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 Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:21 am
Alright. As we have learned from KH and KH2, a "complete" person has a heart, a soul, and a body. The body is the container for the heart and soul, the soul is what animates the body, and the heart (supposedly) contains memories and emotions. Without all three components, a person cannot truly "exist."
The definition of the heart is what seems off to me.
Take Roxas, for example; while he was in the virtual Twilight Town, he may not have remembered anything about the Organization, but he was still a Nobody. Memories or lack thereof do not change the fact that he had no heart. And yet Roxas was obviously experiencing emotions. He had a fairly wide range of them, too: happiness, confusion, guilt, sadness, determination, anger, hate... he's even seen to laugh at one point.
Furthermore, the other Organization members show emotion sometimes as well, outside the understandable desire for a heart... though whether or not they were actually feeling anything can be questionable, I suppose, since they may have been pretending to fool Sora. Still, Axel certainly at least appeared to have strong feelings of friendship towards Roxas, and he seemed angry and hurt when Roxas couldn't remember him. Axel's actions could not be rationally explained unless one assumes that his feelings were genuine.
I can't really make a strong case for any of the others, but the fact remains that without a heart, Roxas and Axel should not have been capable of feeling things they obviously felt.
Now, if one can still feel without a heart, what about memory? You could use Roxas as a supporting argument here (he couldn't remember Sora until Naminé started putting them back together), but since at this point Sora himself didn't remember anything, I can't really say it would be a strong argument. Besides, there's the other members of the Organization.
If I remember correctly, it was at some point in KH2 mentioned (in an Ansem Report, I think) that it was normal for Nobodies to remember who they had been. Roxas was the exception, not the rule. At the very least, Xemnas certainly had memories of being Ansem's apprentice Xehanort. What they couldn't remember is what it was like to have a heart... which brings me back to my orginal question.
What is a heart?
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Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:43 am
Actually some of the stuff you said makes sense. But hear's what I think the Organization can show emotion out of the fact that they still have their memories of their original selves. Kinda like they remember how to feel but they can't so their memories make them feel and show emotion. And I can't remember who said but one of the Organization members told Sora that they remember what it was like to have hearts. I think it was Saix at Raidant Gardens.
Now, what I can say is that I agree with you that Axel was the odd duck of the Organization, it really did look like he had emotion, who knows, maybe he was able to hold onto a little peice of his heart but not enough to be called "whole".
And as far as the "3 components[sp?] of life" go. I agree with you one the body containing the soul and the heart. but here's what I think:
The heart holds emotion,
and the soul holds the memories.
My reasoning for this is that, while the nobodies didn't have hearts, thus no emotion, they still had their memories, with the exceptions of Roxas and Namine. And also when Sora was turned into a heartless in the first game, he was telling Kairi [I think???] that, as a heartless, he started to forget things, like who he was and that Kairi somehow called him back.
And I think that perhaps KHIII will have something to do with the 12 freed souls of Organization XIII, and perhaps the 11 remaining heartless as well. But that's just my theory.
Let's not forget that while Roxas was in the Mansion he unlocked the computer room by completeing a darwing on the table. The drawing, for those that weren't really paying attenion, had 3 circles in a triangle formation hinting that they were all some how connected in some small way. One circle had the nobody symbol and another had the heartless symbol. But the last circle was blank until Roxas got Namine's drawings and then he was able to complete the last circle. Sadly though because Roxas' hand was in the way I couldn't see what the symbol looked like... I'm sure that symbol will belong to the enemy in the next game, perhaps the "soul-less"? Who knows, maybe I just think too much.
And I know that I totally didn't answer your question, in truth I think no one could really know. They even said in KH that the heart is a very mysterious thing.
