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Alissa Meningford

PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2005 10:00 pm


"Bad thoughts cause illness of the mind, body, and spirit. Practice optimism."
- Native American Code of Ethics

I am an optimist.
Optimism is the only logical choice.

Others might prefer to be 'cynics','realists', or 'pessimists' -- however, I consider all of these to be synonymous, and all of them are equally impractical.

I will define each of these terms, and explain why I believe that they are impractical stances.

*Note that this post is written assuming that a person wants good things to happen. Either for themselves, or for those around them.

Cynic
A person who's outlook is habitually scornful or negative.
If you have fallen into a habit of negativity, then there are probably a great deal many negative aspects about you as a person.
Anyone who has a generally scornful view of everything around them will have great difficulty in seeing the good in what they view.
Anyone who cannot find the good in what they see will have a very tought time discerning good opportunities from bad ones -- and nothing good will happen to them as they will pass up every good opportunity that arises.

Pessimist
A person who believes that the worst that can happen will probably happen.
Murphy is a great example of a pessimist. If a person will continually believe that the worst will happen, then chances are that they will not bother putting forth an effort towards making good things happen. (It will all turn out bad in the end anyways!)
If a person will not put out an effort towards making good things happen, then their chances of having good things happen are significantly lowered.

Realist
One who is inclined to a realistic view.
This one is a bit tricky. While a realist is somewhat less annoying than a pessimist or a cynic, my experience is thus: People who claim to be 'realistic' are actually being cynical, or pessimistic.
However, a true realist is not so bad -- they will be quick to point out when an endeavor is likely to succeed. However, they will also be quick to point out when they believe that said endeavor will likely fail.
However, if a person ignores a 'realistic' approach, and strives for what they want, then the chances of their endeavor succeeding are significantly increased.


My belief is that a true optimist is defined in a slightly different manner than a dictionary-defined optimist.
(The dictionary defines an optimist as someone who usually expects a favorable outcome.)

My belief is that a true optimist keeps a realistic view in mind, but does not let this limit them -- they will strive to better the odds for whatever they seek.
And optimist will not give up at the slightest chance of failure -- nothing is over until it is over -- only then can an optimist claim failure.
Many people believe that optimist set themselves up for diappointment -- this is not true.
A true optimist will maintain a positive view, even in the case of a failure.
Failures are an opportunity to learn and gain experience.
In the case of a failure, a true optimist will learn from their failures and/or mistakes, and they will eagerly embrace the next endeavor.

Most importantly of all, an optimist will never give up.
An optimist maintains a positive outlook, no matter how difficult it may be.
Whatever the cost, and optimist will maintain their positive energies.

The optimist's mantra:
"Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising every time we fall"
- Confucious

-Alezunde
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 2:03 pm


That's a very interesting outlook, but I don't think you can define cynic and pessimist by the book and not optimist. Although they are generally much the same. Its a very nice argument none the less. I imagine its difficult though for someone, even when seeing the advantadges to switch views on life.

airsswordsman
Crew


Starlock

PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 5:48 pm


A lot of people in this era seem to be predominantly cynical/pessimistic. I was that way myself until somehow I was woken up to the fact that you don't have to see things that way. Optimists are so rare you don't often get exposed to them much! Of course the way the media is set up doesn't help. Turn on the news and what do you see? A whole bucketload of cynical pessimism and bad news. No wonder why people are so cynical and pessimistic in this age! People poke things apart for flaws and look at only the bad sides of things instead of bothering to apprechiate a thing's good aspects or what they have.

Of course, there's a really good reason why American culture programs us to be cynical pessimists and generally unhappy people. Because happy people make poor consumers. Happy people are satisfied with what they have, for the most part, and though they still might participate in the consumer market, they do not obsessively buy to excess like the sad, cynical pessimist does. Heck, I've noticed among my own friends that the ones who own the most stuff are the ones who are cynical, pessimistic, and often unhappy (of course money is a factor, but often I find even when these people DON'T have the money they get into debt to have things).

