Welcome to Gaia! ::

I'm not a Christian, but was influenced by Christianity because it's the main religion in Germany. I celebrate Christmas and Easter mostly because we don't have school on those legal holidays. I receive presents and buy gifts for others, not because I believe in either Jesus, Santa Claus, the Easterbunny or anyone else who would be on the list "the whos that are connected to Christian traditions, customs and feasts".

I think one of the main reasons why Christians start to doubt their religion is because it has been abused by many people. The Catholic Church for instance started the Crusades, burned many martyrs on the stake for heresy and sold church positions, indulgements and other forms of materialistic symbols to buy oneself out of sin or get to power. This doesn't make sense. If God would be God as described in the Bible he wouldn't like money, he wouldn't be greedy and he would be forgiving, no matter what kind of sin you have done. It's like "hate the sins, but love the sinner". The Catholic Church didn't advertize that part too accurately.

I have another theory. In my opinion hell is something that is supposed to scare people. In Medieval Times, "the dark ages", people were very superstitious and believed in myths and supernatural phenomena. Nobody knows what it will be like after death. We can only speculate, but does it bring us any further? No, because we don't know. The theory of hell is something scary, the "last" judgement and all probably has scared the crap out of some people. They would do anything to flee from hell and in order to get to heaven, the ultimate paradise. I think people need control. People need to be watched because you can't truly trust them. In some way all of us are selfish because otherwise we couldn't survive. If doing wrongs means that we will burn in hell, who wouldn't want to buy oneself out of that mysery? Who wouldn't want to go to heaven instead?

Another point is Jesus. If Jesus was God's son why did he have to die? To show mankind how wicked and evil it itself is? Did he suffer for us, so that we won't make the same mistakes like the ones our ancestors made? But if that's why, why is there still evil? If he knew he would die, why didn't he do anything about it? Why can't people who don't believe in him be good and go to heaven? Is it essential to go to church regularly in order to come to heaven?

I'm going to adress your problems one by one.
1.Well, that's just you.
2.See above.
3.I'd like to see some clarification on how God is represented as selfish. If you are referring to having people make sacrifices to prove their faith-well, that's just proving that that person ISN'T selfish and is a true believer. I don't know what else you might be refering to.
4.Well, I agree with you on that. I don't think that's how it works, but then again, I'm not Christian.
5.I don't know about that. The heaven part-well, if someone has been completly devoted to God for their entire life, why should they have to prove them selves more? The Hell part, I agree with you.
6.But we ain't rocks, are we? Humans can adapt and change as fast as they want to.
7.That's true. If your parents never told you not to stab your brother, or whatever, you would have no clue what "right" and "wrong" were. Therefore, who would go to hell-you, or your parents?
8.Well, Christ didn't set THAT up.
9.I agree with you on that. But I think most religions are a path to God.
10.I'm not sure what your problem is here, but that's okay. neutral
11.Goes with the Hell thing. I don't believe in a Hell. But, in the time of Christ and before, people needed harsh punishment and reward to get them to realize the difference between right and wrong. If Moses hadn't parted the Red Sea, and killed the following Pharoh's men, how many people would still be Jewish? Ect., ect. Of course, I believe in Progressive Revalation, so without that, my answer doesn't make nearly as much sense. sweatdrop
12. I don't think God would send us down knowing who is doomed and who isn't. We are set challenges to our faiths, and if we stand firm, then we attain heaven. If we falter, then, well, you can guess.
13. See above. If God did not test our faith, then who would really be a true beliver? If God just said, "Yo, here I am." ,then everyone would go along with it. Not just those who were actually believers.
14.For those codes, we know only what God and others have told us is right.

i don't want to put words in Christian's mouths, being that i'm not one, but i think Christ was to show an example of how good a human can be. yes he was the son of god, but he was still human. kinda like, if Jeus could do it, so can you. i know he did miracles, but i think those were more to estabilish his credibility. the way he acted otherwise and his belief system were otherwise human and is meant to be an example. i might be wrong about this, most of the major Hindu Myths are set up this way so maybe i just have that slanted view.

On the premarital sex issue...If you really love someone and you have been with them for a long time do you really think that "God" would say your not married because of a stupid piece of paper? You can be married in your hearts, minds, and be completely devoted, but not legally be married. There are some benifits to not being legally married (I'm referring to financial problems) Would you see that as premarrital sex?

And back on the "attracted to the same sex acting on it" bit, lying is supposably a sin too, so dening yourself isn't right either. (kinda of a side note, but oh well.. And on a biological scale, homosexuality is a good thing...Reduced population. I'm expecting Earth to start plumuting. ) A LOT of "God's" creatures behave homosexually, and no one says anything about those. Many would argue that they don't know right from wrong, but if "God" didn't like it then why would he give them that instinct?


And off on my own little tangent again, how much of the modern day Christian faith do you (everyone here not necissarily directed at you Karlorn biggrin ) do you think is still the true Word? The most widely used version of the Bible is the King James Version, and he changed Bible to suit his own needs...The wierdest think about that was he was gay himself! A homo who is simply using his power in the country to control others, through their faith o.O *twitches and dies* if that doesn't scream blasphomy, then what does?? And people still read that thing and believe it gonk

I think everyone is getting a little off-topic from the original idea, so I'll just post my views for you to think about.