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Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:10 am
Quote: But the last circle was blank until Roxas got Namine's drawings and then he was able to complete the last circle. Sadly though because Roxas' hand was in the way I couldn't see what the symbol looked like... I'm sure that symbol will belong to the enemy in the next game, perhaps the "soul-less"? Who knows, maybe I just think too much. It was the Crown symbol, like the necklace sora wears and what appears when he opens a gateway in KH2. *begin conspiracy theories*
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Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:15 am
You can kinda see it for about a split second right as the table starts to glow and as his hand moves right to left you can kinda put the picture together.   Hard to get screens of it. >.<
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Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 9:56 am
Shadedsoul Actually some of the stuff you said makes sense. But hear's what I think the Organization can show emotion out of the fact that they still have their memories of their original selves. Kinda like they remember how to feel but they can't so their memories make them feel and show emotion. And I can't remember who said but one of the Organization members told Sora that they remember what it was like to have hearts. I think it was Saix at Raidant Gardens. Now, what I can say is that I agree with you that Axel was the odd duck of the Organization, it really did look like he had emotion, who knows, maybe he was able to hold onto a little peice of his heart but not enough to be called "whole". And as far as the "3 components[sp?] of life" go. I agree with you one the body containing the soul and the heart. but here's what I think: The heart holds emotion, and the soul holds the memories. My reasoning for this is that, while the nobodies didn't have hearts, thus no emotion, they still had their memories, with the exceptions of Roxas and Namine. And also when Sora was turned into a heartless in the first game, he was telling Kairi [I think???] that, as a heartless, he started to forget things, like who he was and that Kairi somehow called him back. And I think that perhaps KHIII will have something to do with the 12 freed souls of Organization XIII, and perhaps the 11 remaining heartless as well. But that's just my theory. Let's not forget that while Roxas was in the Mansion he unlocked the computer room by completeing a darwing on the table. The drawing, for those that weren't really paying attenion, had 3 circles in a triangle formation hinting that they were all some how connected in some small way. One circle had the nobody symbol and another had the heartless symbol. But the last circle was blank until Roxas got Namine's drawings and then he was able to complete the last circle. Sadly though because Roxas' hand was in the way I couldn't see what the symbol looked like... I'm sure that symbol will belong to the enemy in the next game, perhaps the "soul-less"? Who knows, maybe I just think too much. And I know that I totally didn't answer your question, in truth I think no one could really know. They even said in KH that the heart is a very mysterious thing. Ah, that's true about the heart = emotions and soul = memories thing. I hadn't thought of that. sweatdrop I had thought the memories were based in the heart because of Sora's memories being "chained together within his heart," quoth Naminé. Your explanation makes more sense, though. smile However, the one unexplainable thing is how Roxas, unable to remember Sora and unaware that he was a Nobody, was able to feel. Then again, Roxas is special. wink I'd still like to eventually find out KH's definition of a heart, though. Hopefully we will find out in KHIII. smile Oh, and, I don't think there's actually going to be a "soul-less," as you put it; Nobodies have both body and soul, and are lacking only a heart. If there were no soul within the body, it would be dead. wink And yeah, the symbol for the soul is a crown. smile
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Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:16 am
This is very very interesting ninja
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Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:57 am
Xykk Quote: But the last circle was blank until Roxas got Namine's drawings and then he was able to complete the last circle. Sadly though because Roxas' hand was in the way I couldn't see what the symbol looked like... I'm sure that symbol will belong to the enemy in the next game, perhaps the "soul-less"? Who knows, maybe I just think too much. It was the Crown symbol, like the necklace sora wears and what appears when he opens a gateway in KH2. *begin conspiracy theories* Thank you! I was trying to see what it was.
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Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:11 pm
Katarael This is very very interesting ninja Isn't it, though? 3nodding
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Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:26 pm
Mikrana Oh, and, I don't think there's actually going to be a "soul-less," as you put it; Nobodies have both body and soul, and are lacking only a heart. If there were no soul within the body, it would be dead. wink This is true lol. But the same could be said about a missing heart too. So I guess the rule of thumb is, if you have at least 2 "components" of life then you can have a soild shape. But heartless are just hearts right? So how does that work out? here's something that kinda bugs me a little. Nobodies have the body and soul but not the heart. And the heartless are just a heart right? Then why are the called heart less if they are only hearts... ? So I guess what I should say is, what's in a name? [ gonk ] It could be that souls are the only thing left of a nobody when it's destoryed and, like a heartless, it could take on a form of it's own. that would be an interesting concept now wouldn't it?
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Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:04 pm
Shadedsoul Mikrana Oh, and, I don't think there's actually going to be a "soul-less," as you put it; Nobodies have both body and soul, and are lacking only a heart. If there were no soul within the body, it would be dead. wink This is true lol. But the same could be said about a missing heart too. So I guess the rule of thumb is, if you have at least 2 "components" of life then you can have a soild shape. But heartless are just hearts right? So how does that work out? here's something that kinda bugs me a little. Nobodies have the body and soul but not the heart. And the heartless are just a heart right? Then why are the called heart less if they are only hearts... ? So I guess what I should say is, what's in a name? [ gonk ] It could be that souls are the only thing left of a nobody when it's destoryed and, like a heartless, it could take on a form of it's own. that would be an interesting concept now wouldn't it? I belive that the heartless form there bodies out of the darkness, that is if I'm not mistaken. And that the nobodys do have herts but not the hearts that are needed to be whole, that perhaps theire hearts are made of darkness like the bodys of the heartless. Perhaps souls can create the other two components out of darkness as well.
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:59 pm
hakari-kun Shadedsoul Mikrana Oh, and, I don't think there's actually going to be a "soul-less," as you put it; Nobodies have both body and soul, and are lacking only a heart. If there were no soul within the body, it would be dead. wink This is true lol. But the same could be said about a missing heart too. So I guess the rule of thumb is, if you have at least 2 "components" of life then you can have a soild shape. But heartless are just hearts right? So how does that work out? here's something that kinda bugs me a little. Nobodies have the body and soul but not the heart. And the heartless are just a heart right? Then why are the called heart less if they are only hearts... ? So I guess what I should say is, what's in a name? [ gonk ] It could be that souls are the only thing left of a nobody when it's destoryed and, like a heartless, it could take on a form of it's own. that would be an interesting concept now wouldn't it? I belive that the heartless form there bodies out of the darkness, that is if I'm not mistaken. And that the nobodys do have herts but not the hearts that are needed to be whole, that perhaps theire hearts are made of darkness like the bodys of the heartless. Perhaps souls can create the other two components out of darkness as well. that's exactly what I was thinking of. IT would be an interesting concept none the less, wouldn't it?
