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Posted: Sat May 07, 2005 1:03 am
[ Message temporarily off-line ]
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Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 10:41 am
This is an example of one of my favorite topics, perceived truth. The perception of another person as trash is purely dependent upon the one doing the perceiving, but percieved truth is also defined by the majority. If the majority of the people in the world do not share your perception of those people who you label human trash, then the percieved truth of your observation is false in the eyes of society. It may still be true in your own mind, but to the world at large, you will be the one who is wrong.
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Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 12:15 pm
While in a broad sense this is true, I find it misses the greater points of life by a long shot. The only thing you are guarenteed when you are born is to die. However, to simplify the lives of people to say the only reason they live is to die is extreme. People *cannot* live without meaning, and if you say that you can, you're probably decieving yourself. For even believing such a thing is placing meaning on life. People make what they wish to of life. A lot of what you wrote here reminded me strongly of Adlerian psychoanalysis. You should read up on it, I think you'd like it. Adler basically states that we all have physical organ inferiorities which are subjectively perceived as we compare ourselves to others. Thorugh that, we strive to compensate for these inferiorities by either striving for success or superiority. Success striving is healthy and involves goals which are altruistic and benefit society, while superiority striving involves only those goals which serve the self. The emphasis on luck amused me. There's really no such thing as luck. A person becomes successful because they reach out and set themselves into sittuations where these so-called 'lucky breaks' can have a chance to happen. For example, I joined a biology club on my college campus and volunteered to design the T-shirt. As a consequence, the guy who does T-shirts for the campus at that time happened to need a new graphic artist, so I got the job. Was it luck? No. It was good fortune, but it never would have happened if I had not joined that club and volunteered to do the T-shirt design. I also find the rattling on those with dreams in this post here a bit over the top. Instead of judging someone negatively if they have this dream that they do not appear to be persuing, ask yourself WHY this is instead of branding them with irons. Better yet, ASK them why they aren't doing it. Maybe they've just gotten complacent? Maybe they don't see they're off track and need someone to set them on it again? As for stupidity, I find the subtle philosophical bigotry and intolerance suggested in the post a far more worse disease that stupidity could ever hope to be. To even suggest that those who one claims are 'lesser' do not deserve respect and kindness to me is just morally distasteful. The elitists who hold this view are bad as, if not worse than the people they are belittling. Standards of 'greater' and 'lesser' are extremely relative and while everyone has the right to set them, when one begins to be an intolerant bigot to those who don't fall within their realm of standards, that's where a line needs to be drawn. It's that sort of thing that has lead to opression of minorities throughout history, both legally and culturally.
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Posted: Mon May 09, 2005 11:28 pm
I am going to have to agree with Starlock on several points here.
I disagree that we live to die. Do you live, in order to die? Or is dying simply an end to your life? I think that there is some faulty reasoning here.
Also, when there are people involved, there is no such thing as 'normal.' However, if by 'normal' you mean 'average' -- then normal' people have experienced many levels of pain and pleasure both.
Without 'dreams' and 'fantasies,' we as the human race would not be where we are now. Do not ever downplay importance of 'dreams' and 'fantasies.'
I also agree with Starlock in that there is no such thing as luck. 'Luck' would be more accurately defined as opportunities that arise. (Often life-changing.)
I will agree with you that too many people live in their dreams, and thus are unable to live life. As philosophers, as those who have come from our cave, it is our duty to show them the way out.
On your last topic, the topic of trash. (Your supposed favorite topic.) If you ever take anything in your life to heart, take this one thing to heart: We are all people. Each and every individual is just as much of a person as you.
-Alezunde
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Posted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:04 pm
I think that dreams are what seperate us. Yes, I think that we are all individuals, I mean we all think different things about everything. However, It is the people who dream that advance us to the stars.
And not all the time trash spawns trash. However it happens a bit. I grew up in an upbringing that is "not normal" and am not "trash" at all.
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Posted: Thu May 12, 2005 6:38 pm
Hmmm...an interesting topic, although it seems you contradict yourself several times although I will not go into that.
Anyway, I think your views on the human trash theory are a little harsh. Just because you were bown to or raised from a "trashy" society, does not entitle you to a life of second-class nonentity standing. Personally, I know many individuals who have risen above their roots to become very successful people. It all relates back to the whole nature vs. nuture conundrum.
As far as dreams go, I think that I have to agree with Starlock and Alezund. Dreams keep us going. Face it, if you didn't have a goal for life, why would you keep going? Reaching for the impossible is part of human nature. WE want to be the first to achieve something never deemed possible before. ea: landing on the moon.
That relates right back to your opinion about living to die. I didn't realize we had the choice to be born or not. So we cannot possibly be born to die, because it wasn't our choice in the first place! Secondly, if your life's fufilment would be in death, I think there would be a lot more suicides, don't you? So if 6 trillion people believe that they have a reason to keep on living, maybe they do.
