|
|
| Free will? |
| Yes |
|
83% |
[ 5 ] |
| No |
|
0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Maybe so |
|
16% |
[ 1 ] |
|
| Total Votes : 6 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
 Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:21 pm
Mkay so if we read scripture in Exodus we can see that when Moses told Pharoh to let his people go, he said no. The scripture explicitly states that he did this because God hardned his heart.
My Bible study, being the crazy individuals we are, decided to debate this. The idea was how can God do that if he's given us free will? We make our own choices so, in theory, Pharoh could have been like "Mkay have fun in the Promise Land Hebrews! Catch ya later!" But God made it so he wouldn't do that.
So this makes it sound like God has all our decisions planned out, which to some may mean that he makes us sin. Puritan predestination anyone? Becasue that makes it sound like God has chosen already who's going to heaven and who's going to hell.
Of course, that's a very extream view which I don't hold. BUT I was just putting it out there.
After the debate, I ended up with the idea that God basically has this whole map of every descision we will make and it's outcome. So we still have to choose to follow him, but he still has thigns planned for us.
Discuss:
What you think about free will vs predestination
Why God hardened Pharoh's heart
Anything else relevant
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:38 pm
God's plan and free will. These seem to be two contradicting statements.
I think since God creates each one of us, he knows what we will choose to do. At least as far as major things.
God is like everyone's really good friend. When you're that good of a friend with somebody, you can finish each other's sentences. It doesn't mean you can't choose what you say, but your friend knows what you probably will say.
I don't think of Satan as a corporeal being, but more like collective evil and sin and all that. So I guess God is your nature, but Satan is your nurture. If you get what I'm saying.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:41 pm
Okay...so I don't know enough to actually make a solid argument-type thing, but I will give my 2 cents on the whole free-will vs. predestination thing.
Pretty much, instead of separating them, they're together. How I came to this conclusion?
God is omnipotent, omipresent, and omniscient, which is all-powerful, umm..everywhere at once, and all-knowing.
It's hard to explain, but the question that kind of backs up my reasoning is this: Considering God is all-knowing, and we have free will, wouldn't he already know the choices we were going to make, regardless of if we've already made them or not?
So like, we have free will, but God knows us so well, that He already knows every decision that we will make in any given situation, and not that it was a "written in stone" type thing.
xd That probably didn't make sense, but that's my take on the free will vs. predestination thing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:36 pm
We definitely have free will, and that's part of humanity's sin nature. If we didn't have free will we wouldn't be able to choose not to sin (or sin, as the case sometimes is). But like everyone else was alluding to, God knows the outcome. It's not so much predestination as it is God just knows. But then there is God's will, which can go along quite nicely with free will. It's kinda like, no matter what you do, God's will is going to happen, like it or not. If you try to kill yourself and God really doesn't want you to, then that's where you get miracles.
As far as Pharoah having his heart hardened, that goes along with what I said before. It was part of God's will for His people to be stuck in Egypt, so that God could display His power and the Hebrews would worship and praise Him. If Pharoah was just gonna give in, then there wouldn't be a chance for that. So in order for God's will to be done, God had to go in and change some things, including Pharoah's heart. He still had his free will, it's just that now it was made to coincide with God's will.
|
|
|
|
|
|
High-functioning Businesswoman
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 11:30 am
Dang, so that's how you spell Pharoah... I knew Pharoh didn't look right, but I couldn't figure it out.
Anyway, I like the think that God used Pharoah as an instrument to show his power. Kind of like a "I can do this, but I'm not going to normally" kind of like the virgin Mary becoming pregnant.
As for free will vs destiny, there's a passage in Moby d**k that sums up my belief. But instead of describing the whole thing... I'll sum it up XP But go read Moby d**k! It's actually a very, very good book.
Basically there are things that we cannot change and are predestined. But how we react to these things is free will, which we can change. And every now and then, something called chance interferes whihc could be the hand of God, or something unplanned to everyone.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:06 pm
God's plan is like a huge piece of paper that we can't even see the edges of if we traveled forever, and the writing is small that we can't even see it with a microcope.
We are all an integral part of it, whether we want to be or not.
We may not understand, but God knows.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Thu Jul 27, 2006 10:44 pm
I kind of don't understand how we have free will if God already knows what we're going to do. I mean, we can't surprise him, so how is it free will? Especially if we're worked into a design, and complete the reason why we're here no matter what choices we make in life?
That's my opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:34 am
Just because He already knows doesn't mean we don't have the choice. God's just ten steps ahead of us. We have the choice, but He knows what we'll do. Like the best friend analogy- they still have the choice; you just know what they're going to decide.
And the reason we're here is completed through our own choice, especially if we are saved. If you're following Jesus, the purpose you set for yourself is ultimately the purpose He set for you way back before there was time. You still have free will.
|
|
|
|
|
|
High-functioning Businesswoman
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:26 am
Fushigi na Butterfly Just because He already knows doesn't mean we don't have the choice. God's just ten steps ahead of us. We have the choice, but He knows what we'll do. Like the best friend analogy- they still have the choice; you just know what they're going to decide.
And the reason we're here is completed through our own choice, especially if we are saved. If you're following Jesus, the purpose you set for yourself is ultimately the purpose He set for you way back before there was time. You still have free will. You always have a very good way of explaining things XP
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 11:37 am
What do you mean by "free will"? (there are different degrees of "free will")
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:50 pm
thejesusfreak What do you mean by "free will"? (there are different degrees of "free will") By free will I mean that we choose our own destiny. We make choices and it's not predetsined for us. So people have this idea that God had our every move planned out before we were even born, like the Puritans. They basically believed that God had already decided who was going to Heaven and who was going to Hell before they were born. So the question is do I decided to go party it up and have sex and get drunk? Or is it already written that I'll do that? Check out the scripture about God hardening Pharoah's heart as well, that raises some good questions. So basically it's do we make our own choices or are they alreday decided for us.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Fri Jul 28, 2006 1:56 pm
I know that we have free will. If we didn't, we'd just be a bunch of puppets dancing to His strings. God didn't want that. He wants us to CHOOSE Him. Now, that doesn't mean that God doesn't intervene. Like Pharoah. Like Mary. Like Jesus. Like Jesus being betrayed. Each of them had a certain, specific purpose, and each of them was a tool for God. If he'd left it ENTIRELY to free will, Jesus would never have died for us. Recall how many times he wanted to back out? The only thing that kept him going was that it was his Father's will. And Joseph... he didn't have to stick by his fiancee, but he did. Jesus didn't have to pick the people he did as disciples, yet there they are. He knew the people who would say yes.
I always thought of God as a movie director. Someone who knows the script and the outcome, and yet can reach in a hand at any time at tweak it to their liking.
Does any of this make sense?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
High-functioning Businesswoman
|
Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:11 pm
That's a good way of looking at it, ryuu.
@Liz: Thanks. It's not me speaking though; the Holy Spirit gives me the words to say, so you can understand Him better. 3nodding
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:25 pm
Fushigi na Butterfly That's a good way of looking at it, ryuu.
@Liz: Thanks. It's not me speaking though; the Holy Spirit gives me the words to say, so you can understand Him better. 3nodding Fantastic. The Holy Spirit must understand I'm really bad with words and easily confused xd
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
High-functioning Businesswoman
|
Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 1:27 pm
Probably. Not saying that I think you're bad with words. eek Man, that came out wrong. sweatdrop
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Reply
