how we can't talk about manga.
I don't know if you know this but the director for the 4th one wasn't the same as the one for the 3rd one, though if you didn't like the 3rd one I won't recommend seeing the new one either because it basically picks up on the same style as the 3rd one. To each his own though; I personally prefered the 3rd and 4th ones to the first 2 sweatdrop


My mom said it was the same one...grrr...I hate it when she does that. I heard it while the rest of my family were watching it. The tv's right next to me too. Heard it, never saw any of it. Although there is one thing I liked, they gave the lake a name. A pretty good name at that. She never mentioned one in the books. My mom also said that she was there when they were filming it. If that's true, then why aren't they very good?! gonk I want to re-write all of the screen-plays and make a series or mini-series (or perhaps a British tv series which is shorter than ours) on all of them. That way there'd be more to it, so that it's more to the story and so the actors age with the characters. mrgreen

As for the Jews...I don't know enough about your religion to really tell you anything. Sorry. But I do like talking and learning about religions. Mine mostly. Sorry, but I do like learning about others too if you can educate me any on yours. Either of y'all. It'd be nice to learn about some religions again. I'm tired of reading about the Norse, Greek, Roman, and Egyptian paganisms so something else would be nice if you like.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:12 pm


Persephone13
Meh, just having the name Goldstein doesn't really count. I get the sense that if she did that, he might've been the tokin Jew and that's just sad. I do appreciate that Rowling is writing what she knows because that's what a good writer does. I would never say under any circumstance that her writing is bad because even though I don't like the books, if I pick one up I get sucked into it. But there are things about the HP world that I don't really like.

There are a lot of things that are never addressed in the HP books, and I suppose from one aspect it's trivial, pain-in-the-a** type stuff that a kid would never need to worry about because this IS about a kid. But I still wonder about things like the healthcare system, attitudes toward mental health and treatment, general ethics, religion, etc. Much of it is hinted to, but never really mentioned outright. What do you do with schizophrenic or someone who is dissociative? Do they get any drugs or therapy? Lock them up? *shrug* It's something I think about.

I also wonder about how magic is done in non-English-speaking, non-European parts of the HP world. None of that is ever really mentioned, but it comes up in the 4th movie simply because directors and such have that kind of leeway.
That's a good point. From what I understand about the magical world though, wizards generally tend to have... better-built bodies than muggles physically. An example of this was when some while back, JKR said that Dumbledore was around 150 years old in the first book (having magic blood allows them to live longer than muggles - McGonagall is around 70-ish). That said, my assumption would be that wizards are simply not born with things like deformed arms or tay sachs (on the Jewish theme again... xd )

I'm not so sure about it from a psychological point of view though. There are definately a good number of people in the series who could benefit from psychological help - Harry for starters (I'm not saying he's a crazy or dangerous person, but everything that he's gone through has definitely unhinged him somewhat). I suppose in some ways, the Pensieve is something of an aid; Dumbledore used it to cast away certain memories when his head felt too cramped. There is also some hinting towards brains from a magic perspective at the end of the 5th book when they're in the Department of Mysteries. Remember when Ron got attacked by that brain? Later on when they're in the hospital wing, it mentions that Madame Pomfrey had said that brains leave heavier scarring than anything else. Maybe like their bodies, the brains of wizards are also superior in some sense? We know for example that wizards are capable of seeing and hearing things that muggles can't, and both of these senses are related to the functioning of the brain.

As for magic around the globe - I think the words recited for spells are universal, seeing as many of them derive from Latin. On the other hand, if you read Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them (which JKR herself wrote in 2001 to raise funds for charity, making it look like it was actually from the HP world), it mentions that many magical creatures are particular to certain regions. The kappa, for example, is most common in Japan. There's also some Hogwarts foods mentioned in the books that I later found out have never been heard of in England, so I assume they're magic dishes that JKR invented. My guess is that wizard food varies from region to region just like muggle food (although of course this is just speculation, I have no evidence to support this idea >>).

Proudly_Jewish
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Proudly_Jewish
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:19 pm


Now that I think about it... wouldn't religion conflict with living a magical lifestyle? Maybe it's impossible to religious and a wizard at the same time? (though there could still be racial Jews at Hogwarts...)
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 7:40 pm


Maybe with Judaism. I'm not sure. Not with Catholicism, if it is a certain type of magic. Nowadays there are three types of magic. Invocational, incataional, and new age. (I think those are the names. New age is things like in anime.) One is summoning spirits/ghosts. Like using black magic. It's forbidden by the Church. (I'm Catholic so I capitalize Church when referring to mine.) Another is like in Harry Potter where it's genetic. The Church allows it because some people are just born with it. But if they start doing things like using black magic and/or leaving the Faith, then they're in trouble. The last one, new age, is like in, say, Yuu Yuu Hakusho or...I can't think of another one right now, but that's what I'm talking about.... sweatdrop The Church hasn't decided on it yet. As for which one is invocational and which ones incantaional, I'll ask my brother. Or we could all just read Looking For God in Harry Potter. blaugh Or I could do it and tell y'all.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:02 pm


I think there could be a number of problems if you tried to mix Judaism and magic. The whole idea in Judaism (this exists in Christianity too but it is much more strict in Judaism) is that there is but one single G-d who knows, sees, and creates everything. For religious Jewish people, something as simple as idolizing a rock star is considered wrong and offensive because Jews are not supposed to idolize anybody or anything but G-d. I'm not sure but I have a feeling that getting people to create things out of thin air might offend some Orthodox Jews if it were really possible because, well... there's something in Judaism called the 13 principles of faith, of which the first is like this:

Quote:
I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, is the Creator and Guide of everything that has been created; He alone has made, does make, and will make all things.


