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Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 12:31 pm
Donnie Darko is one of my favorite movies but I've never actually had time to consider this before with a group of other philosophers. Any ideas?
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 1:01 pm
I've never even seen, or heard of, Donnie Darko but I have seen Timeline which has time travel in it. And also I watch a show called Stargate that has a couple episodes that deal with time travel. And, of course, I've seen the Back to the Future movies.
In theory, yes time travel is possible. But in actuallity it's not. What has been done has been done. You can't just go back in time and change things. And even if you could it would be unwise. Too much can be changed by too little. And besides the theory of time travel often has you going through wormholes. But in reality a wormhole is much too unstable for you to pass through. You would never come out the other side but would instead be lost forever.
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 1:02 pm
From what I understand of relativity and quantum mechanics it is possible to time travel forwards but not backwards.
Of course if people could travel backwards in time it creates the possability of their actions altering the future... Is a known future fated to exist, or is it mutable. If it is mutable then what alterations can happen, can the future be changed in such a way that the events leading to the time traveller returning to the past to alter the future cannot come to pass?
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 1:08 pm
TigerCatNails I've never even seen, or heard of, Donnie Darko but I have seen Timeline which has time travel in it. And also I watch a show called Stargate that has a couple episodes that deal with time travel. And, of course, I've seen the Back to the Future movies.
In theory, yes time travel is possible. But in actuallity it's not. What has been done has been done. You can't just go back in time and change things. And even if you could it would be unwise. Too much can be changed by too little. And besides the theory of time travel often has you going through wormholes. But in reality a wormhole is much too unstable for you to pass through. You would never come out the other side but would instead be lost forever. Well, go see Donnie Darko before telling me about time travel. You see, what you've just said is what we've all heard before, generic warnings of not to meddle with the past. If, per se, you came and left the past without altering anything at all, could it not be safe? First you said it was impossible, then unecessarily said that if it was if would be unwise... okay.... we've all heard those things before. Give some reasons! Your wormhole reason is the only one, and of course, you know everything about things the greatest rocket scientists know only the bare bones about, having been in a wormhole right? You've never been in one, don't jump to conclusions.
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 1:14 pm
TheBeatnik Well, go see Donnie Darko before telling me about time travel. You see, what you've just said is what we've all heard before, generic warnings of not to meddle with the past. If, per se, you came and left the past without altering anything at all, could it not be safe? First you said it was impossible, then unecessarily said that if it was if would be unwise... okay.... we've all heard those things before. Give some reasons! Your wormhole reason is the only one, and of course, you know everything about things the greatest rocket scientists know only the bare bones about, having been in a wormhole right? You've never been in one, don't jump to conclusions. So, what, is this Donnie Darko the begin all and end all of time travel that the only way I could know anything is by watching it? It's a movie. How factual can it be? And my remarks on wormholes were based on scientific findings. I wasn't making it up and I never claimed to know everything. Why would I? I know I don't and I can admit it. So, why don't you, instead of saying that I'm claiming to know everything, which I'm not actual say something of value. I mean, are you just going to sit around and critisize the opinions of others or are you actually going to give your own opinions or thoughts on whether or not time travel is possible?
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 1:17 pm
SanguineV From what I understand of relativity and quantum mechanics it is possible to time travel forwards but not backwards.
Of course if people could travel backwards in time it creates the possability of their actions altering the future... Is a known future fated to exist, or is it mutable. If it is mutable then what alterations can happen, can the future be changed in such a way that the events leading to the time traveller returning to the past to alter the future cannot come to pass? In Donnie Darko they naturally disprove the possibility of foreseeing a fated future. Supposing the future IS predetermined, they say, it would be impossible to see into it. If your designed future were visible to you, you would be presented with a choice to agree with it or deny with it, thereby making fate inherintly contradictory. Supposing your idea that you could travel to the future and adjust it so you could await it back in the past... that doesn't work either, on the same level, just shifted slightly upward. THen that means the actions taken in the present could further affect what you have already altered, thereby making it moot... I come to a half-conclusion from this that time travel to the future, if possible, would be unable to change very much at all, and time travel to the past, if possible, could change the present on a large scale, but that one must not have the intention to do so. Now a refrain we've heard much before... time travel is contradictory? Let's say a nazi sympathizer builds a time machine with the motive of making it so Hitler (yes again with the Hitler metaphors) would win WWII... he travels to the past and completes his objective... later on in time we will know Hitler DID win WWII. But knowing this, the nazi sympathizer of the future will have no reason to build a time machine, his objective already having been completed, and nothing will have then happened. From this I can conclude that if travel to the past is possible, changing the past is impossible. Because if you succeed in changing it you will never have had reason to change it in the first place.