God made everything: good AND evil.
WHAT?! GOD MADE EVIL?!
Well, yes. If God gave you only good to take, or HIM, then that's not real love. If gives you a choice between Him or the things he says is wrong, then he is giving you free-will, something very favored among people. He wanted you to choose to love him.
As for a good person going to hell, unfortunately, if you have heard of Jesus and the fact that you must accept him as savior or you're not going to heaven and you have decided not to, well, I'm sorry, no matter what good deeds you do, You're going to hell. God gives us the choice to belive in Jesus, our Savior.
As for the fact that those who are saved go directly for heaven, evertime we ask for forgiveness, and truely try not to sin again(!important!), our sins are washed away, and we are as white as snow. You want your good deeds to count for something? Well, think of biulding a house in heaven in gold bricks. Everytime you do good, you'll be rewarded in heaven(it says so in the Bible). Everytime you do something bad and don't repent, you're taking a brick away.
God gives us one lifetime in a horrible place full of sin and our bad deeds because he doesn't want us to endure such bad things for so long. When on Earth, just think, would you rather try for reincarnation(sorry folks) or just go to a place where nothing is dead and every thing is full of life and beauty. Heaven is like earth(with all the features) just it is endless and there is no death. Think of the mountains, a beautiful place, with no rotting trees or parasytic things.
Things happen in your life time to test your faith or your loyalty. If one bad thing happens and you drop God like a rock, that's not faith. If your friends mess up time and time again, sure you're angry, but if they are truely sorry for putting you through things(which God is, note that he was very sad after the flood and promised never to do it again), then a good friend will forgive them and stick with right.
Excommunication? God says you don't judge, he judges! Kicking someone out of church is wrong!
There is way way. An easy way. The only thing that confuses us from this way is sin.
God is infinite, you cannot understand him. You cannot understand the infinite depth of the Bible. He doesn't ask you too. Just love him with all your heart and TRY to follow what his word says. Start with something simple, like the ten commandments.
Sorry for making this so long. I'll write a new reply to go with this.

-If god knows who will go to heaven and hell, what is the point of creating those who will go to hell?

-If god truly loved us, would he not make himself explicitly known, in such a way that would be unmistakeable, under any circumstance, to us?

-What is fair? Just? etc? There is always a majority consent in such a way that it is a democratic majority consent, to how such things are defined. (will go into further explanation on how the majority always decides, and how it is democraticly decided in every case, if requested)?
This is a quote to see what I'm writing withoput the whole thing.

God creates those who go to hell as he would everyone else. While, yes in the end, God knows what we'll pick. Those who go to hell are examples to those who don't. If he made no one that went to hell in the end, then everyone one would be Christians and there would really be no choice. God gives us choice. But, mind, I am not God. I cannot understand God. I am writing this out of my beliefs in God.

God does make himself explicitely known. People try to cover him up. Ever heard of Grunyans(I don't know if that's how you spell it)? Grunyans are thought to be a myth because they appear under such strange circumstances. They appear during a full moon at night in about five beaches in the world. They then JUMP onto their tails and lay their eggs. They only appear when the temperature is right. They let the wash drag them back out to sea after they lay their eggs. That is a wonder of God. NO animal would ever have to evolve to do that. God gave us that to inspire us. He made the rainbow. He made everything in mathematics blend seamlessly to other things, including the leaves on a tree(ever heard of fractals?). (PS, I know about Grunyans because of my grandma. Believe me she doesn't lie. She used this as an example for what I'm talking about now). As far as I'm concerned if you can't tell that there is some greater power in our world, you're in denial. I would also like to say the fossils of the leviathin have been found. It is also the dragon Chinese hold so high. My sister was supposed to be death, blind, dumb, cripple, all these things wrong with her if she was even going to live through child birth. My mom had a terrible blood sickness when Anna was in her womb that spread to Anna. My mom was on the brink of death as well. When my sister was born, she was small from being born far to early(C-section). Her heart stopped several times. It was confirmed she had a terrible virus that would kill her early by several doctors. Now? She is 17. She has trouble breathing during running due to small lungs and she has ADD which she has been able to control for the past few years very well. That virus? Doctors deny she had it at all, despite the fact that she was thourghly checked several times. She is not blind, death, or any of those things. My mom is alive. It's just chance? Denial.

People do not know what is fair. Majorities belive in things similarly. But, if you looked at all our beliefs with a magnifying glass, you'd be shocked to see the differences between even the most similar people. Oh, no! What do you do if no one agrees on what the Bible means? Read the Bible. Trust in God and ask for him to reveal the things YOU need to know. God gives us the things WE need individually. Because we cannot understand God, these things don't always fit exactly. Remember, you and another persons beliefs on something might be missing a 'puzzle piece'. You don't know what a puzzle looks like until you finish it. Do what you can here on Earth, but in heaven, you'll finish the puzzle no problem.

I know that God made evil, I have had to prove that to a few christians, and they were like "wha?"

As for the one life, that is the best explanation for it I have ever seen.

Though for the afterlife, I cannot imagine anything that could simply be beautiful without ever having to expierence any form of the opposite. You see, in this reality, we live in a realm where we must have things like sorrow and anger to experience things like joy and happiness. Quite simple, it is impossible for me to imagine such a place.

So, out of ignorance, I would say that heaven and reincarnation would be one and the same; because I cannot imagine such infinite happiness.

On excommunication (time for a little devil's advocate) What about the verses in the bible that say something similar to the following, "and if thy right hand offends thee, cut it off?" (I know it's in the New Testament, however, I do not konw where. I have never read it, and am slowly working my way through the OT, currently. Still in Exodus).

About fully believing something, I'm not sure you can "fully" believe something without "fully" understanding that thing. Meaning, for me to fully believe in God, I find it necessary to fully understand him. If I have anything less than a full understanding, I do not have a full belief in him. Why, then would it be advantageous for me to even attempt at believing in God?