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SanguineV
Crew

PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 12:45 am


What do you think the ideal form of government is? Please add in details on how it would run not just a simple description, there are after all a vast range of governments covered by such simple terms as 'communism', 'democracy' and the like - some of the more common terms aren't even forms of government, but ideals.

So please, be as detailed as you like.
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 2:37 am


Socrates said listen to the expert over the masses or a Dictatorship.
Whereas in todays socity Democray seems the way to go but then who leads the masses to make the final dicision, it seems where all missing something. I myself preffer democracy, but I am too young to vote.
(btw- this is my 1001 post!)

M.C
Crew


~Ninja_Moo~

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 11:21 am


Hi... sorry, I had a really nice post all set up for this when my computer froze. I'll try and summarize it:

I believe forms of government can't really work. Many say that governments fail because of greed: that humans are inherintly greedy, and so tricky greedy people will always evade the defenses of government and take over. I think this is so, but only part of the truth. Allow me to introduce a word from Sanskrit, because the English language is kind of limited: Nrishansa. Nrishansa is a word describing sort of a tree of emotion, the branches being jealousy, greed, hatred, prejudice, etc., and the trunk being ignorance. That's a pretty lame description on my part, but okay. I believe that Nrishansa is like a plague over mankind, passed down through generations by parents who teach their children their ways. I don't think it has to exist, but it does. I believe governments themselves are the product of Nrishansa. Governments are first created to keep Nrishansa in check, but soon Nrishansa takes them over. With no greed or jealousy or hate there would be no reason for government, but with it both government and it's bane are born. Yeah that summarizes it.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 8:46 pm


Governments won't work...blah blah blah... greed... blah blah... human corruption...blah...anarchy.

Let's avoid all that and move into the ideal, basically assuming all that doesn't exist. With this, I would have to agree with Karl Marx. True communism is probably the best way to go about things. If you look at the Native Americans [East coast], they lived in a true communistic society and they got on great. Sure, they had issues with other tribes, however, within their own tribe, they were truely content. Of course their wasn't much to be greedy about or any power to lust, so that's probably why it worked out, however I do think it was perfect.

iMito


boku_wa_kage

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 9:04 pm


I'm going to read Aristotle's Politics... and then write something... ADIOS!! blaugh
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 9:19 am


M.C
Socrates said listen to the expert over the masses or a Dictatorship.
Whereas in todays socity Democray seems the way to go but then who leads the masses to make the final dicision, it seems where all missing something. I myself preffer democracy, but I am too young to vote.
(btw- this is my 1001 post!)


but socrates argument was flawed...

Its a subjective matter of opinion as to what makes an expert. Is it someone with experiance? Someone who is educated in that area? Someome with a natural gift? Or, someone who agrees with what is accepted by the masses to be right?

Lizbeth_r9


Lizbeth_r9

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 9:26 am


SPMito
Governments won't work...blah blah blah... greed... blah blah... human corruption...blah...anarchy.

Let's avoid all that and move into the ideal, basically assuming all that doesn't exist. With this, I would have to agree with Karl Marx. True communism is probably the best way to go about things. If you look at the Native Americans [East coast], they lived in a true communistic society and they got on great. Sure, they had issues with other tribes, however, within their own tribe, they were truely content. Of course their wasn't much to be greedy about or any power to lust, so that's probably why it worked out, however I do think it was perfect.



I don't think that a state of nature (no government of any kind) could work. When people group together the first thing they do is select a leader, even if its just under the guise of a 'spokes person'. You need some force of government if only to enforce the rules, keeping people safe and that it is worth taking on long term projects (like growing food, or building houses).

Alot of people point at Russia or China and go- see communism doesn't work! But of courese theres is not true communism, at least not as Marx envsioned it (if nothing else they hadn't gone through the earlier stages of government that he had suggested were required- like democracy). It is a very idealistic view of society.

I like it- from each what he is capable, and to each what is required!
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:58 am


SPMito
Governments won't work...blah blah blah... greed... blah blah... human corruption...blah...anarchy.

Let's avoid all that and move into the ideal, basically assuming all that doesn't exist. With this, I would have to agree with Karl Marx. True communism is probably the best way to go about things. If you look at the Native Americans [East coast], they lived in a true communistic society and they got on great. Sure, they had issues with other tribes, however, within their own tribe, they were truely content. Of course their wasn't much to be greedy about or any power to lust, so that's probably why it worked out, however I do think it was perfect.


Are you just denying the historical proof that greedy, more agressive people like Hitler and Pol Pot and Sadaam Hussein eventually get into power and then take it over? Sure, I concede that Communism can work on a very small level, but even then... take, say... Lord of the Flies. Though the small tribe starts out as a democracy, the stupidity of the "masses" and the savagery of the agressive boy, Jack, eventually gets to them and turns it into an Autocracy. William Golding, in his famous novel, was writing about what happens to real governments, not just ones run by children. A cunning analogy!

