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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 3:54 am
I have my own opinion on this and for the longest time I assumed most martial artists shared this. This came to mind in talking with my head master and fellow apprentices and a recent post made me curious on the opinions of everyone else here.
We have a student trying to earn an instructor appenticeship at the academy and when critiquing him on what we thought he needed to improve apon and the biggest one was sparring. When he heard this he stated he that sparring was the only part of martial arts he didn't like because he didn't approve of fighting. The head master stated that, "Fighting is for thugs... martial artists spar." After hearing this my fellow apprentice said that, "Fighting begins you intentionally strike someone in a match without protective gear." I blew my mind that both my fellow apprentice and the student looked at sparring so harshly.
So where do you guys think sparring becomes fighting?
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 6:24 am
That's a good question. It's also tough to answer. Not as much because of its nature, but because of the many opinions that surround it. Lots of people have lots of views on this subject. That being said, here's my opinion:
Sparring is a way of testing your skill. It really has little to do with fighting. I mean, in a fight, you are defending or attacking, right? Whether you're defending yourself, a friend, or (in most cases) your ego. Or you're attacking those in someone else.
True sparring is about learning. Although you may attack and defend, you are not trying to hurt the opponent. Now that we're through with that, I'd like to say that it is untrue biggrin , well, to an extent.
In some sparring, you may actually try to hurt your partner (a better name than opponent) in order to really test both of you. Hence the existance of full contact sparring. Why is this different from "fighting"? The only real answer that I can give you is "Intention".
The intent of the practice is to learn/teach. I can fight bare-knuckled with someone and be sparring, or I can do the exact same thing and be fighting. The difference is the intent and purpose of the action.
Some people look down on sparring, calling it savage. The fact of the matter (uh, my fact, not necessarily yours biggrin ) is that martial arts are (and, I hope, always will be) MARTIAL arts. "Martial" pertaining to war or military. No matter how spiritual or enlightened you get, the truth is that these arts were made for combat, and should be treated accordingly. If that is the case (and I feel it is), then would you have an unexperienced soldier go into battle? Would you not try to prepare him for what he must do? If you've never fought (as I have not), you won't be fully prepared no matter what you do, but sparring is the best thing you can do to get yourself ready (or close to).
There's many different kinds of sparring also. Taiji has push hands, Wing Chun has Chi-Sau. Many arts have many drills and sparring techniques. There are many degree's of sparring. It's best to find one that suits you.
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 10:50 am
As Hixton said, the line is drawn at intent. Both before, during and after. If at any point either side opts to take it a step further its a fight. The next step being easily reconizable as actual hostility.
On a side note: If someone thinks sparring is barbaric, I honestly think they should take up another hobby, as you cannot get better without it. Atleast not in the Martial aspect.
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 12:45 pm
Threx As Hixton said, the line is drawn at intent. Both before, during and after. If at any point either side opts to take it a step further its a fight. The next step being easily reconizable as actual hostility. On a side note: If someone thinks sparring is barbaric, I honestly think they should take up another hobby, as you cannot get better without it. Atleast not in the Martial aspect. I agree completely. Why bother with martial arts? There's a whole world of gardening and golf out there.
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:00 pm
I dont really know but i love both!! heart
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 1:42 pm
The spiritual part of martial arts is based on combat. Not necessarily physical but at leats mental combat, and the acquiring of peace through and during combat. Wich is why even in Aikido you have to do improvisation exercises.
If there is no combat, there is no spiritual side, no forging of character, no combat experience.
What is left is a pathetic (wo)man that makes a silly dance.
This is not martial arts. This is dancing and pretending you're something you're not - a martial artist.
These people can moonwalk their way out the dojo for all I care, they can teach me nothing in the end.
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 2:02 pm
I'd have to disagree, everyone can teach you something. Even if they just are a way of you seeing your own prejudice against them. In the end, that must go too.
