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 Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:13 pm
We've all heard this line over, and over, and over again. In debate, in the P.C.G. In our personal lives.
But you also realize that because some pro-choicers hold religious beliefs that don't have a problem with abortion.
Here's my question.
Isn't fighting for the right to kill your unborn child because your religion doesn't frown upon it, in a sense, forcing your views on women who will attain an abortion in the future and later regret it?
Think about it. Everyone stamps the stereotype of a homophobic, Bible-thumping, Republican on every single Christian, right?
Why don't pro-choicers realize that Christians are not pro-life because of their religion, but the other way around?
Yet, there is another side to this. Christianity, Judaism, and Muslim are religions that personally aren't huge fans of abortion.
"ZOMG! Are you saying that you can't be pro-choice and Christian/Jewish/Muslim?"
Well . . . like I said. I'm a Catholic because of the thoughts I harbour. One of those thoughts is that every life is sacred, within, and outside, the womb.
I just think it's kind of weird to worship a God who contradicts your beliefs, but I'm not saying that because you're of a certain religion, you have to believe this or practice that without fully undersanding or respecting or embracing what you're doing.
Discuss. Please don't flame the Ebbers.
sweatdrop
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Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 4:22 pm
And many of them go on to try and proove that your own riligion dosn't hold anythign agianst abortions. Many of these types are th eones who understand little to nothing of your riligion to begin with.
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Posted: Tue Jul 04, 2006 6:33 pm
Quote: "ZOMG! Are you saying that you can't be pro-choice and Christian/Jewish/Muslim?" I'm not, they are. Last I checked, Judaism and Islam aren't a happy bunch of Choicers. And of course, Cafeteria Christians picks and choose what they please.
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:55 pm
I'm an atheist.
Explain that one. rolleyes
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 4:54 pm
La Veuve Zin I'm an atheist. Explain that one. rolleyes That's when someone doesn't believe in a God at all. *Buddum-ching* Get it? I explained aitheism? ...Don't look at me like that!
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:17 pm
Not all people pick their religion based on being pro-life though. For instance like Le Veuve Zin, I'm not Christian either and yet stanchly pro-life. In fact my religion doesn't really have a stance on abortion. We revere life, however that includes all life.
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:43 pm
Which is exactly my point.
Most people follow a religion because it doesn't contradict their beliefs, not the other way around.
But there're people like you and Zin who hold their religious beliefs dearly, as well as their stance on abortion.
Since your religion doesn't have much of a stance on abortion, I suppose your being pro-life would contradict your religion's guidelines, right?
I don't know. I just think it's weird to be pro-choice and still claim to be apart of a religion that celebrates and respects the sanctity of life, but not because religion is a factor when it comes to your beliefs, but the other way around.
A lot of pro-choicers seem to fail realizing this. Some do, and they're good people, and very kind and decent individuals, but I can count on my hands how many I've seen that're like that.
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Posted: Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:50 pm
Ebony the Peacian Vampire Which is exactly my point.
Most people follow a religion because it doesn't contradict their beliefs, not the other way around.
But there're people like you and Zin who hold their religious beliefs dearly, as well as their stance on abortion.
Since your religion doesn't have much of a stance on abortion, I suppose your being pro-life would contradict your religion's guidelines, right?
I don't know. I just think it's weird to be pro-choice and still claim to be apart of a religion that celebrates and respects the sanctity of life, but not because religion is a factor when it comes to your beliefs, but the other way around.
A lot of pro-choicers seem to fail realizing this. Some do, and they're good people, and very kind and decent individuals, but I can count on my hands how many I've seen that're like that.
I believe abortion should be illegal for legal reasons more than anything. If it wasn't illegal to kill humans I would be pro-choice. And I think it's acceptable that an anarchist be pro-choice. Other than that however I think being pro-choice is completely foolish, as legally speaking, there are too many holes in the logistics of it.
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Posted: Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:25 pm
I wasn't implying that because you follow a certain religion, you must blindly follow the traditions and guidelines, regardless of your beliefs not as a loyal Catholic, Pagan, Jew, whatever, but as a human being who can distinguish right from wrong.
I'm just saying that I think it's a little weird to be pro-choice and still claim to worship a god that believes all life is sacred, within the womb or not.
But your religion doesn't contradict your beliefs because, as you said, your religion is neither pro-life or pro-choice, and, also, like you said, is interpeted differently between different Pagans. I can understand that.
But what I don't understand is how someone can support the right to kill a child within the womb and still claim to be apart of a religion that doesn't.
I hope that all made sense.
sweatdrop
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Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:22 pm
I.Am La Veuve Zin I'm an atheist. Explain that one. rolleyes That's when someone doesn't believe in a God at all. *Buddum-ching* Get it? I explained aitheism? ...Don't look at me like that! Seriously, it seems most people are like, "pro-life....atheist?! WHA!?!? WHAWHAWHA?? does...not...compute..!" *head 'splodey*
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Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:57 pm
Ebony the Peacian Vampire I wasn't implying that because you follow a certain religion, you must blindly follow the traditions and guidelines, regardless of your beliefs not as a loyal Catholic, Pagan, Jew, whatever, but as a human being who can distinguish right from wrong.