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 1:39 pm
TheBeatnik SanguineV From what I understand of relativity and quantum mechanics it is possible to time travel forwards but not backwards.
Of course if people could travel backwards in time it creates the possability of their actions altering the future... Is a known future fated to exist, or is it mutable. If it is mutable then what alterations can happen, can the future be changed in such a way that the events leading to the time traveller returning to the past to alter the future cannot come to pass? In Donnie Darko they naturally disprove the possibility of foreseeing a fated future. Supposing the future IS predetermined, they say, it would be impossible to see into it. If your designed future were visible to you, you would be presented with a choice to agree with it or deny with it, thereby making fate inherintly contradictory. Supposing your idea that you could travel to the future and adjust it so you could await it back in the past... that doesn't work either, on the same level, just shifted slightly upward. THen that means the actions taken in the present could further affect what you have already altered, thereby making it moot... I come to a half-conclusion from this that time travel to the future, if possible, would be unable to change very much at all, and time travel to the past, if possible, could change the present on a large scale, but that one must not have the intention to do so. Now a refrain we've heard much before... time travel is contradictory? Let's say a nazi sympathizer builds a time machine with the motive of making it so Hitler (yes again with the Hitler metaphors) would win WWII... he travels to the past and completes his objective... later on in time we will know Hitler DID win WWII. But knowing this, the nazi sympathizer of the future will have no reason to build a time machine, his objective already having been completed, and nothing will have then happened. From this I can conclude that if travel to the past is possible, changing the past is impossible. Because if you succeed in changing it you will never have had reason to change it in the first place. Ok, firstly I think you missed the main point of my argument. That as far as we know you can only travel to the future. This means you could jump to a future time but not jump back afterwards. Essentially you are suspending yourself in time until a predetermined 'time' and rejoining the timeline. This doesn't allow for meddling in a way you can then observe int he sense you are implying.
Regarding Donnie Darko, it was an amusing movie, but I would hardly call it a well documentd evidence of any ime travel theory. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but it is fictional and the science behind it non-existant in the explanatory sense. The theory behind it (speaking of their own ideas, which are not linked to science) is what you seem to be discussing.
A fated future can be seen. You would see the future and even if you disagree with it there may be nothing that you can do to prevent it. Look at Minoriy Report as an example, even when the main character knows he is going to kill someone and tries not to events conspire to make it happen. Sure, it is about as reliable as Donnie Darko, but I hope it illustrates my point.
Your second point diagrees with my presise that you can only travel one way. You are talking about travelling both forwards (to the future) and backwards (back to the current).
The Hitler example is going with your assumption that you can travel back in time. Assuming you can then you hit the inevitable paradox you have just created... The only solution is the 'fate' argument from the Minority Report example - that no matter what you do events will still work out as fate Has already dictated and no attempt to alter it will work.
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 1:45 pm
There is hole in your Hitler theory. Even presuming that a nazi sympathiser could and did travel to the past and change the tide of WWII, its still possible for people to know about it. He could have told people. He could have written a book or a journal. I mean he didn't just change the past and then simply cease to exist. Any number of things could have happened to make at least some people now that at one point Hitler had lost during WWII.
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 3:26 pm
TigerCatNails There is hole in your Hitler theory. Even presuming that a nazi sympathiser could and did travel to the past and change the tide of WWII, its still possible for people to know about it. He could have told people. He could have written a book or a journal. I mean he didn't just change the past and then simply cease to exist. Any number of things could have happened to make at least some people now that at one point Hitler had lost during WWII. But we're saying he really DID want Hitler to win the war, not just to SAY he did... the effects would be astounding... most of Europe would no doubt belong to a large superpower nation, the Axis, the USSR would only come into being half-cooked, etc. Because of his motive to change what he wanted in the past was already completed, he would never have had that motive in the first place, and thereby would never have been compelled to change it in the first place. It's contradictory.
