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Grudgehammer

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:04 pm


The reason why a lot of people in the U.S. are intolerate of religion is because this country was founded on greed and racism. Heck, I don't why the white immigrants from England didn't think of reproducing with the Indians when they first came to America. Discuss.
PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:05 pm


Also, for the record I am Christian.

Grudgehammer


A Murder of Angels
Captain

PostPosted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:13 pm


It bothers me when someone says that just as much as it bothers me when someone says America was founded based on Christian principals.

If American were founded on Christian morals, first of all, Christianity would be the state religion, and second, there would be less or no freedom of religion. Keep in mind the Constitution was written AFTER the foundation of this country.

This country was founded on Masonic principals. Almost all (if not actually all) of the Founding Fathers were Freemasons.

Freemasonic values include: the belief that people should pray the way they choose and believe what they choose to believe, that all human life is sacred, and that the wealthy should help the poor.

If you don't believe me, take a look at the back of a one dollar bill... And specifically the pyramid. At the top of the pyramid is the all-seeing eye, one of the most powerful symbols in Masonic tradition. "Annuit Coeptis" is latin and means "God has favoured our undertakings." "Novus Ordo Seclorum" translates to "A new Order of the ages." A New World Order. That's exactly what America is, and what it was meant to be when it was created by the Masons.

Now, as to your claims of America being founded on greed and racism, first, let me explain a bit about Masonry at that time. The Masonic brotherhood was by invite only. (Now you can request to join, but times have changed.) It also happened that it was an elite society and most of the members were upper class. They only invited in people they saw as "worthy" of joining. And they would never allow a slave. Even when members were not prejudice, they wouldn't invite a person of colour because of what the majority of other members would think.

This is different from racism though. A white slave, or even a white middle-class citizen would not be invited either.

Getting away from the Masonic arguments, I feel obliged to say that every culture in the world owned slaves at one time or another. In fact, even black people in Africa owned other black people in Africa at the same time as this was going on in the US. I also feel obliged to say that not all of the Founding Fathers wanted slavery to be allowed in the first place, but ended up agreeing for the sake of unity.

And as far as greed goes, I can see why you'd say that now, but at the founding of this country you couldn't be further from the truth. I personally believe that Capitalism causes greed. However, Capitalism is also a way for poor people to become rich, provided they do everything right. and that is the reason this country was set up as a Capitalistic country. If wasn't to be "greedy", but rather to give ordinary people a chance to move up or down on the scale and not have to rely on others.
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 5:13 pm


Racism and greed were very much present on the time, but I don't think it was the basis for our country.

And as for religious intolerance, they deliberatly chose not to base our laws on a single religion, because of the variety of religions. Besides, the first amendment implies religious tolerance.

SyphaBelnades


Tigress Dawn

Hygienic Noob

PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2005 6:58 pm


Actually the basis this country was founded on was freedom. Quakers were moving here because they were getting their noses slit just for being a Quaker. They moved over here. Why? It was the land of the free, where they wouldn't be persecuted for their religion like they were in Europe.

If you want to get technical about slavery in the US, black people started it all (and possibly racism) for themselves in the first place. Before, over in Europe, a black person for a slave was a sign of tremendous wealth because they were rare to come across. However, black people started to sell captured members from other tribes to the slave boats, and soon it got to the point where they were selling their own tribesmen for money. Eventually, white man decided they could easily just capture the people themselves, it would save the money they were paying these tribes. So really its their own damn fault they were enslaved in the first place. But I digress.