I'm just saying that I think it's a little weird to be pro-choice and still claim to worship a god that believes all life is sacred, within the womb or not.
But your religion doesn't contradict your beliefs because, as you said, your religion is neither pro-life or pro-choice, and, also, like you said, is interpeted differently between different Pagans. I can understand that.
But what I don't understand is how someone can support the right to kill a child within the womb and still claim to be apart of a religion that doesn't.
I hope that all made sense.
sweatdrop I don't know, either. Perhaps they have simply lost all feeling within their hearts, and really don't view unborn humans as actual humans. Well, humans. I should say, any creature. I can't imagine any animal wanting to kill their young...people can be so incredibly cruel and cold. Or maybe, they want the right to choose, and their morals would normally get in the way of that. So, they simply choose not to think about a fetus as a life. That way, they don't have to risk feeling guilty later on. They can just say, "Well, it was my body. My choice. I didn't hurt anyone but myself, so no one can get upset about it." Just a theory. Saying that someone who could so brutally murder an innocent baby without one bit of remorse actually has a heart is giving them a bit too much credit, though.
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Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 11:50 am
La Veuve Zin I.Am La Veuve Zin I'm an atheist. Explain that one. rolleyes That's when someone doesn't believe in a God at all. *Buddum-ching* Get it? I explained aitheism? ...Don't look at me like that! Seriously, it seems most people are like, "pro-life....atheist?! WHA!?!? WHAWHAWHA?? does...not...compute..!" *head 'splodey* Yeah, when I dropped the A-bomb in the abortion debate I threw off everyone.
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Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 5:17 pm
Funny, I can't force my religion on them since i'm not in one.
When well people get that not all pro-lifers are Christians, read the bible or even in a religion at all? I'm more agnostic.
Besides i'm against abortion except for a few cases like life and death (with is often rare since more people that get abortion are health and have enough money to pay for one rolleyes ), i'm against it cause I see it as murder and to me that's wrong and common sense not to kill except for self-defense, survive (animals for food), and death penalty for proven murders, More like save the innocent people not the evil people type thing.
Yah I also find it weird that their all for killing babies (yes a fetus is a baby, just unborn but they don't believe me, they said " you got that from a Christian dictionary". 1. no I didn't. I told them I wasn't in a religion and 2. I got it from a medical dictionary since my mom used to work at a hospital so she should know more about it then them and still have medical books, so what it's over 15 years old, the defantion of a fetus isn't going to change really, geez). Yet some believe in a God that's against it? Something wrong there confused
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Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 8:16 pm
Dropping the A-bomb should not be the only weapon that brings such accusations to a screeching halt. The problem is this idea that those of a faith that condemns abortion can't possibly say anything of value in this debate because their minds are brainwashed by religion and they cannot think for themselves. Only those who either rebel against their faith, identify themselves as having no religion or have a faith that allows them to choose their own stances can be respected because...well...they go against the crowd. They must be free thinkers. That's an insult to the rest of us who are genuinely trying to seek the Truth and have found some answers is a different place.
When I say that I'm not saying that it's those who say "well I'm an athiest" are the ones doing the insulting. I think it's wonderful that such a diverse group can be united under this cause (and you are great people). What I find insulting is the one listening to the same opinion from two different people will respect one and scorn the other because of creed...or if your treatment has changed for the better because it was discovered that your creed is not the one they assumed it to be...even if the subject of creed was never in play in the first place.
Despite being a Catholic, I don't bring Catholic morality into it simply because 9 times out of 10...my target "audience" is not Catholic, or does not share the same view of Catholicism as I do. Better to make secular points to make that can be understood by everyone then bring my relationship with God into the picture and fight a two-way battle to defend both the pro-life stance and my religious beliefs.
I'm not a one-trick pony. If I'm debating the morality of abortion to another Christian and whether or not it is an offence to God, then of course I'll bring religion into it...that's the topic at hand. But as far as claiming that it is an offence to Man, then I will bring up points relevent to all humans, regardless of creed.
If you figure out that I'm a conservative Catholic through my guild memberships and post history, I commend you for your research skills. However if I do not bring such things to the abortion debate table, the question of my forcing my faith down your throat is completely irrelevent and is no more than a mere attack on the straw man. I can't force down it down if I never even mention it. I believe abortion to be an offence to both God and Humanity, not just God. If I can't talk in terms of God...I can still definately talk about it in terms of Humanity.
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Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 7:52 am
yes, i'm pretty much the same way. i find it easier to avoid religion in the abortion debate because of the assholes who would instantly deem me a dunce.
and i also like the ones who call religion a "crutch", acting all tough and self- sufficient, but then they are the first ones to drink, use drugs, take pills and get abortions. because THOSE aren't crutches at all. stare
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