This is only a theory, of course. Not one I've looked into a lot, but it was spoken by the well-reputed Patch Adams when I went to see him speak a few months ago in my college. It made a scarily great amount of sense. sweatdrop Does it make sense to anyone else?
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2005 7:30 pm


Your largest error is your stated assumption:
you
*Note that this post is written assuming that a person wants good things to happen. Either for themselves, or for those around them.
Unfortunately, not everyone wants that which is good to happen to themselves, or those around them.

Moreover, we will get into really sticky territory defining what is 'good.' For example, is 'good' something that is universal, subjective, or intersubjective? Also, if it is subjective, how can we define 'good?' If good is subjective, then it follows logically that 'good' is in the realm of private language, and thus it is something that one themself must define, as no one else can do it for them.

Another thing, is that which wwe want, that which is 'good?' You seem to also say that want defines goodness, however, if that is true, then that means that good must be subjective, and that it is in the realm of private langauge and is something we cannot talk about.

If the pessimist sees failing as good, is he then an optimist?

chaoticpuppet


Scorpo

PostPosted: Mon May 23, 2005 8:36 am


Optimism can be quite a difficult subject... for instance, in a traffic situation, one is supposed to be a cynic, assuming that the worst may happen and preparing for it.

While hope is necessary for day-to-day living, it is not a very logical choice. Optimism makes the assumption that people are good. Cynicism looks at thousands of years of human history, and makes the conclusion that people will act out of self-interest.

There might be more good people than evil out there, but evil tends to be flashier. It's very hard to notice some simple acts of charity. Even so, charity tends to be done out of self-interest, or guilt. ("I would want people to help me this way if that ever happened to me." or "Wow. Maybe it was something I did... I should help.")

There can be arguments and counter-arguments about this particular facet of human nature, each side concluding that theirs is in the right and the other is in the wrong. This acheives no tangible result. This is also why there are very few jobs out there for Philosophers.
PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 3:39 pm


I am still alive though my erratic and downright eccentric ravings and rantings have no doubt not been missed. However lets us continue. In response to this topic I have to say that 1) I am a pessimist. 2) I often believe that yes the worst will happen. 3) That, however doesn't stop me from trying to better the situation I find myself in, which is called life. Now according to your definition of these titles(Cynic, Optimist, etc...) am I a pessimist trying to be an optiomist or an optimist trying to be a pessimist?

wolf-larsen
Crew


Starlock

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2005 6:09 pm


wolf-larsen
I am still alive though my erratic and downright eccentric ravings and rantings have no doubt not been missed. However lets us continue. In response to this topic I have to say that 1) I am a pessimist. 2) I often believe that yes the worst will happen. 3) That, however doesn't stop me from trying to better the situation I find myself in, which is called life. Now according to your definition of these titles(Cynic, Optimist, etc...) am I a pessimist trying to be an optiomist or an optimist trying to be a pessimist?


If the outlook is generally negative, that'd still be classified as a pessimist. I don't think there are many people other than the suicidal who don't want to try and find a better sittuation to put oneself in. It's probably ingrained into the self-centered nature of every human on the planet. You always want to forward your own progress, be you an optimist or pessimist or whatever. The desire to forward one own's progress is an attribute that should be seperate from optimism and pessimism, as a person can try find ways to make a stituation better in either mode of thought.
PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 3:13 pm


I am an optomist. Why does this matter? How can it possibly make a difference in everyday life? If I truely believe that I will ace my final tomorrow, it could have a significant effect on my performance.

A. In the very physical sense, the positive thoughts will increase my moral and possibly encourage me to study more and be less nervous, letting me retain the information.
B. I will feel better about the test and allow myself to concentrate on other areas of my life that need work. Using my optomism, I can assure myself that I will do well, and work on my essay for English.