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 5:57 pm
Shadedsoul hakari-kun Shadedsoul Mikrana Oh, and, I don't think there's actually going to be a "soul-less," as you put it; Nobodies have both body and soul, and are lacking only a heart. If there were no soul within the body, it would be dead. wink This is true lol. But the same could be said about a missing heart too. So I guess the rule of thumb is, if you have at least 2 "components" of life then you can have a soild shape. But heartless are just hearts right? So how does that work out? here's something that kinda bugs me a little. Nobodies have the body and soul but not the heart. And the heartless are just a heart right? Then why are the called heart less if they are only hearts... ? So I guess what I should say is, what's in a name? [ gonk ] It could be that souls are the only thing left of a nobody when it's destoryed and, like a heartless, it could take on a form of it's own. that would be an interesting concept now wouldn't it? I belive that the heartless form there bodies out of the darkness, that is if I'm not mistaken. And that the nobodys do have herts but not the hearts that are needed to be whole, that perhaps theire hearts are made of darkness like the bodys of the heartless. Perhaps souls can create the other two components out of darkness as well. that's exactly what I was thinking of. IT would be an interesting concept none the less, wouldn't it? I think the Light and the Dark aren't like the Body, Soul, and Heart. The Heartless lose their hearts to the darkness, therefor have no hearts. The Darkness replaces the need for a body and the other conponents needed to be "alive". And what would be the point of having three conponents for life if you just need one to produce the others? The only question is if a Nobody like Lexaus(sp?) uses the power of Darkness how does he have it without a heart?
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Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:54 am
Rath62 Shadedsoul hakari-kun Shadedsoul Mikrana Oh, and, I don't think there's actually going to be a "soul-less," as you put it; Nobodies have both body and soul, and are lacking only a heart. If there were no soul within the body, it would be dead. wink This is true lol. But the same could be said about a missing heart too. So I guess the rule of thumb is, if you have at least 2 "components" of life then you can have a soild shape. But heartless are just hearts right? So how does that work out? here's something that kinda bugs me a little. Nobodies have the body and soul but not the heart. And the heartless are just a heart right? Then why are the called heart less if they are only hearts... ? So I guess what I should say is, what's in a name? [ gonk ] It could be that souls are the only thing left of a nobody when it's destoryed and, like a heartless, it could take on a form of it's own. that would be an interesting concept now wouldn't it? I belive that the heartless form there bodies out of the darkness, that is if I'm not mistaken. And that the nobodys do have herts but not the hearts that are needed to be whole, that perhaps theire hearts are made of darkness like the bodys of the heartless. Perhaps souls can create the other two components out of darkness as well. that's exactly what I was thinking of. IT would be an interesting concept none the less, wouldn't it? I think the Light and the Dark aren't like the Body, Soul, and Heart. The Heartless lose their hearts to the darkness, therefor have no hearts. The Darkness replaces the need for a body and the other conponents needed to be "alive". And what would be the point of having three conponents for life if you just need one to produce the others? The only question is if a Nobody like Lexaus(sp?) uses the power of Darkness how does he have it without a heart? I think the whole "using the power of darkness" thing is a quick fix solution. The body and soul struggle to survive so they attach themselves to the nearest power to stay alive and what else is better than the very thing that took the heart away in the first place? But quick fix solutions are rarely permenent. If that were true then the Organization might have seen this or at least the first 6 members, being that they studied the heart before they lost theirs so they decided to find a longer lasting solution to their problem. The solution they came up with was to make new hearts for themselves since their old ones were lost to darkness. As for the heartless, I think its just a heart wrapped in darkness. The heart will always look for the good in things, and according to KH logic, good = light. therefore the heartless are always searching for light to take, and they don't care if it belongs to someone else or not.
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Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:00 pm
 I think that the one reason that Roxas and Namine are so different from the other Nobodies is that who they originally were didn't remain Heartless. Axel, I don't know... But, that's just my 2 cents.
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Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:01 pm
Shadedsolace Mikrana Oh, and, I don't think there's actually going to be a "soul-less," as you put it; Nobodies have both body and soul, and are lacking only a heart. If there were no soul within the body, it would be dead. wink This is true lol. But the same could be said about a missing heart too. So I guess the rule of thumb is, if you have at least 2 "components" of life then you can have a soild shape. But heartless are just hearts right? So how does that work out? here's something that kinda bugs me a little. Nobodies have the body and soul but not the heart. And the heartless are just a heart right? Then why are the called heart less if they are only hearts... ? So I guess what I should say is, what's in a name? [ gonk ] It could be that souls are the only thing left of a nobody when it's destoryed and, like a heartless, it could take on a form of it's own. that would be an interesting concept now wouldn't it? Yeah, I never understood that, either.
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