~Ninja_Moo~


iMito

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 4:40 pm


TheBeatnik
SPMito
Governments won't work...blah blah blah... greed... blah blah... human corruption...blah...anarchy.

Let's avoid all that and move into the ideal, basically assuming all that doesn't exist. With this, I would have to agree with Karl Marx. True communism is probably the best way to go about things. If you look at the Native Americans [East coast], they lived in a true communistic society and they got on great. Sure, they had issues with other tribes, however, within their own tribe, they were truely content. Of course their wasn't much to be greedy about or any power to lust, so that's probably why it worked out, however I do think it was perfect.


Are you just denying the historical proof that greedy, more agressive people like Hitler and Pol Pot and Sadaam Hussein eventually get into power and then take it over? Sure, I concede that Communism can work on a very small level, but even then... take, say... Lord of the Flies. Though the small tribe starts out as a democracy, the stupidity of the "masses" and the savagery of the agressive boy, Jack, eventually gets to them and turns it into an Autocracy. William Golding, in his famous novel, was writing about what happens to real governments, not just ones run by children. A cunning analogy!


I'm not denying anything, the question was what government is the most ideal. Idealism rejects all problems and looks at idealy, what would be the best if EVERYTHING worked out.
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 6:58 pm


SPMito
TheBeatnik
SPMito
Governments won't work...blah blah blah... greed... blah blah... human corruption...blah...anarchy.

Let's avoid all that and move into the ideal, basically assuming all that doesn't exist. With this, I would have to agree with Karl Marx. True communism is probably the best way to go about things. If you look at the Native Americans [East coast], they lived in a true communistic society and they got on great. Sure, they had issues with other tribes, however, within their own tribe, they were truely content. Of course their wasn't much to be greedy about or any power to lust, so that's probably why it worked out, however I do think it was perfect.


Are you just denying the historical proof that greedy, more agressive people like Hitler and Pol Pot and Sadaam Hussein eventually get into power and then take it over? Sure, I concede that Communism can work on a very small level, but even then... take, say... Lord of the Flies. Though the small tribe starts out as a democracy, the stupidity of the "masses" and the savagery of the agressive boy, Jack, eventually gets to them and turns it into an Autocracy. William Golding, in his famous novel, was writing about what happens to real governments, not just ones run by children. A cunning analogy!


I'm not denying anything, the question was what government is the most ideal. Idealism rejects all problems and looks at idealy, what would be the best if EVERYTHING worked out.


Okay, sorry for stating my opinion on something when it wasn't asked for. But please, rather than "blah blah blah", please say it in nicer terms. That was kind of rude. I... I just misread the question.

~Ninja_Moo~


Ares

PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2005 8:25 am


The ideal government is one that works, really. Whatever works. Americans seems to think it's democracy, Brits think it's constitutional monarchy, Mid-easterns think it's dictatorship. But they all think it's right, because it all works for them. Every situation is different, so we can't really say what is ideal, because it would be ideal for the present situation and time. We can't really say what will happen in the future.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 10:47 am


If you think the actual form of government varies, then how would you measure the success of the government? Would a happy population be good? How about prosperity of population? Peace? Standard of living?

SanguineV
Crew


Socrates in Disguise
Captain

PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 10:17 pm


Plato
There will be no end to the troubles of states, or of humanity itself, till philosophers become kings in this world, or till those we now call kings and rulers really and truly become philosophers, and political power and philosophy thus come into the same hands.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:13 am


An ideal government is when people do not rebel. It is impossible, unless you take away people's free will, for people not to rebel.

Anyone ever read Brave New World by Aldous Huxley? Although it is a horrible society to one of us outsiders, a society such as the one in Brave New World would be stable and happy. I'm too lazy to describe what Aldous Huxley describes in over 200 pages, so I'll leave you to read or contemplate that piece of literature.

Rev Shrubbery


Digital Leviathan

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:51 pm


My government would be mostly libertarian. I would have everyone with an IQ under 110 sterilized. Anyone with a genetic debilitiating physical defect would be sterilized. Everyone will be tested for HIV. Anyone that has HIV will be moved to their own colony, which will be upper-middle class and well fed. They will get all of the medication they possibly need. Anyone that avoids being taken to this place will be made into a eunich.
All large corporations will be dissolved into smaller companies. All nonviolent drug offenders will be pardoned, and drugs will be made legal. Taxes will be abolished and replaced with user fees, with one exception. Drugs will be taxed to pay for the programs described above.
Rape will be punished with jail for not shorter than 1 year the first offense. Not longer than 10 years for the second count. And will result in amputation of sex organs on the third count.
I won't have a utopia, but I'll be damn close.
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Philosophers Anonymous

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