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:36 pm
well my opinion is from a boxing sparring session percpective so here it is: i consider boxing sparring and BOXING itself the same exact thing, only with a little less anger because u dont wanna kill your peer twisted . on the other hand, i do believe that sparring and fighting are two different things, because in a real fight there are no rules.
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Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2005 8:35 pm
I'm glad to see that you guys acknowledge the levels of intent. That's how I was brought up by my head master... I suppose my mind was just blown by anyone thinking the difference came before that. I like being considered a hostile and dangerous sparrer xd but it almost hurt when my fellow apprentice called me a hostile and dangerous fighter. crying
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Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 2:32 am
I stick by what I said. If someone is making a sequence of movements without having the essence of combative spirit, this person can only teach me an empty form.
I'd rather learn to tango, then.
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Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 4:15 am
JoshuaKenzo I stick by what I said. If someone is making a sequence of movements without having the essence of combative spirit, this person can only teach me an empty form. I'd rather learn to tango, then. You make forms seem like such a bad thing... I find though that people who focus more on forms than sparring are can sometimes be better sparrers. eek Honestly, I don't have trouble sparring people that love to spar but hate forms. Most of them don't flow with their movements making them slower, they become very predictable, and their balance is just terrible. These are somethings that forms can help you learn... especially when you start to do creative forms. So don't think you can't learn anything from the form addict. It may not be directly combative but it can still be to your advantage.
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Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 7:07 am
I love both sparring and fighting, but i bring my martial arts into the street for the challenge. I know it may sound crazy, but these are my thoughts when i get in a street fight. You can say i am bringing it to the next level. But lets be real here, martial arts is a fighting style i think back in the days they uesed it in wars and stuff. I think martial arts should be use in a real combat. Sparring is great and all but you don't even come close to a real figth.
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Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2005 11:19 pm
Amylin JoshuaKenzo I stick by what I said. If someone is making a sequence of movements without having the essence of combative spirit, this person can only teach me an empty form. I'd rather learn to tango, then. You make forms seem like such a bad thing... I find though that people who focus more on forms than sparring are can sometimes be better sparrers. eek Honestly, I don't have trouble sparring people that love to spar but hate forms. Most of them don't flow with their movements making them slower, they become very predictable, and their balance is just terrible. These are somethings that forms can help you learn... especially when you start to do creative forms. So don't think you can't learn anything from the form addict. It may not be directly combative but it can still be to your advantage. I don't think that he was trying to make forms look bad. I think what he was saying, and I agree, is that martial arts are not JUST pretty forms. There is, like he said, combative spirit. Merely going through th emotions is NOT practicing martial arts. That being said, just fighting isn't martial arts either. There is no art in that. Just look at the words "martial" and "art". If you're just doing one, you're not doing the full practice. You shouldn't waste your time. Forms ARE very helpful. The are important to your learning. Otherwise they would not exist. You both made great points. TheGurentai: I hope you don't mean that you start those fights. I will assume you meant that when they HAPPEN, that is when you test your martial art. Martial arts are not about protecting or enforcing your ego. Mind, body, and spirit. Those are what you try to cultivate as a martial artist.
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 8:50 am
TheGurentai: I hope you don't mean that you start those fights. I will assume you meant that when they HAPPEN, that is when you test your martial art. Martial arts are not about protecting or enforcing your ego. Mind, body, and spirit. Those are what you try to cultivate as a martial artist.
Yeah i don't start fights. Usually i just ask for a challenge if the guy thinks he is all that. But there are times people just want to fight me to prove something.
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Posted: Sat Apr 16, 2005 12:42 pm
Indeed, I have nothing against forms or learning them. In kendo we learn that to make your sparring as effective as possible, you mist first make your kendo beautiful. This is good form.
My point is that if you take up martial arts without the intention of engaging in physical or at least mental fight, you are not learning martial arts anymore.
You're learning fancy moves. My point is, I can DO the fancy moves, I can LEARN the fancy moves. But why should I if they do not bring me any closer to the essence of my martial art?
Yes, form is important even crucial, but combative spirit is an essential part of form.
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