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 3:39 pm
SanguineV TheBeatnik SanguineV From what I understand of relativity and quantum mechanics it is possible to time travel forwards but not backwards.
Of course if people could travel backwards in time it creates the possability of their actions altering the future... Is a known future fated to exist, or is it mutable. If it is mutable then what alterations can happen, can the future be changed in such a way that the events leading to the time traveller returning to the past to alter the future cannot come to pass? In Donnie Darko they naturally disprove the possibility of foreseeing a fated future. Supposing the future IS predetermined, they say, it would be impossible to see into it. If your designed future were visible to you, you would be presented with a choice to agree with it or deny with it, thereby making fate inherintly contradictory. Supposing your idea that you could travel to the future and adjust it so you could await it back in the past... that doesn't work either, on the same level, just shifted slightly upward. THen that means the actions taken in the present could further affect what you have already altered, thereby making it moot... I come to a half-conclusion from this that time travel to the future, if possible, would be unable to change very much at all, and time travel to the past, if possible, could change the present on a large scale, but that one must not have the intention to do so. Now a refrain we've heard much before... time travel is contradictory? Let's say a nazi sympathizer builds a time machine with the motive of making it so Hitler (yes again with the Hitler metaphors) would win WWII... he travels to the past and completes his objective... later on in time we will know Hitler DID win WWII. But knowing this, the nazi sympathizer of the future will have no reason to build a time machine, his objective already having been completed, and nothing will have then happened. From this I can conclude that if travel to the past is possible, changing the past is impossible. Because if you succeed in changing it you will never have had reason to change it in the first place. Ok, firstly I think you missed the main point of my argument. That as far as we know you can only travel to the future. This means you could jump to a future time but not jump back afterwards. Essentially you are suspending yourself in time until a predetermined 'time' and rejoining the timeline. This doesn't allow for meddling in a way you can then observe int he sense you are implying.
Regarding Donnie Darko, it was an amusing movie, but I would hardly call it a well documentd evidence of any ime travel theory. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but it is fictional and the science behind it non-existant in the explanatory sense. The theory behind it (speaking of their own ideas, which are not linked to science) is what you seem to be discussing.
A fated future can be seen. You would see the future and even if you disagree with it there may be nothing that you can do to prevent it. Look at Minoriy Report as an example, even when the main character knows he is going to kill someone and tries not to events conspire to make it happen. Sure, it is about as reliable as Donnie Darko, but I hope it illustrates my point.
Your second point diagrees with my presise that you can only travel one way. You are talking about travelling both forwards (to the future) and backwards (back to the current).
The Hitler example is going with your assumption that you can travel back in time. Assuming you can then you hit the inevitable paradox you have just created... The only solution is the 'fate' argument from the Minority Report example - that no matter what you do events will still work out as fate Has already dictated and no attempt to alter it will work.No problem about being harsh, you weren't really. I just found the paradox they bring up in that movie at the one scene where Donnie is discussing predetermined reality with the professor very interesting. I know it has no scientific basis, but it doesn't need one; it's just common logic. As for your continuing idea about being able to travel only to the future: just, no. We can't base our debate on your limited grasp of quantum mechanics. We can't even base it on the knowledge of a thousand scientists. What humans know of this subject is excruciatingly little. Rather than just ruling something out with a wave of the hand. Everything mankind knows on this is theoretical... it's a theory that we can't travel to the past, just like it's a theory we can.
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 3:52 pm
TheBeatnik No problem about being harsh, you weren't really. I just found the paradox they bring up in that movie at the one scene where Donnie is discussing predetermined reality with the professor very interesting. I know it has no scientific basis, but it doesn't need one; it's just common logic. As for your continuing idea about being able to travel only to the future: just, no. We can't base our debate on your limited grasp of quantum mechanics. We can't even base it on the knowledge of a thousand scientists. What humans know of this subject is excruciatingly little. Rather than just ruling something out with a wave of the hand. Everything mankind knows on this is theoretical... it's a theory that we can't travel to the past, just like it's a theory we can. Common logic doesn't always hold up, after all it was common logic once that the earth was flat. However I see your point and agree that for the moment without a sounder theory common logic is all we can work with.