Now a pessimist might claim they choose that outlook so they will be less disappointed when they fail. However, if you think you will do well and you do, won't that be exactly the same except with an overall result for the positive? And if you expect to fail, and you pass, will the experience be any more gratifying. If your a pessimist, you'll probably consider it a lucky try and move on.

Ex. If I get a lot of A's and I think I'll fail this test, will I be any less disappointed if I expected it?

In essence, your perspective can make a big difference on the way things effect you. An optomist may take everything as a learning experience, while a pessimist might just shove it aside and move on.

*These are all assumption based on stereotypes and basic human nature. Please do not bash my head into a wall if you disagree, they are only speculations.

bonkiep


Alissa Meningford

PostPosted: Wed May 25, 2005 10:44 pm


airsswordsman:
You are right -- I did define most of these by the book, with the exception of the optimist.
However, this post does not necessarily describe a optimist in the book-sense -- it more describes my ideal of an optimist.
On another note, most cynics and pessimists that I have met tend to fall under the book definitions.
Your second point is a good one:
A person, even when presented the advantages of changing their perspective on everyday life will have a hard time switching views.
My reply: Optimism is work.
However, all of that work pays off in the end.
There is a saying among many people of the world that seems to hold true:
"Energy you put into the universe, good or bad, will multiply when it returns to you."
And on an ending note, the idea of this post is to hopefully help people make the transition to optimism, if so desired.

Starlock:
You always seem to have very valid thoughts, and I always love to hear them. 3nodding
I love your mention to the rarity of optimists!
It is so very true... sad
If we were surrounded by optimists, I believe that the quality of life by each affected would rise dramatically.
It is true that consumerism plays upon our insecurities, generally telling us that we "could be more, if only we had this product."
Insecure people tend to be very unhappy.
For the most part, cynicism is pervasive -- and it's hard not to reflect and adapt to our environment, becoming cynical ourselves.
Starlock is right -- none of us have to be cynical -- it is our choice.

chaoticpuppet:
That was not an error. My error would be to not have made that statement.
Good may be defined as that which promotes happiness for ourselves and others.
Philosophers have pondered this very subject over the millenia -- and this seems to be the general consensus.
Also, if you are not looking for good in or around you, then this topic is probably not for you.
Also, you asked this:
If a pessimist sees failing as good, then is he an optimist?
No. You've answered your own question by labeling your character as a pessimist.

Scorpo:
Being prepared for the worst, and expecting the worst is one thing that separates optimists and pessimists.
Optimism does not necessarily assume that people are good.
However, it is my belief that people are innately good, or at least innately neutral -- but never innately bad.

My reasoning is thus:
Any person, with full knowledge of the options of action that they may take, will invariably choose the option that will make them happy. They will always act out of self-interest.
Interestingly enough, this option will consistently be the choice to take a good action.
Good actions promote your happiness, and happiness of others.
If the action is completely selfish, then the person in question will be happy.
If the action is completely selfless, then the person in question gains satisfaction, and the support of others -- who will in turn strive to make the person in question happy.

Optimism still remains a highly logical choice, which bonkiep has provided a good example of.

wolf-larsen:
Starlock has done a good job answering your question in her reply to your post.
Read the start of my reply to Scorpo for clarity.

Starlock:
I agree that most people will attempt progress for themselves.
However, I am not sure that suicidal people are exempt from the desire to put themselves in a better position. :p
And you are right -- there are ways that both optimists and pessimists can better their situation. However even for pessimists, this requires at least a spark of optimistic thought. smile

bonkiep:
I like the example that you have included. smile
One of the most important aspects of optimism is its ability to put us in a mindset that will enable us to achieve. You have outlined that quite nicely.
You have a very valid and well-thought post.


I like the replies that this topic has been getting!
Keep them coming. biggrin


-Alezunde
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2005 6:00 pm


You defined good in terms of happiness, what then is happiness?

Moreover, why is good, or happiness not part of private language?

chaoticpuppet


wolf-larsen
Crew

PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2005 6:56 am


I belive that she has indeed. Thank you Starlock"He gives a bow.
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 3:21 pm


I'm cynical about myself, realistic about what I can do but pessimistic about what will happen when I do it. What does that make me?