The point is, the country wasn't founded on greed or racism. Those came a bit later when we started having trouble with the Indians.
PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 11:26 am


I don't quite know how to respond to this. Although I find this very interesting so I hope my opinion is to serve of some purpose. Our country was made because people didn't like how the way things ran in England (and other countries but England is one of the main ones). Some of it was religion, some of it money, junk like that. What I wanna take into consideration is the Puritans. They were very strict and totally cruel. In my opinion they weren't exactly as Christian as they made themselves out to be. Why?
1) Love is a main key in Christianity. Yet they shunned anybody who put a toe out of line. Obviously they didn't care for the phrase "Hate the sin, Love the sinner."
2) Murdering people cuz of their sins was thought of as cleansing the nation of evil. By murdering they didn't really respect life which is also a commandment in the Christian religion. And most people they murdered for "good cause" were actually innocent. They only reason they got killed was due to...
3) Rumors. In proverbs it speaks many times about keeping a "wise tongue" and to not spread "evil words." But if you did something thought of as "different" you got rumored about and suddenly you're Satan's spawn!
So to be honest I don't know how our country came about. I just think we had a very bad start which explains why right now we're having a bad time.

ScarredImage


Captain Jack Sporky
Crew

PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2005 1:06 pm


Just to add on to the things above, I have to say that we had a very good start, but things went downhill from the point where we started persecuting Indians-so, not exactly a very long period. sweatdrop
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:11 am


colonies which were started explicitly to provide religious freedom for the groups which founded them include massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Maryland and Rhode Island.

my folk came to PA from Germany, France (Alsace Lorraine) and Holland, to escape persecution.

except in PA, however, the groups which came to America to avoid intolerance were not tolerant of competition with their views.

Here is a good site that talks about this curious state of affairs:
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel01-2.html

chessiejo


chaoticpuppet
Crew

PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 10:00 am


chessiejo
colonies which were started explicitly to provide religious freedom for the groups which founded them include massachusetts, Pennsylvania, Maryland and Rhode Island.

my folk came to PA from Germany, France (Alsace Lorraine) and Holland, to escape persecution.

except in PA, however, the groups which came to America to avoid intolerance were not tolerant of competition with their views.

Here is a good site that talks about this curious state of affairs:
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/rel01-2.html


From my understanding, Holland, since about 1550 had been very tolerant of other religions.
PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2005 2:14 pm


hmm...thats interesting. i think that the united states isnt racist, but bush is. he considers EVERY muslim is a terrorist and he convinces everyone that they are. i bet if he could, he would recreate the Holocaust.

fraid9451902


Triste

PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2005 3:38 pm


aqbar10
hmm...thats interesting. i think that the united states isnt racist, but bush is. he considers EVERY muslim is a terrorist and he convinces everyone that they are. i bet if he could, he would recreate the Holocaust.

I don't think his views are that extreme, though I do think he is extremely biased.
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2005 6:59 pm


Captain Jack Sporky
Just to add on to the things above, I have to say that we had a very good start, but things went downhill from the point where we started persecuting Indians-so, not exactly a very long period. sweatdrop



Well, the whole thing with the indians is why I said what I said. Sorry if I offended anyone with what I posted.
sweatdrop

Grudgehammer


Captain Jack Sporky
Crew

PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 6:17 pm


aqbar10
hmm...thats interesting. i think that the united states isnt racist, but bush is. he considers EVERY muslim is a terrorist and he convinces everyone that they are. i bet if he could, he would recreate the Holocaust.
You've got it all wrong. MOST Muslims AND Arabs. I don't think he would initiate a Holocaust though. Also, a lot of his decisions are made for him. And about 1/3 of America agrees with him. (Radical conservatives, that is.)

No offence is intended to anyone by this post.
PostPosted: Sat May 14, 2005 8:24 pm


Captain Jack Sporky
aqbar10
hmm...thats interesting. i think that the united states isnt racist, but bush is. he considers EVERY muslim is a terrorist and he convinces everyone that they are. i bet if he could, he would recreate the Holocaust.
You've got it all wrong. MOST Muslims AND Arabs. I don't think he would initiate a Holocaust though. Also, a lot of his decisions are made for him. And about 1/3 of America agrees with him. (Radical conservatives, that is.)

No offence is intended to anyone by this post.

Well, we cannot quite conclude that 1/3 of all americans agree with Bush. We could say, however, that 52 some odd million of between 275-300 million agree with Bush. Which, if you do the math, is less than 1/3.

chaoticpuppet
Crew

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Religious Tolerance

 
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