Carrying this on then yes we can debate time travel with all possabilities, I am just saying that from my (slightly informed?) perspective it is impossible... I have no problem with discussing it as theoritcal though - so let us run with that.
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 4:05 pm
SanguineV TheBeatnik No problem about being harsh, you weren't really. I just found the paradox they bring up in that movie at the one scene where Donnie is discussing predetermined reality with the professor very interesting. I know it has no scientific basis, but it doesn't need one; it's just common logic. As for your continuing idea about being able to travel only to the future: just, no. We can't base our debate on your limited grasp of quantum mechanics. We can't even base it on the knowledge of a thousand scientists. What humans know of this subject is excruciatingly little. Rather than just ruling something out with a wave of the hand. Everything mankind knows on this is theoretical... it's a theory that we can't travel to the past, just like it's a theory we can. Common logic doesn't always hold up, after all it was common logic once that the earth was flat. However I see your point and agree that for the moment without a sounder theory common logic is all we can work with.
Carrying this on then yes we can debate time travel with all possabilities, I am just saying that from my (slightly informed?) perspective it is impossible... I have no problem with discussing it as theoritcal though - so let us run with that.Thanks for being so agreeable. And that was a brilliant stab you made with the flat earth example. Ouch! Yeah so I've already said most of what I had to say. Any other ideas, anyone? We can leave this thread open as a home base for new members, I guess.
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Socrates in Disguise Captain
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Posted: Wed May 18, 2005 10:07 pm
TheBeatnik, Please be a little less taken on one movie...it's only fiction after all...and please be a little kinder to the other members, arguing is fine but saying you can't talk if you haven't seen a simple movie isn't right. Quote: having been in a wormhole right? You've never been in one, don't jump to conclusions. Have you ever traveled in time? have you ever come to mathematical conclusions to make a basis of your arguements?...no, your arguements are based on fiction. Thus, we come to unite the philosophies not say that your's is the only one and is supreme...Relax Hume!As for the question, as scientist have theorized, in the Superman theory, if travel at those many times the speed of light were possible were possible you could make it change the time the same way time changes going from say California to New York...
As for the whole paradox question when you go into the future you begin to live in that time so couldn't one say that that is now the present...time is only measured by perspective...it is relative to place and person.
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 2:05 am
Hmmmm.... good topic. I think that travel forward in time may be possible, but even then it wouldn't be as we assume. In a story i read there was a scientist who created a 'slow box' which slows down a persons molecules. to the person inside the box, as i recall, Days seem to pass in seconds, and when they pull the lever and exit the box, it is alsmost a month frow when they first entered. But to all those outside the slow box, the test subject is just moving incredibly slowly. That may be as close to time travel as we can get. Also, as we are on the subject of time, is it possible to stop time, and If so, what would happen?
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Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 12:09 pm
dezrosatweaker TheBeatnik, Please be a little less taken on one movie...it's only fiction after all...and please be a little kinder to the other members, arguing is fine but saying you can't talk if you haven't seen a simple movie isn't right. Quote: having been in a wormhole right? You've never been in one, don't jump to conclusions. Have you ever traveled in time? have you ever come to mathematical conclusions to make a basis of your arguements?...no, your arguements are based on fiction. Thus, we come to unite the philosophies not say that your's is the only one and is supreme...Relax Hume!As for the question, as scientist have theorized, in the Superman theory, if travel at those many times the speed of light were possible were possible you could make it change the time the same way time changes going from say California to New York...
As for the whole paradox question when you go into the future you begin to live in that time so couldn't one say that that is now the present...time is only measured by perspective...it is relative to place and person. OK... sorry please excuse me anyone I may have offended. I was just jokin' about the whole you can't talk thing, sorry, I should have pointed that out. Also the umm wormhole quote well sorry I might have misread, thinking she was coming to conclusions. I admit mine to being an open-ended theory and yeah I'll not rule anything out, just point out that having only one idea on the matter can lead to stubbornness... which of course I am not saying is present in you, but yeah you get my meaning. Sorry. About the California to New York thing, I'm not sure I understand. I mean, I could set my watch to the year to 1:32, January 6th, 1481, but that wouldn't mean I'm actually moving back in time... just by my own perspective... even if the entire planet suddenly started thinking that it was 1980, that would only change the perspective of man, not actually send us into the past...
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