Some Jews might think that people having magical powers and being able to create anything would take away from this princple. *shrugs*
PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 8:12 pm


Well, usually those who have magic or supernatural powers by genetics can't create anything...I mention supernatural because my family from my dad's side have some powers. But we can't control them, nor do we really want to because they're nothing that can really hurt anyone or anything...

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:10 am


Proudly_Jewish
I think there could be a number of problems if you tried to mix Judaism and magic. The whole idea in Judaism (this exists in Christianity too but it is much more strict in Judaism) is that there is but one single G-d who knows, sees, and creates everything. For religious Jewish people, something as simple as idolizing a rock star is considered wrong and offensive because Jews are not supposed to idolize anybody or anything but G-d. I'm not sure but I have a feeling that getting people to create things out of thin air might offend some Orthodox Jews if it were really possible because, well... there's something in Judaism called the 13 principles of faith, of which the first is like this:

Quote:
I believe with perfect faith that the Creator, blessed be His Name, is the Creator and Guide of everything that has been created; He alone has made, does make, and will make all things.


That is kind of harsh though. The Catholic Church encourages you to look to the saints as role models. Like our family patron saint is St. Christopher because we travel so much. When a Catholic is going on some kind of trip they pray to St. Chirstopher and ask him to pray to God for safety on the trip. We usually have two medals hanging in the car. St. Christopher for travellers and St. Michael the Archangel, patron of the armed forces, police, and firefighters. St. Michael also happens to be my patron saint, too. 3nodding There are also many others that pray to God for people in the situations they are patrons of.
PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:40 am


Hermonie Urameshi
That is kind of harsh though. The Catholic Church encourages you to look to the saints as role models. Like our family patron saint is St. Christopher because we travel so much. When a Catholic is going on some kind of trip they pray to St. Chirstopher and ask him to pray to God for safety on the trip. We usually have two medals hanging in the car. St. Christopher for travellers and St. Michael the Archangel, patron of the armed forces, police, and firefighters. St. Michael also happens to be my patron saint, too. 3nodding There are also many others that pray to God for people in the situations they are patrons of.
That's totally opposite of Judaism surprised Even when Moses was buried, I heard that they tried to hide his grave and make it modest or something, so that people wouldn't worship him... eek

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:47 am


eek Wow. I don' think I'd do well if I ever converted. (Not thinking of it anytime soon though...I like my religion.)
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:11 am


Back from my trip.

I guess I'm not really making myself clear on some of the points that bother me. What I mean about Jews is really just an example of other religions that exist somewhere in the books, or other cultures. I understand and appreciate that England is a fairly homogeneous place, but it's still something that bothers me. If Orthodox Jews want to get offended by that sort of thing, fine. In fact, the books probably offend them right now already. There ARE other sects of Judaism out there who are totally fine with magic and what not. It really wouldn't be all that different from some of the Christian groups which have been demonizing the books. But where are the Sufis? The Hindus? It wouldn't necessarily be about having a religious Jew. For example, a Jew wouldn't necessarily say that they were ever possessed by a demon that made them do things. Again, I'm Jewish and I'm not very religious. However, having someone who subscribed to something that is not mainstream will give a different perspective to certain things. Jews do things differently from Sufis who do things differently Catholics who do things differently from Anglicans. I'm just wondering about what happened to all the minorities. If you're black, does that mean you don't have magic and never will? Yes, yes. People always say, "Well, there are black people in the movies" but that's mainly because the director could afford to insert token extras.

On the case of mental health, dissociation is very different from schizophrenia. What bothers me is that while Harry is unhinged, he's actually not unhinged enough for someone who has suffered in the way that he has suffered. A boy like him would have enormously powerful rage after 10 horrible years of continued abuse and neglect, and this is excluding what happened to him when he was a baby. Harry should've been a very dangerous and destructive person at Hogwarts because it would've been the first time that he ever got away from the Dursleys. He'd be going buckwild and stirring up who knows what because for the first time, he'd be free from them.

Understandably, England treats mental illness very differently from the way we treat it in the States. But is Rowling's point that magic has retarded progress so much that many of the attitudes are still very medieval and antiquated? I have no idea.

On the topic of magic in other places, I mean places like the Carribean and Africa and even India. In Book 4, the other countries mentioned were either former English colonies or European, and they were all some part of the Western world. What about the magical happenings of war-torn places like Haiti and Sudan? What about Colombia? Ooh, or Japan and South Korea? Again, it's a lot of white people. Even a white person from the Caymen Islands would've added a different flavor to it all.

Those are my thoughts for now. Again, I think that Rowling is a good writer and I have to give her props for securing a place in pop culture forever. There are just so many things about the HP World that never get addressed. I may be taking the books too seriously, but am I any different from the people who dress up like Harry and his friends at book releases and movies premieres?

Persephone13


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:03 pm


Black people in HP - actually, I'm pretty sure that in the books it said that one of the 3 girls on the Gryffindor Quidditch team (was it Kate or something? I don't remember) was black.

And I see what you mean about different cultures, I'm not sure how magic would work in those places. eek Maybe poverty isn't as big an issue for wizards in other countries? After all, making things appear out of thin air probably means saving a lot of money on stuff....
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