It makes me very happy when I do something right and unsurprised when something goes wrong.

A cynic will always put themselves, or whatever they're cynical about, down and not believe they'll get anywhere but when they do they will be impressed, happy or they'll just be cynical about anything else the subject of the cynicism has to do. If they do something wrong they'll be expecting it and won't be put down. They may even feel better about being right.

A realist will often be right if they're experienced and so will also rarely be disappointed. They are usually logical so when they do do something wrong they analyse it and learn for next time to not make that mistake again, constantly improving themselves. However, when they get something right, they will not be impressed or happy because they knew they could do it.

A pessimist will always prepare for what is likely to go wrong and will most likely avoid many stupid mistakes that optimists will often run into when they hope it won't happen. A pessimist will not be put down when something goes wrong and often may find it funny that they were right, even if they were the person it happened to.

Trumpster


Kalile Alako

PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 11:56 pm


I'm not sure I agree with your definition of a 'realist'. It is my opinion that defining oneself as "a realist" is not an accurate term.

The reason:
Realism is based entirely on perspective.
When I hear the term, it is usually when someone accuses another person of being a pessimist. That person usually says that they are a realist, not a pessimist.

However, I don't think that anyone can accurately call themselves a realist, because everyone is acting in accordance with their world view. A pessimist is pessimistic because they believe the world to be bad . An optimist is exactly the same. To them, their worldview reflects reality, and is therefore realistic.

That being said, I think it is interesting that I subscribe to John Locke's theory that humans are innately good; all the evidence of my eyes suggests otherwise, and yet I agree with everyone else on this topic who proclaims themselves optimistic.
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 12:07 pm


I believe a realist to be someone who does not hope for something to work nor believe it wont. They usually are logical and know their abilities so they can judge the probability of success but this is not always the case.

If you put it on a varying scale such as with the definitions between lawful and chaotic alignments then an optimist is at one end of the scale, a pessimist is at the other end and a realist is in between, balanced between the two.

Trumpster


Alissa Meningford

PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 10:11 pm


chaoticpuppet
You defined good in terms of happiness, what then is happiness?

Moreover, why is good, or happiness not part of private language?


Because happiness is a universal human emotion.
Like love, I cannot offer a clear-cut definition for happiness.
However, I expect that you already know what happiness is, at least for yourself.
Happiness is a feeling, and not an action.

Trumpster:
It makes you a negative person.
Cynicism is negative, and pessimism is negative.
I suspect that if you view your abilities 'realistically' then you limit yourself.

Cynicism is an inherently negative stance.
Negative thoughts strongly influence your actions -- and therefore your actions will be negatively affected.
From my experience, no cynic has been happy when they accomplish something -- instead they whine about the things that didn't go right.
On a side note: I find cynics extremely annoying people to be around.

In your second post, you state that a realist does not hope for certain results.
However, if you remove hope from a person, you remove their ability to achieve.
The greatest achievers have always been the greatest dreamers, hoping to achieve their dreams.

In your first post again you state that a realist will often be right if they are experienced.
From experience, let me say this:
We cannot judge how experienced we are now until several years from now.
We can only judge our experience through retrospect.
Therefore, realism is probably an impractical stance.

for another thought, read the last paragraph of my reply to Kalile Alako.

Your statement on pessimism implies that you didn't pay close enough attention to my initial post -- I won't bother replying, as every point you make is countered in my first post.

Kalile Alako:
I agree with you on the point that realism is dependent upon individual perspective.
It is hard to make realism practical unless you have the ability to view eveything from an entirely objective angle.
Also, experience counts for a lot here.

With those two thoughts in mind:
I mentioned in my reply to Trumpster that relying upon your own supposed level of experience is impractical.
Also, it is not very possible to view things objectively unless you have not an ounce of either optimism or pessimism to influence you.


-Alezunde
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