Whoever it was (forgive me for not remembering) who spoke of the perception of man, I'd like to link it to my new-found interest in QUANTUM PHYSICS! (even if I can't spell it) Whatever you percieve is true, in its essense. You create your own reality. Therefore, even if everyone else in the world says the chair I'm sitting on isn't here, but I see that it is, the chair is still there. And in our own minds all of us are right.
I'll post more later.
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Posted: Sun May 15, 2005 12:36 pm
bonkiep Whoever it was (forgive me for not remembering) who spoke of the perception of man, I'd like to link it to my new-found interest in QUANTUM PHYSICS! (even if I can't spell it) Whatever you percieve is true, in its essense. You create your own reality. Therefore, even if everyone else in the world says the chair I'm sitting on isn't here, but I see that it is, the chair is still there. And in our own minds all of us are right. This is an interesting post... I had a big long thing about something relating to your post, but it's way off topic, and I put it in another thread. Beyond that, I can't think of anything to say that hasn't been said already. This actually sounds like a case of teen angst to me... I don't mean that in a condescending way. A fair number of people I know have this view, and they are often some of the most intelligent people I know.
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Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 2:39 pm
I skipped to the "trash" part of this post, because it's the part I'm most disturbed about.
My parents, especially my dad, aren't the most intelligent or lucky people in the world. But, as my dad says, for the most part you can make your own luck with persistance and hard work. Funny, he made nearly $100,000 this last year.
Hard work and persistance will get you much farther in life than simple intelligence. Anyone is capable of hard work, so I would say that no one is trash. You have ideas that are elitist and actually wrong.
Oh, and there is nothing wrong with having dreams or goals. On the contrary, people who don't have dreams have no motivation to get anywhere with their lives. And "the majority of people can't live without a meaning"? Where do you come up with this? People need a meaning to go on with their lives. Everyone does. People don't just exist in limbo without a purpose or meaning, you know.
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Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:29 pm
[ Message temporarily off-line ]
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Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 5:59 pm
Kalile Alako Phaedrus17 Oh, and there is nothing wrong with having dreams or goals. On the contrary, people who don't have dreams have no motivation to get anywhere with their lives. And "the majority of people can't live without a meaning"? Where do you come up with this? People need a meaning to go on with their lives. Everyone does. People don't just exist in limbo without a purpose or meaning, you know. I agree with you... however, can you prove it? That's the thing; P2Prince may well be correct in his post. So I don't agree with the arbitrary nature of the last sentence: Quote: People don't just exist in limbo without a purpose or meaning, you know. That is not neccesarily true. You feel it to be true, and so do I, most of the time, but you can't just dismiss his idea out of hand in favor of one that has not been reasoned out. I could be wrong, but it seems that you are engaging in a fallacy; "everyone knows that..." which isn't true. I didn't say that "everyone knows that," I said that everyone has to have a purpose or meaning. Yes, it is provable. If a person has no purpose, they have no goals, short-term or long-term. A sense of purpose is created when we have something that we feel we need to do, whether for ourselves or for others. These are goals. If a person has no goals, what is their reason for living? They have nothing to look forward to. They have no drive, direction, or reason to exist. Even if a person's only goal is to keep living, they have some goal in their lives. People with no goals have no reason to keep eating or even breathing. Therefore, it is safe to say that all people have goals, and therefore all people have purpose, even if that purpose is merely to continue their own existence. Scientifically, all creatures that are alive must retain the will to live and to carry on their existence through reproduction. Therefore, there is also a scientific purpose to each person's life. As for a meaning, what is a meaning in the first place? It is what a person means, right? Well, that's not actually a full statement, because a person can't just mean something, they mean something to someone or to something. Therefore, if a person means something even to themselves, their life has meaning. If a person's life means nothing, once again, he/she will have no reason to continue living it.
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Posted: Sun Jun 12, 2005 8:55 pm
Alright, I understand now what you are saying. I didn't mean that you actually said "everyone knows that...", I meant that it seemed that you were using the force of the collective knowledge when you said Quote: People need a meaning to go on with their lives. Everyone does. People don't just exist in limbo without a purpose or meaning, you know. It sounds like you are stating simple, common knowledge that everyone knows. That's all I meant. You didn't explain what your definitions of purpose and meaning were, but you did admirably in your next post.
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Posted: Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:05 pm
True though it is that people have a biological reason for their existence, the mere stament of a NEED for a moral/social/etc. goal doesn't preclude its existence. There are many people in life who don't exactly know why they exist, but are too afraid of death to "stop living." So in a sense, they are in that limbo mentioned before.
This is, I think, where religion came into the mix of things. Human beings wanted an "ultimate goal" for life and a connection to something bigger than themselves to justify their existences. Rant end.
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